Should Churches be non-denominational?

[francisdesales]

What is your definition of a "denomination"?

I find these conversations interesting, but will restrain myself and only ask the above question...

Regards

Let me rather not give you my definition , lets stick to the Word:

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been signified unto me concerning you, my brethren, by them that are of the household of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul?

All who move outside of this is a schism , sect, denomination.

I asked for a definition of denomination, not a quote from Scriptures that doesn't define the word (or uses it in the citation!) That is not exactly a definition of the word "denomination", is it?

Can you please define "denomination", using the above verse, if you desire?

Thanks

 

[francisdesales]

Cornelius,

Where does this or any other verse in Scriptures tell us that these "five ministries" all were involved in leadership positions and that a pastor was not responsible for teaching, leading and ruling his flock? No doubt, you will soon say that all people are "teachers, pastors, prophets, apostles, and evangelists", using a definition taken out of context, thus, doing away with the intent of Scriptures when it tells us that we ARE to follow and obey our pastors... But we call this "eigesis".

Reconsider reading Titus 1. For what reason did Paul appoint elders/bishops in Crete if this "five ministries" exists as you believe?

Regards

Again, let me rather use Scripture:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;
Eph 4:16 from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.

Again, re-citing this doesn't tell us anything about your idea of the "five ministry" concept. This is a poor way to do theology. If one cites Scriptures, they need to explain how it supports their case.

Thanks

 

[Cornelius]

In both posts I used an English translation so that its easy to understand. Its really very clear. Just read it with comprehension and you will see that your questions are answered by the scriptures. You really do not need my added opinion.

 

[francisdesales]

In both posts I used an English translation so that its easy to understand. Its really very clear. Just read it with comprehension and you will see that your questions are answered by the scriptures. You really do not need my added opinion.

Actually, that is exactly what I am asking for, since Scriptures are subject to interpretation. They don't interpret themselves and require someone to read and interpret. Those who read Scriptures and attempt to defend their interpretations should comment on why they interpret Scriptures the way they do, rather than posting Scriptures as if they explain your point of view.

If you choose not to answer my question, that is fine, I understand. However, to understand your point of view, I am asking you again "what is a denomination" according to your take of Scriptures? Furthermore, does the Scriptures tell us that pastors are NOT in charge of their flocks?

Thanks

 

[Cornelius]

They don't interpret themselves and require someone to read and interpret.

OK, I will interpret them for you, since you ask.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
It means he gave so to be apostles, some prophets , some evangelists and some pastors and teachers

Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

It means :He gave them for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the buillding of the body of Christ.
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
it means:
Until we all come into unity of the faith, and the knowlefge of the Sone of Gdo, unto a fullgrown ma, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

It means, that we may be no longer children , tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error.


So we clearly see by my interpretation, that the body was given the five fold ministry.

Now if we look at the next scripture we see:


1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

According to me, this is saying, that Paul is beseeching the brethren, through the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that they all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among them. He then says, they must be perfected together in the same mind and the same judgment.

 

[Cornelius]

The other scripture you were asking about was this one I believe?

1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and I partly believe it.
Yep, Paul is seeing divisions exist among them and he is believing it.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also factions among you, that they that are approved may be made manifest among you.
Yes he is saying that the factions must be, because they manifest those who are approved among them.

 

[mutzrein]

:yes I agree with that interpretation!

 

[Cornelius]

:yes I agree with that interpretation!

Thanks from Down Under ! Yes it was hard work, but I think I cracked it

 

[francisdesales]

OK, I will interpret them for you, since you ask.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
It means he gave so to be apostles, some prophets , some evangelists and some pastors and teachers

Does this mean that God gave no other gifts? There are only five ministries? And what exactly are the roles of these five ministries? Do they overlap at times? What is the role of "pastors" vs "teachers" vs "prophets"? YOUR idea of the "five ministries" is still unclear to me.

These are questions you leave unanswered - and given that you have not told me what a "denomination" is, I wonder what you mean when you call Catholicism a 'denomination', as well.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

According to me, this is saying, that Paul is beseeching the brethren, through the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that they all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among them. He then says, they must be perfected together in the same mind and the same judgment.

That seems quite apparent, yet, we do disagree. The issue is at what point does disagreement become division. At what point does plurality and diversity become schism and division? At what point does a line of thinking become "another denomination"?

And of course, disagree from what? What is the standard for interpreting the Scriptures themselves? What does Paul have in mind when he tells the Corinthians NOT to disagree - with what??? Their OWN PERSONAL interpretations???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The other scripture you were asking about was this one I believe?

1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and I partly believe it.
Yep, Paul is seeing divisions exist among them and he is believing it.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also factions among you, that they that are approved may be made manifest among you.
Yes he is saying that the factions must be, because they manifest those who are approved among them.

So does this mean that those of these factions have made those who REMAIN and have not separated manifest among the community? Is Paul saying that divisions make the dilineation of who is in the Body more manifest??? That those who divide themselves make it known to all that they are in schism???

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

Does this mean that God gave no other gifts? There are only five ministries? And what exactly are the roles of these five ministries? Do they overlap at times? What is the role of "pastors" vs "teachers" vs "prophets"? YOUR idea of the "five ministries" is still unclear to me.

Does the Bible tell us, regarding the perfecting of the saints, that God gave more ministries ? What do you think? Would God have given the list in Ephesians and yet forgotten about some others?

Of course there are other gifts, but they are not the offices that Ephesians speak about.The five fold ministry has other gifts too, which are the tools of ministry: (prophecy, healing, knowledge, wisdom, faith) but I am sure you do not want me talk about the christian gifts now.

These are questions you leave unanswered - and given that you have not told me what a "denomination" is, I wonder what you mean when you call Catholicism a 'denomination', as well.

Yes you were one of the first denominations. Why do you have a problem understanding denomination? Its a schism, a sect, that formed away from the first main body of believers. All denominations have the same reaction as you have at this moment, when somebody does not agree that they are "it"

That seems quite apparent, yet, we do disagree. The issue is at what point does disagreement become division. At what point does plurality and diversity become schism and division? At what point does a line of thinking become "another denomination"?

When somebody packs their bags and buy another building, put up their own "flag" , think of a new name, all because they think they have the only truth. Also, when you say you are in the only truth and that all others are wrong if they are not in your church, (denomination). Well, all are really guilty here, Catholic will claim they are the only church, so does the Baptist, so does the Pentecostals etc. Schism, against schism.

A denomination is based on the group's believe that they are correct. That they have somehow been the chosen. Sometimes they start out on a truth seen, but that quickly gets swallowed up when other errors are not dealt with. The Nicolaitan error has never left the the church since the Catholic church started using it as their main way of government.Jesus hated it, He told us how, but we chose another way:Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
Mat 20:26 Not so shall it be among you: but whosoever would become great among you shall be your minister; G1249
διάκονοÂ
diakonos
dee-ak'-on-os
Probably from διάκÉ diakÃ…Â (obsolete, to run on errands; compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.

Mat 20:27 and whosoever would be first among you shall be your servant : G1401
δοῦλοÂ
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.

And of course, disagree from what? What is the standard for interpreting the Scriptures themselves? What does Paul have in mind when he tells the Corinthians NOT to disagree - with what??? Their OWN PERSONAL interpretations???

No, he would never do that , he says:1Co 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

Denominations are "puffed up against each other"

 

[Cornelius]

The other scripture you were asking about was this one I believe?

1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and I partly believe it.
Yep, Paul is seeing divisions exist among them and he is believing it.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also factions among you, that they that are approved may be made manifest among you.
Yes he is saying that the factions must be, because they manifest those who are approved among them.

So does this mean that those of these factions have made those who REMAIN and have not separated manifest among the community? Is Paul saying that divisions make the dilineation of who is in the Body more manifest??? That those who divide themselves make it known to all that they are in schism???

Regards

Yes, like when people say " We are of Peter" for instance. They have moved away from the body of Christ as it was in the day of the first Apostles. They normally persecute those who do differ from them and kill them if the times allow it. If the times does not, they will persecute with words until such a time that they can persecute and kill again.

Do not think that I am only talking about the RCC at this moment, although they are a prime example that stands out in history. This spirit has been driving all religions as far back as Cain. Cain was the first to kill, because he had a different "denomination" He offered works and Abel did not. Able was into grace , but the works-religion of Cain killed him. The letter killeth and the spirit is live.

The Body of Christ, has always just simply survived without pomp and ceremony. Very much like Jesus. Simple, humble, full of power, love, forgiveness, respecting the Word.Knowing how they fit together in the spirit. Recognizing each other by the other's spirit, because the other spirit confesses the same as theirs. It confesses "Christ is in me and coming in me" This is not done through words even, but as the Bible says.......through the spirit.1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

So the true church holds together via the spirit and not through the doctrines and traditions of man.Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Spirit of Christ is not the same as the Holy Spirit, which is mentioned in the first part as the Spirit of God


But I am digressing........

 

[Adullam]

Men can't handle the truth in a pure form...they must add their leaven to it. Then the focus becomes the leaven itself. Like a child who loves ketchup. He will eat anything that has ketchup on it. Ask him if he likes fish.....and he will say yes; although never without extensive amounts of ketchup. Does he really like fish?

How many drink coffee without sweetener? Without milk? Do we divide over how we take our coffee? We do tend to divide over our own beliefs. We are willing to turn our backs on a brother who holds different views. Is this love?

We should never make a club based on our type of seasoning....a Christian cannot do this. We are commanded to be one in the Lord. But that unity must be in the Spirit. The pure Spirit of God...without the "ands" as in the Spirit "and" this belief or that belief.

Ands off! :yes

We are being called, remember...we are not the ones doing the calling. Christ remains the Head of the church or else it is not His. He needs no earthly representative if He still lives!


There is the pure word to consider...not the word along with this or that interpretation. The pure word. The word is only properly understood through the Holy Spirit. If we are of one Spirit, why do we divide over interpretations?

Spirit trumps words. Otherwise Jesus would be a magic word that atheists could use to heal someone. A man can speak the word without faith or without Spirit. Are we bringing life or death?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

You can't make a denomination with truth. You surrender to the truth. No one possesses the truth: but does the truth possess you?

 

[Cornelius]

You can't make a denomination with truth. You surrender to the truth. No one possesses the truth: but does the truth possess you?

LOL, wish I thought of that Its so perfect and true. The church is caught up in this, what you are saying here. The church are those who have been possessed by truth. and this is not inside any denomination or system .Amen !

 

[Cornelius]

Your "ands off" is the same as the "Yes but" Christians. Does God heal "Yes but....." Does God provide in all our needs "Yes but....." Are there still miracles "Yes but........" Can we manifest Christ in this world "Yes but......."

and the list goes on.

 

[Adullam]

Your "ands off" is the same as the "Yes but" Christians. Does God heal "Yes but....." Does God provide in all our needs "Yes but....." Are there still miracles "Yes but........" Can we manifest Christ in this world "Yes but......."

and the list goes on.

Yes bru! We are not called on to be negotiators of the truth...but ambassadors of the truth! :yes

 

[Cornelius]

Your "ands off" is the same as the "Yes but" Christians. Does God heal "Yes but....." Does God provide in all our needs "Yes but....." Are there still miracles "Yes but........" Can we manifest Christ in this world "Yes but......."

and the list goes on.

Yes bru! We are not called on to be negotiators of the truth...but ambassadors of the truth! :yes

Amen. yesterday the Lord showed me how some are going up the mountain at this moment like Moses did. They are climbing that spiritual mountain to the top. At the top is where they see God face to face "in the mirror" and come down with the Word written on the tablets of their heart. Shining with His glory .The sealed book that Daniel is speaking about is opening and the times are at its end. They are being possessed by the Truth Himself, the living Word until no lie is found in their mouth and they will be without blemish.Holy , walking before the Lord. Living inside the veil in the presence of God. Then they too will only do what they see the Father does.They have fully died to self and are manifesting the Seed a hundred fold (Matthew ) Amazing times we live in.

Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

i think we can easily answer this- Does God use all things for the good of those who love him? Yes so can he use denominations for our good yes, does that mean he will do that forever? no when the church comes into the image of christ into the UNTIY of the faith there will be no more denominations except amoung tha unbelievers and apostates. where will denominations be in our etneral life? no where they wont exist

 

[Adullam]

That there should be no schism (denominations) in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 1 Cor 12:25 :love2

 

[Cornelius]

Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: