Should the churches have some say in divorce

[Willie T]

The veil has been removed.

Sorry, you still seem to be way off on a hill somewhere, and I'm not sure where.

 

[iLOVE]

Sorry, you still seem to be way off on a hill somewhere, and I'm not sure where.

8"Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." 9And He was saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." Mark 4:8 -9 NASB

 

[Deborah13]

That's exactly what I had in mind. The lambs as well as the younger sheep need to have their shepherds sitting down and talking about the wolves and warning as well as teaching. If this were happening, things would be quite different.

Also, in the case where one or the other spouse is saved, there should be nothing to prevent shepherds from sitting down with both spouses and explaing that now there is a spiritual conflict within the home which needs to be resolved, otherwise it will result in an emotional and financial disaster. Why is this not happening? The solution is Christ Himself. God wanted shepherds tending His flocks. Instead we have the wolves and the Roaring Lion destroying them.

I have a lot of compassion for pastors. I think most of them have not been adequately trained to deal with many marital issues. I think that most people, I don't think I'm the only one, don't seek help until things get really bad or until someone else forces them to. This makes the pastor's job that much harder.
Certainly pastors can and do sit down with an unbeliever and a believer and try to counsel them. But the unbeliever is not going to be moved by the scriptures, in most cases, so that immediately removes one of the reasons that Christian counseling can be so effective.
I think the biggest problem is that people don't reach out for counseling before it may be too late. I was raised in the times when what happened in the home, stayed in the home. No airing of dirty laundry. Adultery, abuse, fights, they were all covered up.
Maybe pastors could help with this problem by giving sermons that encourage people to share more openly and let them know that they are not alone.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah, I've always read that verse as pertaining to Christ.

It is pertaining to Christ.

 

[Kathi]

The person we went to was a psychologist with a PHD and had been through seminary.This person was referred to us by our Pastor.The person specializes in Marriage counseling.My X was so appalled by what this person had to say which of course was the truth he only saw the counselor twice and refused to go back.

 

[Deborah13]

The person we went to was a psychologist with a PHD and had been through seminary.This person was referred to us by our Pastor.The person specializes in Marriage counseling.My X was so appalled by what this person had to say which of course was the truth he only saw the counselor twice and refused to go back.

My ex loved counseling, he went for a couple of years. He was the center of attention.
The counselor was also a degreed psychologist and a pastor.

 

[jasonc]

These are tough questions. I think that the church already has this power.
The RCC's, hold over someone who divorces without their permission is that they are excommunicate by the church. This instills great fear because the way they get their sins forgiven is by confessing to the priest, not the Lord. So take that element away and guess what they are doomed to hell forever, they cannot receive forgiveness, that is what they believe.

In the Protestant faith the same thing can happen. Get kick out of the church. However, there is not the same element of fear of church power. We receive forgiveness directly through Christ, not a pastor. And one can always attend a different church.

I don't know and have never read that the Jewish church has ever excommunicated a man for giving his wife a 'get', a divorce decree. idk I do know that if he does that then she is free to remarry. I have read the wording in a modern day 'get', it reads like the principles that are in the OT divorce decree. I also know that the Rabbi's decide what settlement and support the man will provide to his wife and children. In the cases where a man leaves his wife but refuses to give her a 'get' the Rabbi's will step in and try to force him to do that because it is unfair to the wife to not give her, her freedom.

So I don't see how the church could have anymore power than it already does. In the theocracy that God Himself set up the church did not hand out divorce decrees and divorce was not given by any court or priest. At least I don't see it in the law of Moses or the NT.

uhm try to force him? do we really want the church to arrest and detain men for that? failure to pay child support? not that would work, it doesn't. the government does jail men for that but it doesn't really solve the problem.

 

[Willie T]

I have a lot of compassion for pastors. I think most of them have not been adequately trained to deal with many marital issues. I think that most people, I don't think I'm the only one, don't seek help until things get really bad or until someone else forces them to. This makes the pastor's job that much harder.
Certainly pastors can and do sit down with an unbeliever and a believer and try to counsel them. But the unbeliever is not going to be moved by the scriptures, in most cases, so that immediately removes one of the reasons that Christian counseling can be so effective.
I think the biggest problem is that people don't reach out for counseling before it may be too late. I was raised in the times when what happened in the home, stayed in the home. No airing of dirty laundry. Adultery, abuse, fights, they were all covered up.
Maybe pastors could help with this problem by giving sermons that encourage people to share more openly and let them know that they are not alone.

(EXPAND Quote, please)
Both very sad and true statements.

 

[jeff77]

Our church has a divorce care ministry. I am not sure what all it involves except that it is to help the children and parents deal with the sadness that comes with divorce. I'm not sure I agree with it either, but still I don't know enough about it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe pastors could help with this problem by giving sermons that encourage people to share more openly and let them know that they are not alone.

In the typical church, how do you reach out during the only time the body of Christ thinks means anything in church--during the sermon? Even the Bible Studies, if people go, are disconnected sermons aimed at the body, and not a volleyball that gets tapped back and forth to each other.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

8"Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." 9And He was saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." Mark 4:8 -9 NASB

Willie, I think they're saying you don't have ears to hear(?)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They will go to hell?That depends.We are all sinners.You and I .We sin every day.We repent of those sins.Who is to say that someone is going to hell unless they are an unbelievers.I am OSAS and I know that you are not a believer in OSAS.If a person is divorcing a spouse for petty reasons that is wrong.But if you are talking about abuse that is in a different ballpark.I have known couple where infidelity is involved and they have stayed together.Yes,the Bible does say that they need to remain single if they do not have a Biblical divorce.Some stay single even if they did have a Biblical divorce.

I've been trying to think of a way to address this without derailing the thread.

In a sense, people don't go to hell for getting an unBiblical divorce. They go to hell for not believing in, and therefore reaching out for, the forgiveness God has provided for people who have done that. We can leave the OSAS part out of it and agree that it is unbelievers (those who don't believe in the forgiveness of God) who will go to hell, not struggling, even failing Christians who cling to the forgiveness of God in their struggle with sin.

As far as this thread is concerned, I really do think the church must be involved in divorce in that in should be condemning unBiblical divorce. Just as it should be involved in condemning unlawful marriage. But the church seems to have taken a hands off approach and looks the other way when congregants get a divorce for any and all reasons and don't require the person(s) who did that to seek God in a renunciation of that sin and a restoration through forgiveness.

God knows how hard marriage is and divorce is going to happen among his people for the wrong reasons. But that hardly negates the need for the church to lead those who have done that to the forgiveness of God for doing that. But we do not do that. We have a 'hands off' policy regarding that. I suppose so we don't offend anyone. And everybody knows we can't be offending anyone in the church regarding their sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

uhm try to force him? do we really want the church to arrest and detain men for that? failure to pay child support? not that would work, it doesn't. the government does jail men for that but it doesn't really solve the problem.

Hey, we got grammar police in this forum, so why not child support police, too?

 

[Deborah13]

uhm try to force him? do we really want the church to arrest and detain men for that? failure to pay child support? not that would work, it doesn't. the government does jail men for that but it doesn't really solve the problem.

The Rabbis cannot arrest anyone. At least not here in the US. They use leverage, like getting kicked out of the congregation, being shunned to try to force the man to comply. It could also effect their livelihood because so many Jews own their own businesses in Jewish areas of a city. Who are their customers mainly? Other Jews. So one doesn't want to be blackballed.

 

[Deborah13]

Our church has a divorce care ministry. I am not sure what all it involves except that it is to help the children and parents deal with the sadness that comes with divorce. I'm not sure I agree with it either, but still I don't know enough about it.

I think that ministry is a move in the right direction. Number one children suffer because of the decisions their parents have made and they need help dealing with those issues. It doesn't do much good to try to heal the children without including the healing of the parents. Bitterness after a divorce can be toxic to the rest of the child's life. Parents need to own up, buck up, swallow their pride and get on being healthy parents but they may need help to heal.
This ministry could be tied into a teen program that teaches them who is safe and who is not or what to look for before they even start dating. Attack the issues that cause divorces before they happen. Teens from divorced homes sharing with those who are not from divorced homes. Kids from abusive homes talking to kids who are not so that those teens understand how devastating and damaging these marriages are. Kids listen to kids but we are not making sure that some of what they are listening to is important, something besides cute clothes, music, video games, etc.

 

[jasonc]

The Rabbis cannot arrest anyone. At least not here in the US. They use leverage, like getting kicked out of the congregation, being shunned to try to force the man to comply. It could also effect their livelihood because so many Jews own their own businesses in Jewish areas of a city. Who are their customers mainly? Other Jews. So one doesn't want to be blackballed.

not all jews do that. where I live, we have but one temple. no jewish community that are gated and closed to the goy.

 

[Deborah13]

not all jews do that. where I live, we have but one temple. no jewish community that are gated and closed to the goy.

Where did I say anything about anything being closed to the goy?
What I said was that in the city many own businesses in their communities, the areas that they live in within the city. So most of their customers are other Jews. Not that they will not sell to others, they are not stupid people. Smart others deliberately go to a Jewish community within the city to buy certain foods, clothing, jewelry, etc. because the Jews have the best quality of that product.
The Jews are not the only ones who have communities inside of larger communities. People of shared culture, language, religion, and other background similarities will do this. Italians, Polish, Hispanic, Irish, Russian, Chinese, etc. ie. China Town My daughter-in-laws parents owned and operated a grocery store in China Town before they retired. When we picked up her wedding apparel it was from a store owned by a Chinese woman on the outskirts of China Town. The wedding reception was at a facility owned by a Chinese man and the caterers were Chinese. They serviced a lot of traditional Chinese food. There was chicken that still had it's head attached, yuck.

 

[Je'di-Benjamin]

What are your views on Christians having some kind of divorce decree from their church?
The thread on marriage has got me to thinking about this...
In most states you can divorce because you dont like the color of the others hair... Should Christians settle for a government divorce?
I dont have an opinion at this point , but like i wish the church was more involved in marriage should it also be more involved in divorce?

Do not hinder free will. Action=reaction="solution"(+/-). live and let live/die, pray for those who are lost and wounded. For our brothers and sister, there is only one reason to legally divorce someone, Adultery. now scripturally define parameters of adultery "even looking at a woman with lust is committing adultery in the heart" but what should we say to our partners? "soooooo sorry I had that dream babe..."

 

[jasonc]

Where did I say anything about anything being closed to the goy?
What I said was that in the city many own businesses in their communities, the areas that they live in within the city. So most of their customers are other Jews. Not that they will not sell to others, they are not stupid people. Smart others deliberately go to a Jewish community within the city to buy certain foods, clothing, jewelry, etc. because the Jews have the best quality of that product.
The Jews are not the only ones who have communities inside of larger communities. People of shared culture, language, religion, and other background similarities will do this. Italians, Polish, Hispanic, Irish, Russian, Chinese, etc. ie. China Town My daughter-in-laws parents owned and operated a grocery store in China Town before they retired. When we picked up her wedding apparel it was from a store owned by a Chinese woman on the outskirts of China Town. The wedding reception was at a facility owned by a Chinese man and the caterers were Chinese. They serviced a lot of traditional Chinese food. There was chicken that still had it's head attached, yuck.

I know of that but well are you familiar with the jewish centers in Miami, where they are just as I said? schools and the temple and home in the center of the community. relatives live in those.

and yeah are suggesting that today? good luck with that. one can just find another person to rent from, buy from and employ you.

 

[iLOVE]

Willie, I think they're saying you don't have ears to hear(?)

Jethro, Willie heard the word, but only 30% of it. The 60% and 100% will be revealed when God allows him. Each time when a Christian hears the word of God or read the word of God, information is revealed if God permits. Whenever the light-bulb moment happens this is the Holy Spirit revealing information. Again, only if God permits. Hebrews 6:3 NKJV