Should Churches be non-denominational?

[Vince]

I'm Baptist, and I don't have a creed.

 

[Adullam]

I'm Baptist, and I don't have a creed.

Are you a follower of John the Baptist?

 

[Free]

There is such a thing as having no charter or creeds

Such a thing as having no creeds? Not in Christianity.

We don't have a creed, we only have the Bible and I am in Christianity.

My point is that Christianity has creeds. To say otherwise is to not understand what creeds are or why they were developed.

 

[Cornelius]

My point is that Christianity has creeds. To say otherwise is to not understand what creeds are or why they were developed.

That's true, I have no idea why they were developed. I really don't, unless somebody was trying to interpret the Bible in a more condensed form or something. Is it like the Readers Digest condensed version ? Does it mean that everybody now holds on to these creeds and the Bible, or just the creeds, or just the Bible ?

 

[Adullam]

Churchianity has creeds. This is a fact whether we are born or not. The world has it's own ways. Let them have their creeds. We are called to follow Christ...not recite dead creeds. Let the dead recite creeds. The only thing we are to put on is not even a what...but a who!

 

[Vince]

Are you a follower of John the Baptist?

No, but like him, I'm a follower of Jesus. That's why I'm a Baptist with no creed.

 

[francisdesales]

There is such a thing as seeking God's way rather than man's way.

There is such a thing as having no charter or creeds, but walking in simple faith and love for God and the brethren.

I agree with the first statement. The second is contradictory. A creed is an expression of belief. There is no such thing as "walking in simple faith", since one must first have an idea of WHAT to have faith IN...

Is God like Allah? Like Jesus Christ? The Mormon God?

Oh, yea, a creed is necessary... Having a set of beliefs does not preclude having simple faith in God. Scriptures are full of such people who shared a set of common beliefs (creed) and cult (worship) - and yet lived a life of simple faith.

Christianity today must be experienced. The days of "pray, pay and obey" are done. Any (catholic or Protestant) who still have this paradigm will either be lax and lukewarm, or will focus on rules and guidelines while missing the inner message of the Gospel. One must experience Christ, and this must be done within the context of a community, for the sake of objectivity and to prevent our own self-indulgences from creeping in.

There is such a thing as walking in the power of the Holy Spirit....and not in the futility of the mind.

There is such a thing as having no human leader, but relying on the headship of Christ alone. We hear the council of the elders but we act according to our faith. We have one Lord and we are all brethren. (Mat. 23:8)

God desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth. If truth is revealed and if we can logically declare that there cannot be contradictory truths, than we can conclude that not everyone has the truth. So how does God expect men to know the truth He desires all men to know? Matthew 28 tells us that the Church is to spread the Gospel. And that Gospel is not "in the futility of the mind".

There is such a thing as being led by the Spirit rather than trusting to man-made organization.

The disciples are a little flock...always has been...still is...and always will be.

yes, a flock that requires a shepherd who has been tasked to feed us... Men have been tasked to feed us while the Master is "away".

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

There is such a thing as having no charter or creeds

Such a thing as having no creeds? Not in Christianity.

We don't have a creed, we only have the Bible and I am in Christianity.

For those who think they "don't have a creed"... :crazy

Your mere expressed opinions on this forum display that you do have a creed.

A creed is an expression of your beliefs in God. Those who make such ridiculous statements are clearly "blowing in the wind", trying to be politically correct in this day and age of crowning one's own Reason and making that his "god"...

God desires us to come to the knowledge of Truth. He sent His Apostles to accomplish this task, and men continue to spread the Gospel, which contains credal elements - such as Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Have you guys actually read the entire New Testament? How is that missed???

Those who continue to express "I have no creed" are simply not Christians... Christians have always had a creed, a "rule of faith" that was to be protected and guarded. To say otherwise mocks the Risen Lord, who tasked men with teaching a Creed...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I'm Baptist, and I don't have a creed.

Baptists don't believe in anything? Strange, there are so many different forms of Baptists, its hard to keep track of them all - and yet, they have no set of beliefs???

Quite odd... :crazy

 

[francisdesales]

Churchianity has creeds. This is a fact whether we are born or not. The world has it's own ways. Let them have their creeds. We are called to follow Christ...not recite dead creeds. Let the dead recite creeds. The only thing we are to put on is not even a what...but a who!

And "WHO" is He? Whomever you invent or come up with???

The Creed expresses what the community believes WHO HE IS... Perhaps you should read it again for the first time so you are aware of what Christians in unity believe...

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen. So it is.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

For those who think they "don't have a creed"... :crazy

Your mere expressed opinions on this forum display that you do have a creed.

A creed is an expression of your beliefs in God.

You are right !!! I found my creed. Its called "The Word of God"

 

[Vince]

Well, okay, I do have a creed. But it's 66 books long.

 

[Adullam]

Churchianity has creeds. This is a fact whether we are born or not. The world has it's own ways. Let them have their creeds. We are called to follow Christ...not recite dead creeds. Let the dead recite creeds. The only thing we are to put on is not even a what...but a who!

And "WHO" is He? Whomever you invent or come up with???

The Creed expresses what the community believes WHO HE IS... Perhaps you should read it again for the first time so you are aware of what Christians in unity believe...

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen. So it is.

Regards

Do we have a creed before turning to Christ. Does a non-believer do things according to a belief system or does he do what comes naturally?

In Christ, we do what comes super-naturally. As for a definite creed that must be believed word for word...that is ludicrous. We are not to destroy the mystery of God through a cemented statement...we are to experience it daily. Why is man trying to formulize the living God who chooses to remain a mystery in so many ways? That is the province of religious structuralists and ecclesiastical engineers and lawyers. As soon as we think we have figured God out, we lose the wonder of child-like faith. We are not to be doctors of the law that quibble over endless details to no prophet. (profit)

Creeds were used to condemn others who didn't believe precisely the same thing. Some were burned, drowned, strangled, beheaded, tortured, whipped...all for the lust of man to control belief in both themselves and others. Do we seek to control heretics? We are known by our fruits, not our doctrinal statements. Let the heretics quibble over creeds.

I say shame! shame! shame!

I pray you reconsider this rigid understanding that robs one of a personal and corporate testimony in the present. Is it any wonder that spiritual revival and the life in that peeters out when man tries to contain it. A creed bears no life...it is just facts at best. We are not saved or helped by facts but by life. The truth is alive...it sets us free. Mere facts bring us into more bondage. We need no creeds. Why add to the the bible in this way?

 

[francisdesales]

For those who think they "don't have a creed"... :crazy

Your mere expressed opinions on this forum display that you do have a creed.

A creed is an expression of your beliefs in God.

You are right !!! I found my creed. Its called "The Word of God"

Yes, we all state that our creed comes from God's Word. The Nicene Creed is dependent upon God's Word. The point is that some people, using God's Word, come up with other creeds, like the JV or Mormons. Merely stating "my creed is the Word of God" is vague to the point of meaninglessness.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Do we have a creed before turning to Christ. Does a non-believer do things according to a belief system or does he do what comes naturally?

Do we have a creed before turning to Christ? No. What's the point? That I was an unbeliever before I turned to Christ???

In Christ, we do what comes super-naturally. As for a definite creed that must be believed word for word...that is ludicrous. We are not to destroy the mystery of God through a cemented statement...

The Creed is not a "cemented statement", since the Creed itself is a device for meditation. Just the first sentence "We believe in one God, the Father the Almighty". The sentence does not completely plomb the nature of the Father, nor does it intend to. The Creed respects man's desire to seek the mysterious nature of God WHILE recognizing that God is transcendant and beyond complete knowledge. It serves to unite a community of believers into one - since many people who seek God or claim to "know" God do not experience Him as the "Father the Almighty".

No one says you have to believe something word for word. However, a person shouldn't name themself "Christian", since we indeed DO believe every word of the Creed unites Christians in their beliefs.

we are to experience it daily. Why is man trying to formulize the living God who chooses to remain a mystery in so many ways?

I understand your desire to recogize that God is a mystery that cannot be comprehended, but I do not understand your contradictory statements of opinions regarding God and Jesus elsewhere on this very forum... You claim that God is mystery and cannot be known, but than you say He is experienced and can be known - and you then proceed to tell me something about God... You seem to want it both ways.

We know something about God through our experiences. We do not know God by formulations, but these formulations are based on our experiences themeselves and help us to name our experiences.

That is the province of religious structuralists and ecclesiastical engineers and lawyers. As soon as we think we have figured God out, we lose the wonder of child-like faith. We are not to be doctors of the law that quibble over endless details to no prophet. (profit)

It is not necessary to introduce to me the false slippery slope defense...

"We must have no structures or canon law, since they will lead to Pharisaic action"...

You are playing off one extreme by holding to the opposite extreme.

Creeds were used to condemn others who didn't believe precisely the same thing. Some were burned, drowned, strangled, beheaded, tortured, whipped...all for the lust of man to control belief in both themselves and others. Do we seek to control heretics? We are known by our fruits, not our doctrinal statements. Let the heretics quibble over creeds.

It probably isn't of much value to judge other men of eons removed with our own standards of today. However, it is intesting to note that many of the most rabid relativists are often the most intolerant of men, WHEN those men step over a perceived line (such as a person who holds to a creed is seen as the most evil of people...)

Of course, this doesn't apply to you, if you have absolutely no principles or creed...

I pray you reconsider this rigid understanding that robs one of a personal and corporate testimony in the present. Is it any wonder that spiritual revival and the life in that peeters out when man tries to contain it.

Like I said before, you shouldn't presume that because someone has a creed, they are "dead" to Christ. This is just so ironic, how you apply your prejudiced broad-brushed over everyone, proclaiming they are all dead - WHILE holding to this "mighty principle" that you are so enlightened because you have no expression of beliefs...

It is people with a set of principles and beliefs that are indeed the MOST alive in Christ.

Or have you missed that when you were reading the Pauline Corpus???

A creed bears no life...it is just facts at best. We are not saved or helped by facts but by life. The truth is alive...it sets us free. Mere facts bring us into more bondage. We need no creeds. Why add the the bible in this way?

We live our life through what we believe in... Whether you realize it or not, our principles are part and parcel behind our walk. You cannot separate our walk from our creeds. If I believe that God sent His Only Son to die for MY sake, what sort of life might I lead if I held to that belief in the Creed, vs. a God who is out to get me, waiting to throw lightening bolts at me for a misstep??? The creed never makes the statement that this is the "all-encompassing" knowledge of God.

Regards

 

[Adullam]

Francis....which is it? The unity of the creed? Or the unity of the Spirit? You can't have it both ways. Creeds give a false sense of unity. The mafia agree with the creed. They know no other creed. Does this bring you into any sort of unity with them?

BTW. the fact that God has revealed Himself to me and I know Him does not mean that I know everything about Him. The purpose of intimacy with God is not to study Him. He is not like a planet to be explored or a plant to dissect and study.

Intimacy is just that. It is from that intimacy that I speak. I am not an independent scientist telling people my findings. Look deeper into this. Creeds are for the masses. Literally.

 

[Adullam]

Creeds and denominations are rigid. Our job is not just to resist the enemy but to take down strongholds. This has been entirely neglected in favour of a false sense of security in our rigid structures..

Paul certainly wasn't rigid. He was fluid in his approach. He became all things to all men so that he might win some.

There is a misconception afoot that Christianity ought to be rigid. In warfare manoeuvre is far superior to a static defence. The bible says that the gates of hell shall not prevail against us...that is if we attack a rigid structure with a mobile offense. It is not the gates of the church that will overcome! Think of the Maginot line during WW2. It was useless in defending the country. The enemy simply went around the fortifications.

So it is with the modern church. :help

 

[Free]

Creeds and denominations are rigid. Our job is not just to resist the enemy but to take down strongholds. This has been entirely neglected in favour of a false sense of security in our rigid structures..

Paul certainly wasn't rigid. He was fluid in his approach. He became all things to all men so that he might win some.

There is a misconception afoot that Christianity ought to be rigid. In warfare manoeuvre is far superior to a static defence. The bible says that the gates of hell shall not prevail against us...that is if we attack a rigid structure with a mobile offense. It is not the gates of the church that will overcome! Think of the Maginot line during WW2. It was useless in defending the country. The enemy simply went around the fortifications.

So it is with the modern church. :help

Paul was fluid in his approach but his doctrine was rigid, as it should be. Becoming all things to all men does not in any way mean you change what you believe; that would be lying and deception.

 

[Cornelius]

Paul was fluid in his approach but his doctrine was rigid, as it should be. Becoming all things to all men does not in any way mean you change what you believe; that would be lying and deception.

That is correct. Thank God nobody was saying we should change the truth of the gospel to suit others !

 

[francisdesales]

Francis....which is it? The unity of the creed? Or the unity of the Spirit? You can't have it both ways. Creeds give a false sense of unity. The mafia agree with the creed. They know no other creed. Does this bring you into any sort of unity with them?

WHY can't I have it both ways? The Creed presupposes that the Spirit is involved in its making! The holiness of the Church is dependent upon the concept that the Spirit guides it to all truth, as Scriptures relate. Thus, unity of the Spirit is manifested by unity of the creed (and cult...)

As for the Mafia, I don't share any creed with them.

BTW. the fact that God has revealed Himself to me and I know Him does not mean that I know everything about Him. The purpose of intimacy with God is not to study Him. He is not like a planet to be explored or a plant to dissect and study.

I agree, nor does any theologian. I have already stated that we know God by experience, not through esoteric philosophizing. However, theology, the study of God, is a worthwhile pursuit for those who do love God. Those who love God desire to know more about Him - but that doesn't mean we will ever know ALL about God, like we might know about fruit flies...

If you have ever had a girlfriend/wife, you would see the analogy. When we love someone, we desire to know more about them. This "study" does NOT take away from our desire for intimacy.

Intimacy is just that. It is from that intimacy that I speak. I am not an independent scientist telling people my findings. Look deeper into this. Creeds are for the masses. Literally.

So intimacy is just based on some hazy "feelings" that give you butterflies in your stomach as you sing "Koombia"? I am hoping that when you say "look deeper", you would SEE that is EXACTLY what Creeds do. They look deeper into what we actually believe about God. Think about it.

Adullum, the Mass is THE MOST intimate meeting with Christ! At this celebration, we are joined as a community with the Body of Christ in perfect worship offered to the Father. So Creeds are definitely suited for intimacy! Your comments show that you have a meager and superficial understanding of what we do at the Mass.

Perhaps it might be better to reconsider putting all catholics (or any other community that has a formal creed) into a general category of "the religious dead" because they hold to principles formulated in a creed... Such superficial stereotypes is unbecoming of one who claims to be Christian.

Regards