Should Churches be non-denominational?

[Cornelius]

OK, so I can take it that you see "your Church" as "the people of God" (my people ) so this verse must then apply only to your Church:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

If God is not speaking to the Church here as "his people", then who is He speaking to ?

The author of Revelation is, in a symbolic way, telling Christians to "come out" of worldly ways, symbolized by "Babylon the Great" (Rome).

...and here comes some oft-debunked Dave Hunt-Lorraine Boettner-Jack Chick "Whore of Babylon=the Catholic Church" tripe. You have nothing substantial to say, so let-er-rip.

On the contrary. I do not believe the RCC is THE Whore of Babylon. I believe the WHOLE church system is the Whore at this moment.The RCC is only part of the Whore.Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

As you say, the whole church has joined with the world and now God is calling "his people" (are you one of "His people" ?) out of the worldly ways. You now have to separate yourself along with all who are called "His people" and come out of the worldly "church". The Harlot is guilty of the blood of ALL the saints, so the RCC cannot be the Harlot by herself, she only has PART in it, as she too killed the saints in her time. That does qualify her as part of the Harlot indeed. History confirms this !


All religion that brings their own fruit as a sacrifice is part of the Harlot. The first member of the Harlot was Cain. He killed the first saint, because his "fruit of the earth" (own works) were rejected by God while God accepted Able's offering (Grace)

 

[Adullam]

You do not seem to understand the difference between human government and the church. The verse you cited is concerning temporal government. We are not to break the law since we are no longer under it's power. We are to be at peace with all men whenever possible giving proper respect where appropriate. We are not to needlessly provoke the existing authorities. Our comportment is to be blameless.

I believe that you have stated elsewhere that God has "rejected the temporal order". Well, Paul does not agree with that. If God truly has rejected the temporal order, why is He so busy establishing human governments?

I am fully aware of the church - government distinction. It is you who are saying that God has rejected human instutions. All I am doing is producing words from Paul that show otherwise.

LOL Your service is appreciated! I think? I see you don't understand what I'm talking about. You see one-dimentionally. Except when you have Jesus reigning over the tyrants of the world and not doing a thing to correct them...and this to support your amazingly flawed view. There you have a false dualism so that you make up a new reality as you go along. (hopefully not drug-induced) You truly don't see any difference between temporal governments and the church of Christ. This is astounding! :crazy


What you have seized on might seem to be a major coup to you. A one dementional victory...or a mis quote that seems to feed your need to correct deeper things with shallow responses. But what God has rejected at this time is the temporal order in the Body of Christ. I have said this many times. These are contrary to each other. The church is not a temporal organism. The whore of Babylon is the mixture of the temporal order with the eternal revelation. Governments will fall and this world and it's systems will pass away...and so will the religious idolators that lust after the temporal powers...but the church of Christ shall rule with Him for ever. We are discussing the church on a Christian site....not temporal politics on a political blog. I'm here to help you with these things! :yes

 

[Cornelius]

The author of Revelation is, in a symbolic way, telling Christians to "come out" of worldly ways, symbolized by "Babylon the Great"

So are you?

 

[dadof10]

The wordly systems must also be abandoned. We need only one Mediator Jesus Christ.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men – the testimony given in its proper time. (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Those who set up worldly hierarchies will answer to God.

What do you mean by "worldly systems"?

 

[dadof10]

A worldly system uses human means to achieve it's goal. The true church operates in submission to the Holy Spirit in the power of the Holy Spirit. Heavenly means are used to accomplish divine objectives. So there is an eternity of difference. :yes

What is highly esteemed among men is abomination to God.

The NT is not an exhaustive list of what not to do...but a testimony of what God is doing. Rather than looking for loopholes as any lawyer would do, the practice of the truth ensures the establishment of the truth.

There are many references to the authority of the church coming from and operating from on high. Anything less than that is carnal and worldly. We are called to walk as Christ...in the same power and walk....the divine walk of the follower of Christ.

Here is an example of a rebuke to the carnally minded....

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Some may say....we are of Peter. Although this may seem as an oversight by Paul, it is reasonable to say that those who claim to be following Peter and his successors are as carnal as those who claimed the source of other men. To not see this is willfull blindness.

I just saw this definition of "worldly systems" after I wrote my last post, and it's kinda vague. Would you consider a corporation a "worldly system"? A small business? Government? Please be specific. Thanks.

 

[dadof10]

On the contrary. I do not believe the RCC is THE Whore of Babylon. I believe the WHOLE church system is the Whore at this moment.The RCC is only part of the Whore.Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

As you say, the whole church has joined with the world and now God is calling "his people" (are you one of "His people" ?) out of the worldly ways. You now have to separate yourself along with all who are called "His people" and come out of the worldly "church".

First of all, as I asked Adullam, define "worldly ways". Do you mean sin? Secondly, I belong to the Church of Acts 15, which is visible and has an authoritative hierarchy. You have been dodging my references to the first ecumenical council in Jerusalem for about a month now. I know you have to because they had a SYSTEM in place for dealing with doctrinal disputes, which involved a group of men being in authority over others with the power to "bind and loose". They weren't just a loose group of "believers" who split from each other at the least hint of discord.

As I've said on more than one occasion, this is how the CATHOLIC CHURCH operates even now (and many Protestant denominations, for that matter). You, however, do not operate in this way. In fact, you call the Churches that DO operate this way "worldly" and "whores".

If we are looking for the "Biblical Church", like your quote from a book (website?) on another thread claims to do, then why won't you take Acts 15 and the early Church's way of settling disputes into consideration? Why no mention of it AT ALL?

 

[dadof10]

The author of Revelation is, in a symbolic way, telling Christians to "come out" of worldly ways, symbolized by "Babylon the Great"

So are you?

As soon as you define "worldly ways", I'll answer your question.

 

[Cornelius]

First of all, as I asked Adullam, define "worldly ways".

I will make you a deal: I will explain worldly ways to you, if you first explain the "Rest of God" in Hebrews 4 to me.

Do you mean sin? Secondly, I belong to the Church of Acts 15, which is visible and has an authoritative hierarchy.

If you indeed belonged to the church of Acts 15, then you would do the works of the church in Acts 15. Saying we belong to the church is not enough in the New Testament. We can ONLY be part of the church of Acts, through our fruit. Our works /walk/fruit show this to be true. Nothing we SAY makes it so, we have to SHOW. Your denomination has showed plenty through the years and they do not resemble the church in Acts 15.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?


I am not making ANY statement about your denomination, that is not based on the fruit that you manifest to the world. I judge them by their fruit and they are lacking.

You have been dodging my references to the first ecumenical council in Jerusalem for about a month now. I know you have to because they had a SYSTEM in place for dealing with doctrinal disputes, which involved a group of men being in authority over others with the power to "bind and loose". They weren't just a loose group of "believers" who split from each other at the least hint of discord.

When did I say that I do not submit to the authority in the church? I have elders above me. I have apostles, pastors, teachers, prophets and evangelists that I submit to.But they do not lord it over me. They all serve me, and I have true love for them. I respect them with all my heart and I serve them too the best I can , out of love.

As I've said on more than one occasion, this is how the CATHOLIC CHURCH operates even now (and many Protestant denominations, for that matter). You, however, do not operate in this way. In fact, you call the Churches that DO operate this way "worldly" and "whores".

I look at their fruit.

If we are looking for the "Biblical Church", like your quote from a book (website?) on another thread claims to do, then why won't you take Acts 15 and the early Church's way of settling disputes into consideration? Why no mention of it AT ALL?

Who said I do not? What I see in what people call "church" or "Church" is a far cry from Acts.People WANT me to just accept they are OK, because they claim things. You say you are part of THE CHURCH. Then SHOW me. LIVE like the apostles.Walk like Jesus.BE and overcomer. Do not go to the world for your solutions, protection etc. SHOW me, by manifesting Christ, so that I can call you a Christ-in person. Stop telling me about an organization that you call "Church" and BE Church to me.

I tell you the truth, that I love you and do not hate you. But I do hate what people have done to you.I hate the systems of men that they claim to be the systems of God. I hate what it has done to sincere people like you. I hate to see you holding on to that which men have sold to you as THE TRUTH and then they created fear around this, so you cannot let go and question it. The oldest trick in the book. Like a spiritual 9-11 they make you fearful of you loosing your salvation if you left THEM, because they are IT !

I do not post on Catholic forums, but I read. I am so, so saddened by the fear. There is only confusion. I read about how a woman was worried about her babies salvation, because he grabbed the bread and ate it and then spat it out. She was so worried and scared ! Then the "councilor" told her the "correct way" was to have taken a tissue , pick it up and take it to a priest who would have the authority to correctly dispose of the "body of the Lord" God knows its a lot of baloney and the "Church" is FULL of it.

 

[Cornelius]

First of all, as I asked Adullam, define "worldly ways".

I will make you a deal: I will explain worldly ways to you, if you first explain the "Rest of God" in Hebrews 4 to me.

Do you mean sin? Secondly, I belong to the Church of Acts 15, which is visible and has an authoritative hierarchy.

If you indeed belonged to the church of Acts 15, then you would do the works of the church in Acts 15. Saying we belong to the church is not enough in the New Testament. We can ONLY be part of the church of Acts, through our fruit. Our works /walk/fruit show this to be true. Nothing we SAY makes it so, we have to SHOW. Your denomination has showed plenty through the years and they do not resemble the church in Acts 15.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?


I am not making ANY statement about your denomination, that is not based on the fruit that you manifest to the world. I judge them by their fruit and they are lacking.

You have been dodging my references to the first ecumenical council in Jerusalem for about a month now. I know you have to because they had a SYSTEM in place for dealing with doctrinal disputes, which involved a group of men being in authority over others with the power to "bind and loose". They weren't just a loose group of "believers" who split from each other at the least hint of discord.

When did I say that I do not submit to the authority in the church? I have elders above me. I have apostles, pastors, teachers, prophets and evangelists that I submit to.But they do not lord it over me. They all serve me, and I have true love for them. I respect them with all my heart and I serve them too the best I can , out of love.

As I've said on more than one occasion, this is how the CATHOLIC CHURCH operates even now (and many Protestant denominations, for that matter). You, however, do not operate in this way. In fact, you call the Churches that DO operate this way "worldly" and "whores".

I look at their fruit.

If we are looking for the "Biblical Church", like your quote from a book (website?) on another thread claims to do, then why won't you take Acts 15 and the early Church's way of settling disputes into consideration? Why no mention of it AT ALL?

Who said I do not? What I see in what people call "church" or "Church" is a far cry from Acts.People WANT me to just accept they are OK, because they claim things. You say you are part of THE CHURCH. Then SHOW me. LIVE like the apostles.Walk like Jesus.BE and overcomer. Do not go to the world for your solutions, protection etc. SHOW me, by manifesting Christ, so that I can call you a Christ-in person. Stop telling me about an organization that you call "Church" and BE Church to me.

I tell you the truth, that I love you and do not hate you. But I do hate what people have done to you.I hate the systems of men that they claim to be the systems of God. I hate what it has done to sincere people like you. I hate to see you holding on to that which men have sold to you as THE TRUTH and then they created fear around this, so you cannot let go and question it. The oldest trick in the book. Like a spiritual 9-11 they make you fearful of you loosing your salvation if you left THEM, because they are IT !

I do not post on Catholic forums, but I read. I am so, so saddened by the fear. There is only confusion. I read about how a woman was worried about her babies salvation, because he grabbed the bread and ate it and then spat it out. She was so worried and scared ! Then the "councilor" told her the "correct way" was to have taken a tissue , pick it up and take it to a priest who would have the authority to correctly dispose of the "body of the Lord" God knows its a lot of baloney and the "Church" is FULL of it.

 

[Adullam]

A worldly system uses human means to achieve it's goal. The true church operates in submission to the Holy Spirit in the power of the Holy Spirit. Heavenly means are used to accomplish divine objectives. So there is an eternity of difference. :yes

What is highly esteemed among men is abomination to God.

The NT is not an exhaustive list of what not to do...but a testimony of what God is doing. Rather than looking for loopholes as any lawyer would do, the practice of the truth ensures the establishment of the truth.

There are many references to the authority of the church coming from and operating from on high. Anything less than that is carnal and worldly. We are called to walk as Christ...in the same power and walk....the divine walk of the follower of Christ.

Here is an example of a rebuke to the carnally minded....

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Some may say....we are of Peter. Although this may seem as an oversight by Paul, it is reasonable to say that those who claim to be following Peter and his successors are as carnal as those who claimed the source of other men. To not see this is willfull blindness.

I just saw this definition of "worldly systems" after I wrote my last post, and it's kinda vague. Would you consider a corporation a "worldly system"? A small business? Government? Please be specific. Thanks.

A worldly system is one that is state recognized as a legal entity. A legitimate institution of temporal society.

Those who have tasted the eternal life know that this is going 180 degrees the other way from establishment in the heavenlies. If we are going the way of the world...we are walking away from God. Worldly ways are for carnal fallen man. The Way in Christ is for those who have left the world behind in order to follow Christ. Whoever looks back to the world is not worthy of Him. The cross of Christ is the power that separates us from the world and the desires of this world.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[Drew]

Except when you have Jesus reigning over the tyrants of the world and not doing a thing to correct them...and this to support your amazingly flawed view.

I know how appealing it is to believe that Jesus cannot be presently enshrined as King and lord of all, since we still have problems in the world.

However, the scriptural case is clear and, as per a previous post, you have mounted precisely zero successful counterarguments against it.

This is important - the reader needs to know that the transcript of this and the other related thread show a large number of scriptural arguments for the present reigning kingship of Jesus over this temporal world.

And you have provided not one successful response to these arguments.

The following arguments have been put forward that Jesus presently reigns, none of which have been successfully countered:

1. Acts 4 and its quotation from Psalm 2 - shows Jesus presently reigns over the temporal domain;

2. Mark 14 and allusion to Daniel 7 - Jesus quotes from Daniel and tells Caiaphus that He (Jesus) will be enthroned in Caiaphus' lifetime;

3. 1 Corinthians 15 - Jesus must reign until all enemies are under his feet, with only the last enemy being death;

4. Paul's appeal to a kingdom model that draws on Old Testament precedent of rulers governing this present world;

5. Argument about the "no king but Ceasar" rhetoric must mean that Jesus was understood as claiming to be a king that replaces Ceasar as lord of this world;

6. Matthew 28, where Jesus clearly claims to have already been given authority of the earth.

What do we get in response? Entirely unsubstantiated, undefended assertions about a duality of "reign in the heavenly domain" and "reign in the earthly domain", agumented by unsubstantiated, undefended assertions that the former comes first, and the latter comes second.

 

[Adullam]

Except when you have Jesus reigning over the tyrants of the world and not doing a thing to correct them...and this to support your amazingly flawed view.

I know how appealing it is to believe that Jesus cannot be presently enshrined as King and lord of all, since we still have problems in the world.

However, the scriptural case is clear and, as per a previous post, you have mounted precisely zero successful counterarguments against it.

This is important - the reader needs to know that the transcript of this and the other related thread show a large number of scriptural arguments for the present reigning kingship of Jesus over this temporal world.

And you have provided not one successful response to these arguments.

The following arguments have been put forward that Jesus presently reigns, none of which have been successfully countered:

1. Acts 4 and its quotation from Psalm 2 - shows Jesus presently reigns over the temporal domain;

2. Mark 14 and allusion to Daniel 7 - Jesus quotes from Daniel and tells Caiaphus that He (Jesus) will be enthroned in Caiaphus' lifetime;

3. 1 Corinthians 15 - Jesus must reign until all enemies are under his feet, with only the last enemy being death;

4. Paul's appeal to a kingdom model that draws on Old Testament precedent of rulers governing this present world;

5. Argument about the "no king but Ceasar" rhetoric must mean that Jesus was understood as claiming to be a king that replaces Ceasar as lord of this world;

6. Matthew 28, where Jesus clearly claims to have already been given authority of the earth.

What do we get in response? Entirely unsubstantiated, undefended assertions about a duality of "reign in the heavenly domain" and "reign in the earthly domain", agumented by unsubstantiated, undefended assertions that the former comes first, and the latter comes second.

Find me first scriptures that disprove that spiders have 12 legs, the sky is orange, and pigs can fly. Ridiculous assertions are a dime a dozen.

 

[Drew]

Find me first scriptures that disprove that spiders have 12 legs, the sky is orange, and pigs can fly. Ridiculous assertions are a dime a dozen.

Surely you do not think this is an acceptable answer.

In this and the other thread, I have provided detailed scripturally grounded arguments that show that Jesus is presently reigning over this temporal order.

These arguments are clear. You have simply ignored many of them. Others you have responded to, but your objections were then satisfactorily addressed.

The impartial reader will be very interested to know how your position on this matter stands, since there are multiple uncountered arguments on the table that show otherwise.

 

[Adullam]

Find me first scriptures that disprove that spiders have 12 legs, the sky is orange, and pigs can fly. Ridiculous assertions are a dime a dozen.

Surely you do not think this is an acceptable answer.

In this and the other thread, I have provided detailed scripturally grounded arguments that show that Jesus is presently reigning over this temporal order.

These arguments are clear. You have simply ignored many of them. Others you have responded to, but your objections were then satisfactorily addressed.

The impartial reader will be very interested to know how your position on this matter stands, since there are multiple uncountered arguments on the table that show otherwise.

Your reasoning stemming from a misunderstanding of spiritual things has beguiled you from the simple reality that we experience via a sound perception of the state of the worldas it is today. You are comfortable in your delusions...please don't share those delusions with others. Phychiatric wards are full of people that confuse reality with their own beliefs. There is enough confusion already without adding more invisible clothing to the emperor of our limited minds. There is an instability to the mind that will obstinately hold to a doctrine for no profit. A partial ruling???? Which part? The confusion is endless.


Rather, the bible says that Jesus will come Physically to take over the kingdoms of this present world...SO THAT ALL WILL SEE IT! Not just the delusional few who claim something is good, when it is not. Crying peace, peace, where there's no peace.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all thetribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with powerand great glory.

Notice that all men will see the coming of the reign of Christ. This will take place in the reality that you are trying to alter presently.

 

[Drew]

Your reasoning stemming from a misunderstanding of spiritual things has beguiled you from the simple reality that we experience via a sound perception of the state of the worldas it is today.

This is not correct. The scriptures are with me on this issue - Jesus is presently enthroned as King of this world. You seem to think that the continued existence of sin and death in the world disproves this. Well, I suggest that the proper approach is to accept what the scriptures say - and they are clear that Jesus is presently enthroned - and try to understand how to reconcile that with the present state of the world.

And that is not hard to do - kingship is a project. Consider the analogy to the President. Your line of thinking would have us believe that Barak Obama cannot be President because all the promises he made have not yet come true.

Jesus is reigning over the world right now, and the sorry state of the world today does not trump that clear Biblical fact - the kingdom of God is not yet fully expressed or consummated.

But it is here right now. And Jesus presides over it.

 

[Drew]

You are comfortable in your delusions...please don't share those delusions with others. Phychiatric wards are full of people that confuse reality with their own beliefs. There is enough confusion already without adding more invisible clothing to the emperor of our limited minds. There is an instability to the mind that will obstinately hold to a doctrine for no profit. A partial ruling???? Which part? The confusion is endless.

I can understand why you resort to this tactic. It appears very often in this forum. Person A asserts position X, Person B shows through clear Biblical argument that position X is false, and then Person A suggests that Person B has lost his marbles.

Why? Well. because Person A, unwilling to change his position in light of clear Biblical evidence, has no choice but to impugn the mental fitness of Person B. That is the only option left open to Person A in light of the fact that he has lost the battle on the scriptural front.

 

[Drew]

Rather, the bible says that Jesus will come Physically to take over the kingdoms of this present world...SO THAT ALL WILL SEE IT! Not just the delusional few who claim something is good, when it is not. Crying peace, peace, where there's no peace.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all thetribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with powerand great glory.

Notice that all men will see the coming of the reign of Christ. This will take place in the reality that you are trying to alter presently.

Matthew 24 has been addressed in some detail in other threads (most in the End Times section). I believe that you misinterpret it, and that it really refers to events that have already taken place.

Do you wish to debate the meaning of this text from Matthew 24?

 

[Adullam]

Rather, the bible says that Jesus will come Physically to take over the kingdoms of this present world...SO THAT ALL WILL SEE IT! Not just the delusional few who claim something is good, when it is not. Crying peace, peace, where there's no peace.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all thetribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with powerand great glory.

Notice that all men will see the coming of the reign of Christ. This will take place in the reality that you are trying to alter presently.

Matthew 24 has been addressed in some detail in other threads (most in the End Times section). I believe that you misinterpret it, and that it really refers to events that have already taken place.

Do you wish to debate the meaning of this text from Matthew 24?

That is a preterist viewpoint.

 

[Drew]

That is a preterist viewpoint.

I do not think labels are helpful.

Do you want to get into actual scriptural arguments about the timing of the material in Matthew 24?

 

[Adullam]

That is a preterist viewpoint.

I do not think labels are helpful.

Do you want to get into actual scriptural arguments about the timing of the material in Matthew 24?

Perhaps you should start a new thread...Is Preterism biblical? This thread concerns denominations. Preterism is not a denomination per se...it is a heresy that seeks to reconcile spiritual things with outlandish human reasonings. It is a great waste of time to argue over what is clearly a ridiculous premise. Are UFO's biblical? etc....

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.