Should Churches be non-denominational?

[Cornelius]

Allow me to give you another Scripture:

1Co 1:11 For it hath been signified unto me concerning you, my brethren, by them that are of the household of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul?

So? Is Christ divided or not?

If YES, then the Scriptures are wrong.
If NO, then denominations are wrong.

 

[Cornelius]

There is no one true answer to Dave's question,

Oh there is. Believe me there is. The Bible is clear. The denominations only exists as divisions amongst themselves. The Bible clearly shows that the church cannot be divided. The body of Christ is one. Has always been one and always will be one.denominations separate FROM the body of Christ, but that separation leaves the body of Christ in tact, smaller, but still one. With each separation, it gets smaller, but still stays ONE. But as some come to the truth, they leave denominations, and that small remnant starts growing again.Always staying in the Word, guarding the unleavened Bread that came down from heaven. Careful not to add or subtract. Walking in the Spirit, staying in the light. Wearing the armor, living in the promises, bearing the fruit of faith, thirty, sixty and hundred fold, manifesting Christ; Because the ARE His body.
They have always been on the planet after Jesus. Even when the first denomination started. They were the silent minority a remnant. They still are.

Have you met them yet?

 

[Free]

You have merely posted Scripture and doing so does not constitute support for your position.

I sincerely hope to continuously merely be posting Scripture. There is no other way of knowing the truth.The mere opinions of man are the very reasons why there are denominations. They lack the respect for the mere Scriptures.

It is clear that I didn't refer to "mere Scriptures" but "merely posting" Scripture. Anyone can post Scripture--Satan quoted it to Jesus--but that doesn't mean that it supports their position.

I have shown that your position is inconsistent with that very Scripture.

No you have not, you have only shown your personal disagreement, without using Scripture.

But I did use Scripture by pointing out your contradictory use of it.

My whole point is that you seem to think that it applies to others and not you when you are just as guilty of the very things you are accusing others of.

I have not mention myself in any post. I have been addressing the issue of denominations, the topic of this treat. You must still prove your point by using Scripture.

But you do implicitly mention yourself:

"The Lord, through Paul, tells the church that they (the church) must not have factions , but to allow factions to happen to those who are factious, because this will separate them from the true church. Kind of like a natural selection. Those who adhere to man's doctrines, must move out of the true church and form denominations. That way, the true church stays pure."

You obviously think that you are a part of the true church because you think you don't "adhere to man's doctrines". What is so painfully obvious is that you are following man's doctrines--some man's, whether yours or whoever leads your church.

Here is the crux of the matter:

In decrying denominations and factions and arguing for non-denominational churches, you are only exponentially increasing the factions. You can have a million non-denominational churches, all claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit, but they will differ on any number of issues from church to church. This is not only the same as denominations, it is much worse since there is no accountability as to the truth of what is being taught.

As a first proof, I only need point out the numerous people on these boards who have claimed to only follow the Holy Spirit and have spurned churches and denominations, yet they have some wildly different beliefs than you.

As a second proof, I appeal to the founders of the denominations themselves. That is self-explanatory.

 

[jasoncran]

free i have found that many churches dont have some type of acountability in the teaching the truth.

 

[Adullam]

You have merely posted Scripture and doing so does not constitute support for your position.

I sincerely hope to continuously merely be posting Scripture. There is no other way of knowing the truth.The mere opinions of man are the very reasons why there are denominations. They lack the respect for the mere Scriptures.

[quote:2roiwego]

I have shown that your position is inconsistent with that very Scripture.

No you have not, you have only shown your personal disagreement, without using Scripture.

My whole point is that you seem to think that it applies to others and not you when you are just as guilty of the very things you are accusing others of.

I have not mention myself in any post. I have been addressing the issue of denominations, the topic of this treat. You must still prove your point by using Scripture.[/quote:2roiwego]


LOL Mere Christianity bru!

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

1Cr 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.


1Cr 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.


1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;


1Cr 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.


1Cr 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.


1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


1Cr 1:18 ¶ For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.


1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?


1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


he could have said in this day " i am of luther, i am of calvin, i am of baptism, i am of the method etc.... i am of pentecost"

the GOOD NEWS is one day we will all be called by the name of Christ alone and we will all be one unto the measure and stature and fullness of Christ.

 

[Tina]

I must ask you if you have noticed that I have not given you my opinion. I have merely told you what Paul wrote, and Paul wrote what the Holy Spirit gave him to to write, so your problem is not not with me.

Denominations manifest those who are approved.They do that by leaving the approved and flocking together around their error.

Here you are assuming that all denominations are in error ......... :naughty

During Paul's time, there were no denominations. There were false teachers, heresies and gnostics. Paul was referring to them. In today's context, you cannot conclude that all denominations are in error, although I must agree that many are in fact in error.

I am part of a church in my country for 10 years now. I never knew that it was an Anglican Church until just recently, and even then, I only came to know about it through the local newspapers. During the entire 10 years that I have worshipped in my church, not once was the name "Anglican" mentioned. I thought it was a non-denominational church ! ... The newspapers must have reported it as an Anglican church only to distinguish it from a Catholic Church which has almost the same name as my church.

There is also a Non-denominational megachurch in my country. Do note that while my "Anglican" church is very Holy Spirit-filled and biblically grounded, the Non-denominational church on the other hand have had a reputation of being a cult church because the teachings there were not quite the same.

My point is that not all denominations are in error, and being a Non-denominational church does not make it a "true" church either !

.

 

[Cornelius]

It is clear that I didn't refer to "mere Scriptures" but "merely posting" Scripture. Anyone can post Scripture--Satan quoted it to Jesus--but that doesn't mean that it supports their position.

Actually Satan misquoted Scripture and I did not. Anybody who can read with comprehension can read what the Bible says . Those verses are correctly quoted and they still mean the same thing as when they were written.

But I did use Scripture by pointing out your contradictory use of it.

I think you should repeat it maybe, as I cannot find it. You have to provide scripture that tells us that denominations are the true church.

My scriptures says, they are the ones that moved away from the true church.

But you do implicitly mention yourself:

"The Lord, through Paul, tells the church that they (the church) must not have factions , but to allow factions to happen to those who are factious, because this will separate them from the true church. Kind of like a natural selection. Those who adhere to man's doctrines, must move out of the true church and form denominations. That way, the true church stays pure."

You obviously think that you are a part of the true church because you think you don't "adhere to man's doctrines". What is so painfully obvious is that you are following man's doctrines--some man's, whether yours or whoever leads your church.

Again, it seems like you think I am giving you my opinion, whereas I am only quoting Scripture in the matter.If I gave you my opinion, you would be correct in assuming that I am guilty. However, I am only standing on Scripture. In this case you are the one who is in reality standing against scripture and offering my your opinion and you want to tell me that is the correct way. Well it is not. That is man's way (opinions) We are not allowed to add to the Word of God.

Here is the crux of the matter:

In decrying denominations and factions and arguing for non-denominational churches, you are only exponentially increasing the factions. You can have a million non-denominational churches, all claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit, but they will differ on any number of issues from church to church. This is not only the same as denominations, it is much worse since there is no accountability as to the truth of what is being taught.

As a first proof, I only need point out the numerous people on these boards who have claimed to only follow the Holy Spirit and have spurned churches and denominations, yet they have some wildly different beliefs than you.

As a second proof, I appeal to the founders of the denominations themselves. That is self-explanatory.

I am in agreement with this. Saying something is so is not the same is it being so. Therefor Jesus said we need a simple test. "Ye shall know them by their fruit" There is no such thing in the Bible as a non-denominational church, that too is just another name for a denomination.If believers manifest Christ through the gospel, they are obviously in agreement with God .

The sad truth is that believers cannot see themselves as the church anymore. The see churches (plural) . We all know this, because you can read any thread about the church and the word churches comes up. Not like Paul wrote churches , meaning the same church in different places, no, we mean denominations.We call the schisms "churches". We have given up, thinking that , that is the way it is now, no matter what God wants. That is wrong.

We all still have a bit of Egypt in us.Even those who have started to come out of the schisms.Me too. God is still busy removing the doctrines of man from me bit by bit.

We can only do this WITH God. We have to ask Him to show the way. If we do not, we still land up in the same error again. The Holy Spirit always agrees with the Word of God, so those who claim He is leading them, must also be in line with the Word , not fighting it.

 

[Cornelius]

Here you are assuming that all denominations are in error ......... :naughty

I am not assuming anything. I am only giving you what God says to us through Paul.

During Paul's time, there were no denominations. There were false teachers, heresies and gnostics. Paul was referring to them. In today's context, you cannot conclude that all denominations are in error, although I must agree that many are in fact in error.

Factions are denominations (schism, sects) They were already starting in Paul's day.

I am part of a church in my country for 10 years now. I never knew that it was an Anglican Church until just recently, and even then, I only came to know about it through the local newspapers. During the entire 10 years that I have worshipped in my church, not once was the name "Anglican" mentioned. I thought it was a non-denominational church ! ... The newspapers must have reported it as an Anglican church only to distinguish it from a Catholic Church which has almost the same name as my church.

Yes, the Catholic church is also a denomination.

There is also a Non-denominational megachurch in my country. Do note that while my "Anglican" church is very Holy Spirit-filled and biblically grounded, the Non-denominational church on the other hand have had a reputation of being a cult church because the teachings there were not quite the same.

That is normally what we do with those who disagree with us, we label them as a cult, so that our members will be scared to leave and join such a group. Anybody who disagrees with the teaching of a particular denomination would be wrong in the eyes of that denomination.(and vice versa ) So the truth suffers in the battle. The truth looses out.

My point is that not all denominations are in error, and being a Non-denominational church does not make it a "true" church either !

The Bible says, that denominations remove error out of the true church. Non-denominational is only another denomination as well.

 

[Tina]

That is normally what we do with those who disagree with us, we label them as a cult, so that our members will be scared to leave and join such a group. Anybody who disagrees with the teaching of a particular denomination would be wrong in the eyes of that denomination.(and vice versa ) So the truth suffers in the battle. The truth looses out.

There will always be people who disagree with one another. They don't turn into cults just by disagreements with one another. Cults evolve because they disagree with the BIBLE.

The Bible says, that denominations remove error out of the true church. Non-denominational is only another denomination as well.

The BIble says, that FACTIONS and DIVISIONS that disagree with the very WORD OF GOD remove error out of the true church, which is NOT necessarily the denominations as we call them today. I have been to many churches of different denominations in my country and I can honestly say that except for the style of worship, I do not know of any other difference, wrong teachings or non-biblical doctrines followed by the churches.

Perhaps, you can shed some light on why you disagree with the various mainstream denominations. ie. Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Evangelical, and Pentecostal. Which part of the doctrines of the denominations do you think is in error, which you said the Bible said, and which you seem very sure that it is these denominations that the Bible is referring to.

.

 

[Cornelius]

There will always be people who disagree with one another. They don't turn into cults just by disagreements with one another. Cults evolve because they disagree with the BIBLE.
That is correct. And there will always be people who agree with each other as well, because they agree on what the Bible says. And all those who are in agreement with the Bible is the true church.
Denominations are there , because of disagreements not because of agreements.

The BIble says, that FACTIONS and DIVISIONS that disagree with the very WORD OF GOD remove error out of the true church, which is NOT necessarily the denominations as we call them today.

Its also not necessarily NOT them.



[quote:2es6epst]
I have been to many churches of different denominations in my country and I can honestly say that except for the style of worship, I do not know of any other difference, wrong teachings or non-biblical doctrines followed by the churches.

They are there, you cannot always just see them through the door. You must be there for a while to know why a Baptist will not join with a Pentecostal.

Perhaps, you can shed some light on why you disagree with the various mainstream denominations. ie. Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Evangelical, and Pentecostal. Which part of the doctrines of the denominations do you think is in error, which you said the Bible said, and which you seem very sure that it is these denominations that the Bible is referring to.

[/quote:2es6epst]

Its Biblical. I am really not giving you my opinion. I am just repeating what Paul spoke of.

So logically, those who agree always flock together. You can see and understand that? I am sure you do. So in the same way, those who agree only with the Word flock together today in the same way as they did in the time of Paul. You must know that some people cannot sit in denominations, because of one major error. Jesus hated it as well. The Nicolaitan error. (One pastor over the people of God, ruling them.) If you find a fellowship where they have the five fold ministry in working order, you will be more safe, than going to one where there is none.

 

[Tina]

Its Biblical. I am really not giving you my opinion. I am just repeating what Paul spoke of.

So logically, those who agree always flock together. You can see and understand that? I am sure you do. So in the same way, those who agree only with the Word flock together today in the same way as they did in the time of Paul. You must know that some people cannot sit in denominations, because of one major error. Jesus hated it as well. The Nicolaitan error. (One pastor over the people of God, ruling them.) If you find a fellowship where they have the five fold ministry in working order, you will be more safe, than going to one where there is none.

Are you saying that there should be no pastors ? ..........

The BIble clearly talks about pastors leading a church. You don't agree with that ?


.

 

[Cornelius]

Its Biblical. I am really not giving you my opinion. I am just repeating what Paul spoke of.

So logically, those who agree always flock together. You can see and understand that? I am sure you do. So in the same way, those who agree only with the Word flock together today in the same way as they did in the time of Paul. You must know that some people cannot sit in denominations, because of one major error. Jesus hated it as well. The Nicolaitan error. (One pastor over the people of God, ruling them.) If you find a fellowship where they have the five fold ministry in working order, you will be more safe, than going to one where there is none.

Are you saying that there should be no pastors ? ..........

The BIble clearly talks about pastors leading a church. You don't agree with that ?



.

I am not saying that.

I am saying that the Bible does not ever show us that a congregation would ever have only the pastor that teaches, leads and rules the flock. Nowhere do we see that. The Bible speaks of FIVE ministries that God gave for the perfecting of the saints.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

So the error they teach you , is this: They tell you that there is no more five fold ministry.

If you believe them, then have joined them in their error. I am not going to argue to convince you , because those who really want to know, immediately run to God and ask Him for themselves.
Ask your Father about denominations and ask Him about the five fold ministry. He will answer if you really want to know the truth.

blessings
C

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, the Catholic church is also a denomination.

What is your definition of a "denomination"?

I find these conversations interesting, but will restrain myself and only ask the above question...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I am saying that the Bible does not ever show us that a congregation would ever have only the pastor that teaches, leads and rules the flock. Nowhere do we see that. The Bible speaks of FIVE ministries that God gave for the perfecting of the saints.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Cornelius,

Where does this or any other verse in Scriptures tell us that these "five ministries" all were involved in leadership positions and that a pastor was not responsible for teaching, leading and ruling his flock? No doubt, you will soon say that all people are "teachers, pastors, prophets, apostles, and evangelists", using a definition taken out of context, thus, doing away with the intent of Scriptures when it tells us that we ARE to follow and obey our pastors... But we call this "eigesis".

Reconsider reading Titus 1. For what reason did Paul appoint elders/bishops in Crete if this "five ministries" exists as you believe?

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

Yes, the Catholic church is also a denomination.

What is your definition of a "denomination"?

I find these conversations interesting, but will restrain myself and only ask the above question...

Regards

Let me rather not give you my definition , lets stick to the Word:

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been signified unto me concerning you, my brethren, by them that are of the household of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul?

All who move outside of this is a schism , sect, denomination.

 

[Cornelius]

I am saying that the Bible does not ever show us that a congregation would ever have only the pastor that teaches, leads and rules the flock. Nowhere do we see that. The Bible speaks of FIVE ministries that God gave for the perfecting of the saints.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Cornelius,

Where does this or any other verse in Scriptures tell us that these "five ministries" all were involved in leadership positions and that a pastor was not responsible for teaching, leading and ruling his flock? No doubt, you will soon say that all people are "teachers, pastors, prophets, apostles, and evangelists", using a definition taken out of context, thus, doing away with the intent of Scriptures when it tells us that we ARE to follow and obey our pastors... But we call this "eigesis".

Reconsider reading Titus 1. For what reason did Paul appoint elders/bishops in Crete if this "five ministries" exists as you believe?

Regards

Again, let me rather use Scripture:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;
Eph 4:16 from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.

 

[Adullam]

An elder is an older person. It is implied as well that this is an older person with some years in the Lord as well.

There is an overseer. In Greek this is the Episkopos....literally..."over seer." An overseer is chosen from among the elders. He does NOT rule over the flock, but brings order where it is required. The Greek for the words "the office of Bishop" is episkope. This word means "visitation" as in being dealt with or guided from above...a divine inspection. This same word is used in the verse "they did not know the time of their visitation (the time of their episkope)." Luke 19:44

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.G1984 (Episkope)

This word in the Greek corresponds to pekoudah in the OT. These words are cross referenced within the bible itself as OT verses are repeated in the Greek. Pekoudah means visitation.

So we are not to desire the "office of a bishop" as some translations say...that is vainglorious and not in keeping with the Spirit. We are rather to desire a divine inspection through a visitation (episkope) from on high. This in turn qualifies one to see to the proper order in the gatherings.


The gifts are to flow freely within and among the brethren. All may minister and are encouraged to do so in the measure that is given them through the Spirit. Where there is no freedom in this way, there is no Spirit in the leadership.
We are called to NOT quench the Spirit.

"....Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Cor. 3:17

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption:forG1063 of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

There is freedom for the disciple. Freedom from bondage and control from others. Freedom from sectarianism and denominations. Are we saved by denominations or Christ? Having begun in the Spirit let us continue to be led into all truth through the same Spirit that is given freely to us.

 

[Vince]

Another interesting thought:

Christian groups tend to follow their own leaders.If a successful ministry disagrees with their doctrines, they often will not listen to those leaders. They listen to their own leaders, and eventually, they get isolated.

I learned a LOT from John R. Rice, an independent Baptist, when I was a new Christian. Years later, I was amazed at how much I learned from Bill Gothard, whom my group didn't associate with. After almost forty years as a Christian, my wife and I are attending a soul-winning Assembly of God church here in Mexico, and while we are not charismatics, we are both surprised at how much we are learning from our pastor.

 

[lovely]

I think that the 'church' is non-denominational, and is made up of different parts of the body unified and led by our Head...and always growing toward a mature love. As far as local assemblies are concerned, we are called to have qualified elders lead us, and those men to discern who is qualified for service, and to maintain order. They have has many years of applying the Word, and following Christ...we may follow them as long as they follow Christ. If we are applying ourselves to Jesus, then we will naturally gravitate to believers who are doing the same and be repelled by those who aren't...we will learn disernment, be transformed by the Spirit, as we seek His glory alone.