Should Churches be non-denominational?

[Adullam]

The church...the pillar and ground of the truth.

Denomination...the pillar and ground of a truth.

 

[Vince]

The church...the pillar and ground of the truth.

Denomination...the pillar and ground of a truth.



Hey, I'll use that one! That's pretty good!

Think of the Christian life as a many-faceted diamond. Different groups excel in certain areas, while being unsuccessful in others. When debating other genuine Christians, each group can truthfully point out ways in which they are superior and ways in which the other is inferior.

 

[francisdesales]

Does the Bible tell us, regarding the perfecting of the saints, that God gave more ministries ?

Yes, all of God's ministries are given for the purpose of perfecting others. One Corinthians 12 is clear on this, telling us that gifts of the Spirit are for the use of others, for the Body, not the individual.

Do you think God gives us personal gifts so we can keep them to ourselves?

What do you think? Would God have given the list in Ephesians and yet forgotten about some others?

The list is not exhaustive, C. The context is about preachers and teachers, not about all the gifts that God has given to the Church in some sort of laundry list style.

Yes you were one of the first denominations. Why do you have a problem understanding denomination?

To me, a denomination is a schism. From what Church did the Catholic Church break from? Judaism??? According to Scriptures, the apostolic Church is the continuation and fulfillment of Judaism. Is there some other historical church I am not aware of that the Catholic Church "broke" from that would have you think it is a "denomination" - as per what it appears your definition is?

And where does that leave you??? What denomination are you in?

When somebody packs their bags and buy another building, put up their own "flag" , think of a new name, all because they think they have the only truth.

I don't think Protestants leave the First Baptist Church to start the Second Baptist Church because they have the ONLY truth...

Try to be more Catholic on this. Accept that other Christians have a great amount of truth in their beliefs.

Also, when you say you are in the only truth and that all others are wrong if they are not in your church, (denomination). Well, all are really guilty here, Catholic will claim they are the only church, so does the Baptist, so does the Pentecostals etc. Schism, against schism.

What on earth are you talking about? When have I ever said this? Where does the Catholic Church ever say this??? I can see why you hate the "Catholic" church, although it appears to be a strawman of your own erection...

A denomination is based on the group's believe that they are correct. That they have somehow been the chosen. Sometimes they start out on a truth seen, but that quickly gets swallowed up when other errors are not dealt with. The Nicolaitan error has never left the the church since the Catholic church started using it as their main way of government.

Where is the historical evidence for this gem??? Citing Scriptures that refer to non-descript ideals and applying tem blanket-like to an entire church is pretty silly. Where is your historical evidence that "Nicolaitian" refers to the Catholic Church??? Why doesn't John just say "Catholic Church" if that is what he is refering to - which is strange, considering the Catholic Church is the only group that takes the words of Christ literally true??? You sure John is attacking those who take his words literally true???

Sorry, I don't buy the twist of the word "Nicolaitian" to refer to the Universal Church of the time of John!!!



Edited my mistake in forgeting to correctly use HTML procedure...

 

[Vince]

From what Church did the Catholic Church break from?


They broke off from the Orthodox Church.

 

[Tina]

^

Actually it's the Roman Catholic Church that broke off from the Orthodox Church.

The Orthodox Church still calls itself the Catholic Church, although it's called a Christian Church in my country.


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[Cornelius]

The list is not exhaustive, C. The context is about preachers and teachers, not about all the gifts that God has given to the Church in some sort of laundry list style.

I already told you they are not the same as the gifts to the general body. First, you have the five fold ministry only given to men. But woman can prophecy, but are never in the office of prophet. But this is not the place to talk about it.

To me, a denomination is a schism. From what Church did the Catholic Church break from? Judaism??? According to Scriptures, the apostolic Church is the continuation and fulfillment of Judaism. Is there some other historical church I am not aware of that the Catholic Church "broke" from that would have you think it is a "denomination" - as per what it appears your definition is?

Yes, you broke away from the church as it is described in the Bible.

And where does that leave you??? What denomination are you in?

I am not in any denomination, neither am I in a Non-denomination. I do however fellowship with the saints of God. Does not matter if they are in "Ephesus" or "Thessalonica" or "Jerusalem" or "New York" In my meeting with the saints, I have met apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers, all walking like I walk. We just "are". We do not have a home-building, our home is in heaven.We meet each other and fellowship wherever we are.Sometimes we travel very far to meet up with each other, but mostly we fellowship with many that are close by.The Lord brings us together.You never know who He is bringing next. We cover the earth.


If I have questions, I contact a teacher. I am in contact with the information that comes through the prophets and I know that the apostles are looking that the saints everywhere stay on track as they look after the doctrine and appoint elders and see that the church is established . We do not have a name, so I cannot really tell you where to contact us. But you have met me so you have made contact !

If you said" Take me to your leader" I can point you to Jesus, because we really do not have any one earthly leader , although we have many , many elders that see to the order. I have even witnessed these elders putting some out of the church, when they live in willful sin. There are so many Biblical miracles happening all over the place. People are getting healed, delivered and demons are being cast out. The dead have been raised and some have even been translated from one country to the next like Phillip in the Bible. God is MOVING outside the confines of the denomination. Praise God!

We have always been here since Jesus. We have gone through times when the denominations killed us and hunted us down. They built their buildings and elected their leaders and gained in wealth. They thought we had disappeared but we have always been there. We went underground in many countries so they could not find us. There has not been a time after the Lord, that we were not here.

Try to be more Catholic on this. Accept that other Christians have a great amount of truth in their beliefs.

Yes they have, but God is after more. He wants unity.



The Nicolaitan error, or "Ruling over laity" :It refers to all under that error, not just one denomination. It started before the Catholic denomination, it already started in the time of the first apostles .

Blessings
C

 

[francisdesales]

From what Church did the Catholic Church break from?

They broke off from the Orthodox Church.

or the other way around...

The interesting thing is that the Universal Church called itself "Catholic" before the Great Schism, both East and West, and after the Schism, only one community continued to call itself "Catholic". The Orthodox community realizes it is not "catholic", my friend.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

^

Actually it's the Roman Catholic Church that broke off from the Orthodox Church.

The Orthodox Church still calls itself the Catholic Church, although it's called a Christian Church in my country.


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The Orthodox (I presume you refer to Greek or Russian) church does not call itself the Catholic Church, madam...

Nor does the Catholic Church call itself "Roman". There are a number of rites within the Catholic Church that are not Roman, and yet Catholic, having all of our same doctrinal beliefs (papacy, eucharist, saints, Mary, Mass, sacraments, etc...)

I find this is a common confusion among Protestants. The Catholic Church has many Romans, but it is not the "Roman Catholic Church".

Regards

 

[Tina]

^

Actually it's the Roman Catholic Church that broke off from the Orthodox Church.

The Orthodox Church still calls itself the Catholic Church, although it's called a Christian Church in my country.


.

The Orthodox (I presume you refer to Greek or Russian) church does not call itself the Catholic Church, madam...

Nor does the Catholic Church call itself "Roman". There are a number of rites within the Catholic Church that are not Roman, and yet Catholic, having all of our same doctrinal beliefs (papacy, eucharist, saints, Mary, Mass, sacraments, etc...)

I find this is a common confusion among Protestants. The Catholic Church has many Romans, but it is not the "Roman Catholic Church".

Regards

........ :help


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[Adullam]

Name calling (denominations) is divisive in itself. Calling oneself apostolic does not ensure one is following the apostles in the Spirit. So it is with Catholic or any other term. We are not saved through proper terminology.

Every church in every age must experience Christ for themselves....no one can live on past glories.

I remember going to a studio located in a church building. A person asked me...do you know what denomination this is? I said I didn't know. He informed me that this church came out of the Welsh revival over a hundred years ago. He seemed rather proud of this. He felt somehow that what had happened at a different time and a different place to different people somehow sanctified his building.

What ever happened to Christ being the sanctifier?

 

[francisdesales]

I already told you they are not the same as the gifts to the general body. First, you have the five fold ministry only given to men. But woman can prophecy, but are never in the office of prophet. But this is not the place to talk about it.

Ephesians is not necessarily speaking of "office". It merely lists a few of the gifts God gives to the Church for the sake of perfecting the saints. It is not necessary to interpret this as a "male office", nor even about leadership roles ONLY. And no, I don't believe women are to be priests...

Yes, you broke away from the church as it is described in the Bible.

I broke away from the Church??? Last I could tell, I still am in the Church, visibly, thank you very much. The Bible doesn't mention the Catholic Church breaking away from some other Church...

I am not in any denomination, neither am I in a Non-denomination.

Wrong. Everyone belongs to a "denomination", if I define denomination as a set of beliefs and a manner of worship. We all practice a set of ethics, have a creed, and worship in particular way that differs in some ways from other Christians. If I define "denomination" as "differences of cult and creed", then you are in a "denomination", the church of Cornelius. If I define "denomination" as anyone who has separated themselves from the original visible Church of the Bible, you qualify for that, as well. Thus, you cannot have your cake and eat it, as well. You cannot tell me you are "non-denominational" while holding to a different set of beliefs and practices from the first Christians...

I do however fellowship with the saints of God. Does not matter if they are in "Ephesus" or "Thessalonica" or "Jerusalem" or "New York" In my meeting with the saints, I have met apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers, all walking like I walk. We just "are". We do not have a home-building, our home is in heaven.We meet each other and fellowship wherever we are.Sometimes we travel very far to meet up with each other, but mostly we fellowship with many that are close by.The Lord brings us together.You never know who He is bringing next. We cover the earth.

Yes, and so did the Gnostics and Judaizers. They also "fellowshipped" and traveled far and went to homes... It doesn't follow that you are the same Church spoken of in Scriptures. The writers of the Bible had a particular community in mind, not just any group that got together and reinvented Christianity to suit their own personal tastes and agendas.

We have always been here since Jesus. We have gone through times when the denominations killed us and hunted us down. They built their buildings and elected their leaders and gained in wealth. They thought we had disappeared but we have always been there. We went underground in many countries so they could not find us. There has not been a time after the Lord, that we were not here.

Oh please with the "us"... You have little in common with the various schismatics over the centuries, except you share in the same desire to do things "your way". Some false teacher thinks they got an inside track to God and reinvents Christianity to suit the needs of some people. They get itchy ears and follow. We see this even related in Scriptural times. People go off and follow false teachers from the beginning. Thus, to remain true to the intent of the revelation given by God, we remain in the Church He established, even if we don't particular care for some people within it, or may not agree initially with all of her teachings. It is WE who must convert, not the Church.

Yes they have, but God is after more. He wants unity.

So come back home! What prevents the "Reformers" from coming back home, since they left?

The Nicolaitan error, or "Ruling over laity" :It refers to all under that error, not just one denomination. It started before the Catholic denomination, it already started in the time of the first apostles .

We have already discussed this, and I still find the argument a dismal attempt to take a name and change it into some anachronistic discriptor. You have no evidence that "Nicolaitan" is even MEANT to be a Greek word that can be so divided up or was put together by the Nicolaitans to describe their theology...

The Nicolaitans, as other schismatics, are named for the leader whom they follow. Thus, the doctrine of Balaam speaks of whom they follow, not of the doctrines themselves, which is fornication. Balaam does not describe fornication or the act of loose morals, but a particular person/god. Nicolatians is the same thing. It refers to a "Nicolas" whom people followed.

Historical evidence is scant on what exactly the Nicolaitans ACTUALLY did or believed. Irenaeus speaks of it, but gives no further information than John. Several attempt to tie it to the deacon mentioned in Acts, but it is not convincing - and Clement of Alexandria vindicated Nicholas. It appears to be a sect limited to Ephesus and one that died off rather quickly, as it is not mentioned by later Church historians except as an aside.

If Jesus condemns the idea of leadership, as you imply, than you should ask yourself why Jesus instituted the role. Further, Jesus has John write to these "angels", the men in charge of the communities themselves!

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. Rev 2:1-6

Seems quite obvious that the bishop of Ephesus, a man in a leadership position, hates the Nicolatians, whomever they are, as well. Note the role of this angel in Revelation. He tries those who claim to be apostles. His ruling is decisive for the community on such traveling "prophets". He labors for the sake of Christ, just as Paul wrote regarding these ministers. Jesus doesn't chastise the "angel" for being a leader in the community, but that he has fallen from his first love - he is told to repent. We have no indication that his "sin" is "lording it over others". Nowhere do we see Christ attacking authority for the sake of authority. He respect its place, commanding the Apostles to even heed authority (as in Matthew 23:3) and establishing it (as in Matthew 16 and 18). God continues to shepherd His people through authoritative means here on earth.

Another piece of evidence that destroys your argument is the letter that the Bishop of Antioch writes to Ephesus only 10 years later. Ignatius, on his way to death in Rome, writes a letter to the Catholic community, and it is the same one that Paul wrote to...

If you are interested in the truth that your argument collapses upon itself, than read further...

Ignatius writes:

... seeing then that in God's name I have received your whole multitude in the person of Onesimus, whose love passeth utterance and who is moreover your bishop [in the flesh] -- and I pray that ye may love him according to Jesus Christ and that ye all may be like him; for blessed is He that granted unto you according to your deserving to have such a bishop: But as touching my fellow-servant Burrhus, who by the will of God is your deacon blessed in all things, I pray that he may remain with me to the honour of yourselves and of your bishop. May I have joy of you always, if so be I am worthy of it. It is therefore meet for you in every way to glorify Jesus Christ who glorified you; that being perfectly joined together in one submission, submitting yourselves to your bishop and presbytery, ye may be sanctified in all things. I do not command you, as though I were somewhat. For even though I am in bonds for the Name's sake, I am not yet perfected in Jesus Christ. [For] now am I beginning to be a disciple; and I speak to you as to my school-fellows. For I ought to be trained by you for the contest in faith, in admonition, in endurance, in long-suffering. But, since love doth not suffer me to be silent concerning you, therefore was I forward to exhort you, that ye run in harmony with the mind of God: for Jesus Christ also, our inseparable life, is the mind of the Father, even as the bishops that are settled in the farthest parts of the earth are in the mind of Jesus Christ. So then it becometh you to run in harmony with the mind of the bishop; which thing also ye do. For your honourable presbytery, which is worthy of God, is attuned to the bishop, even as its strings to a lyre. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love Jesus Christ is sung. And do ye, each and all, form yourselves into a chorus, that being harmonious in concord and taking the key note of God ye may in unison sing with one voice through Jesus Christ unto the Father, that He may both hear you and acknowledge you by your good deeds to be members of His Son. It is therefore profitable for you to be in blameless unity, that ye may also be partakers of God always. For if I in a short time had such converse with your bishop, which was not after the manner of men but in the Spirit, how much more do I congratulate you who are closely joined with him as the Church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things may be harmonious in unity. Let no man be deceived. If any one be not within the precinct of the altar, he lacketh the bread [of God]. For, if the prayer of one and another hath so great force, how much more that of the bishop and of the whole Church. Whosoever therefore cometh not to the congregation, he doth thereby show his pride and hath separated himself; for it is written, _God resisteth the proud._ Let us therefore be careful not to resist the bishop, that by our submission we may give ourselves to God. And in proportion as a man seeth that his bishop is silent, let him fear him the more. For every one whom the Master of the household sendeth to be steward over His own house, we ought so to receive as Him that sent him. Plainly therefore we ought to regard the bishop as the Lord Himself. Now Onesimus of his own accord highly praiseth your orderly conduct in God, for that ye all live according to truth,and that no heresy hath a home among you: nay, ye do not so much as listen to any one, if he speak of aught else save concerning Jesus Christ in truth. {1:3 - 6:2}

A lot here to digest, but it will thoroughly diffuse your false ideas quickly. First, it is clear that Ignatius writes about the importance of the leaders of the community, the bishops and deacons, and that the people should follow them. He even says that those not in unity with the bishop are not in union with the Bread of God, which brings eternal life. We see the purpose of leaders in the Church in this passage. To exhort people to follow the Chirst by keeping in mind the teachings of the Apostles and the examples of holy men such as the above bishop and deacon.

Finally, to link the writings of Ignatius to Paul and see that this Catholic writes to the same Catholic community that Paul wrote to:

I devote myself for you, and I dedicate myself as an offering for the church of you Ephesians which is
famous unto all the ages. {8:1}

Let nothing glitter in your eyes apart from Him, in whom I carry about my bonds, my spiritual pearls in which I would fain rise again through your prayer, whereof may it be my lot to be always a partaker, that I may be found in the company of those Christians of Ephesus who moreover were ever of one mind with the Apostles in the power of Jesus Christ. {11:2}

I know who I am and to whom I write. I am a convict, ye have received mercy: I am in peril, ye are
established. Ye are the high-road of those that are on their way to die unto God. Ye are associates in the mysteries with Paul, who was sanctified, who obtained a good report, who is worthy of all felicitation; in whose foot-steps I would fain be found treading, when I shall attain unto God; who in every letter maketh mention of you in Christ Jesus. {12:1}

Clearly, Ignatius is writing to the very same community that Paul wrote to, exhorting them to remain in Christ.

What we have here is a Catholic of 110 AD exhorting Catholic Ephesians established and nutured by Paul previously to continue to follow their bishops and not follow after vain teachers.

The same community that John wrote to only 10-15 years earlier...

It is clear that your theory is historically worthless and is the result of vain men who rile against the Church established by Christ. What we have here is not historically correct summations on who are the Nicolaitans, but anachronistic musings from 21st century American egalitarianism and the Age of Enlightenment's desire to place the god of Reason (one's own personal reason) on the throne. It depends upon ignoring the Scriptural warrant for leaders in the community, as well as historical writings that continue in the same vein as Paul to the same communities to continue to follow their bishops.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

........ :help

What are you confused about? Perhaps I can explain things better if you let me know what you are unsure about.

Regards

 

[Vince]

The Orthodox Church, incidentally, broke off from the Baptists.

 

[francisdesales]

Name calling (denominations) is divisive in itself. Calling oneself apostolic does not ensure one is following the apostles in the Spirit. So it is with Catholic or any other term. We are not saved through proper terminology.

Every church in every age must experience Christ for themselves....no one can live on past glories.

Exactly - the best theologians recognize that we must experience the Risen Christ, otherwise, our religion becomes either routine or we become focused on rules. (paraphrasing Rahner).

This is why the Catholic Church, in Vatican 2 documents and those that followed, while defining "Church", recognized the work of God's Spirit outside the visible "walls". The Church sees that many Christians have much truth and that by their works, they are known to be in Christ through some of the gifts God has given His Church, such as some sacraments and the Holy Bible.

It is quite true that many Christians, Catholic or otherwise, do not experience the Risen Lord through their particular cult. I believe part of the blame is the "soil", if I may use reference to the Lord's parable of the sower and the seed... We must RESPOND to God's Love, and being in any particular community does not guarantee that.

I remember going to a studio located in a church building. A person asked me...do you know what denomination this is? I said I didn't know. He informed me that this church came out of the Welsh revival over a hundred years ago. He seemed rather proud of this. He felt somehow that what had happened at a different time and a different place to different people somehow sanctified his building.

What ever happened to Christ being the sanctifier?

Christ works through people in the world through His Body, the Church. Whether people care to admit that or not, God comes to us through other people.

Regards

 

[Adullam]

There is such a thing as seeking God's way rather than man's way.

There is such a thing as having no charter or creeds, but walking in simple faith and love for God and the brethren.

There is such a thing as walking in the power of the Holy Spirit....and not in the futility of the mind.

There is such a thing as having no human leader, but relying on the headship of Christ alone. We hear the council of the elders but we act according to our faith. We have one Lord and we are all brethren. (Mat. 23:8)

There is such thing as the simplicity in Christ. We live together, eat together, pray together and rejoice together.

There is such a thing as being led by the Spirit rather than trusting to man-made organization.

The disciples are a little flock...always has been...still is...and always will be.

 

[Cornelius]

There is such a thing as seeking God's way rather than man's way.

There is such a thing as having no charter or creeds, but walking in simple faith and love for God and the brethren.

There is such a thing as walking in the power of the Holy Spirit....and not in the futility of the mind.

There is such a thing as having no human leader, but relying on the headship of Christ alone. We hear the council of the elders but we act according to our faith. We have one Lord and we are all brethren. (Mat. 23:8)

There is such thing as the simplicity in Christ. We live together, eat together, pray together and rejoice together.

There is such a thing as being led by the Spirit rather than trusting to man-made organization.

The disciples are a little flock...always has been...still is...and always will be.

Can it be, can it be? I think so, .......yes it is ! We are in .......UNITY . We are one !
I love you brother !

 

[Free]

There is such a thing as having no charter or creeds

Such a thing as having no creeds? Not in Christianity.

 

[Adullam]

There is such a thing as seeking God's way rather than man's way.

There is such a thing as having no charter or creeds, but walking in simple faith and love for God and the brethren.

There is such a thing as walking in the power of the Holy Spirit....and not in the futility of the mind.

There is such a thing as having no human leader, but relying on the headship of Christ alone. We hear the council of the elders but we act according to our faith. We have one Lord and we are all brethren. (Mat. 23:8)

There is such thing as the simplicity in Christ. We live together, eat together, pray together and rejoice together.

There is such a thing as being led by the Spirit rather than trusting to man-made organization.

The disciples are a little flock...always has been...still is...and always will be.

Can it be, can it be? I think so, .......yes it is ! We are in .......UNITY . We are one !
I love you brother !

Ja Swaar!

 

[Cornelius]

Ja nee !

 

[Cornelius]

There is such a thing as having no charter or creeds

Such a thing as having no creeds? Not in Christianity.

We don't have a creed, we only have the Bible and I am in Christianity.