Should Tookie Die? December 13 deadline.

[bibleberean]

Convicted killer Williams put to death in Calif.

MSNBC

Williams, 51, died at 12:35 a.m. PT after receiving a lethal injection at San Quentin State Prison, officials said. Before the execution, he was "complacent, quiet and thoughtful," Corrections Department spokeswoman Terry Thornton said.

Condemned for 1981 killings

Williams was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Witnesses at the trial said Williams boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes, according to the transcript that the governor referenced in his denial of clemency...

...In the days leading up to the execution, state and federal courts refused to reopen his case. Monday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency, suggesting that his supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the countless killings committed by the Crips.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Convicted killer Williams put to death in Calif.

MSNBC

Williams, 51, died at 12:35 a.m. PT after receiving a lethal injection at San Quentin State Prison, officials said. Before the execution, he was "complacent, quiet and thoughtful," Corrections Department spokeswoman Terry Thornton said.

[quote:a84e4]Condemned for 1981 killings

Williams was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Witnesses at the trial said Williams boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes, according to the transcript that the governor referenced in his denial of clemency...

...In the days leading up to the execution, state and federal courts refused to reopen his case. Monday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency, suggesting that his supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the countless killings committed by the Crips.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

[/quote:a84e4]Ah yes, good old america. We have again shown how we try to be the top nation but are nothing more then a third world country of barbarism. We may have money but we are probably the most corrupt of them all, and this display of killing another human just showns it more.

 

[Drew]

I used to be a soft believer in capital punishment, I now oppose it. Christians who support the death penalty often cite verses to support their view. As others have pointed out, however, the whole approach of searching for "one-liners" to support any position is extremely dubious. For every verse that seems to promote capital punishment, one can find verses that promote mercy and forgiveness. I think of Jesus words: "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies". This is totally alien to our natural inclinations. What it means to love our enemies is unclear, but it most certainly does not involve killing them without need.

I believe that abolition of capital punishment would constitute a societal exercise of grace - and my sense is that, for the Christian, grace is a "higher consideration" than justice. After all, we have received grace and not justice that is in fact our due.

 

[AHIMSA]

Very well put Drew.

 

[bibleberean]

What it means to love our enemies is unclear, but it most certainly does not involve killing them without need.

Jesus is going to put people to death when He returns.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


The death penalty was established by God. It is not something that is used lightly and it certainly can be abused by man but there are so many scriptures where God has instructed that for certain crimes people should to be put to death that it is beyond questioning.

Either these words are true or they are not.

Genesis 9:5-6 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

 

[Dave...]

Lyrics dad wrote:

Ah yes, good old america. We have again shown how we try to be the top nation but are nothing more then a third world country of barbarism. We may have money but we are probably the most corrupt of them all, and this display of killing another human just showns it more.

I agree, but not because a murderer was put to death, but because we murder three million babies a year in this country. A lot of the same people who wanted to save Tookie also wanted Terri Schiavo to be murdered. Where is the reasoning in that?

 

[bibleberean]

From MSNBC

In denying clemency to Williams, Schwarzenegger said that the evidence of his guilt was “strong and compelling,†and he dismissed suggestions that the trial was unfair.

The governor noted that Williams dedicated his 1998 book “Life in Prison†to a list of figures that included the black militant George Jackson  “a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems.¢â‚¬Â

 

[Solo]

Convicted killer Williams put to death in Calif.

MSNBC

Williams, 51, died at 12:35 a.m. PT after receiving a lethal injection at San Quentin State Prison, officials said. Before the execution, he was "complacent, quiet and thoughtful," Corrections Department spokeswoman Terry Thornton said.

[quote:26fdd]Condemned for 1981 killings

Williams was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Witnesses at the trial said Williams boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes, according to the transcript that the governor referenced in his denial of clemency...

...In the days leading up to the execution, state and federal courts refused to reopen his case. Monday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency, suggesting that his supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the countless killings committed by the Crips.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

Ah yes, good old america. We have again shown how we try to be the top nation but are nothing more then a third world country of barbarism. We may have money but we are probably the most corrupt of them all, and this display of killing another human just showns it more.[/quote:26fdd]
What are your thoughts on God's final judgment of unbelievers? There demise in the eternal will be so that the Bible says that it would be better that they were not born at all.

Does God set up the governments of men for order and justice?

When Jesus returns with the sword, are you going to speak out against him as well?

 

[Solo]

Lyrics dad wrote:

Ah yes, good old america. We have again shown how we try to be the top nation but are nothing more then a third world country of barbarism. We may have money but we are probably the most corrupt of them all, and this display of killing another human just showns it more.

I agree, but not because a murderer was put to death, but because we murder three million babies a year in this country. A lot of the same people who wanted to save Tookie also wanted Terri Schiavo to be murdered. Where is the reasoning in that?

Good point Dave...! It is pretty easy to spot one who is against God's Word when you evaluate their entire stand on the issues like abortion, euthanasia, death penalty, homosexuality, murder, etc.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

What it means to love our enemies is unclear, but it most certainly does not involve killing them without need.

Jesus is going to put people to death when He returns.

Well, that is not without debate but even so, we are not Jesus.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Convicted killer Williams put to death in Calif.

MSNBC

Williams, 51, died at 12:35 a.m. PT after receiving a lethal injection at San Quentin State Prison, officials said. Before the execution, he was "complacent, quiet and thoughtful," Corrections Department spokeswoman Terry Thornton said.

[quote:d1c10]Condemned for 1981 killings

Williams was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Witnesses at the trial said Williams boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes, according to the transcript that the governor referenced in his denial of clemency...

...In the days leading up to the execution, state and federal courts refused to reopen his case. Monday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency, suggesting that his supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the countless killings committed by the Crips.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

Ah yes, good old america. We have again shown how we try to be the top nation but are nothing more then a third world country of barbarism. We may have money but we are probably the most corrupt of them all, and this display of killing another human just showns it more.

What are your thoughts on God's final judgment of unbelievers? There demise in the eternal will be so that the Bible says that it would be better that they were not born at all.

Does God set up the governments of men for order and justice?

When Jesus returns with the sword, are you going to speak out against him as well?[/quote:d1c10]LOL!

Well, I certainly do not subscribe to such things but then again, we don't discuss those issues here.

And it would be nice if you could refrain from comparing humans to God

 

[Solo]

Man is not God; however, believers have God living inside of them, and should allow him to be the one guiding their lives. Believers are children of God and are joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. Believers will judge the world and they will judge the angels.

Jesus is our example to follow, and I don't read anywhere in the gospel where Jesus spoke against the death penalty that killed two convicts and himself at Golgotha.

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:17

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 1 Corinthians 6:1-8

 

[SputnikBoy]

I'm with you on this one, LD. I can't emphasize enough the fact that God gave us a brain as well as the Bible. The way the Bible is used on this forum at times to justify killing and hostilities toward certain groups of people goes against everything my brain tells me is good and proper.

 

[peace4all]

I just.. I always miss the "pro-life but pro death stance.

But it does coincide with the "war is good" stance.

a sin is a sin is a sin. punishing some sins more severly than others is.. well is it good?

I noted that it was brought up that the bible justifies putting a man to death for murder.

I do wish to know

Why, as an atheist, do I continue to live?

 

[bibleberean]

I just.. I always miss the "pro-life but pro death stance.

But it does coincide with the "war is good" stance.

a sin is a sin is a sin. punishing some sins more severly than others is.. well is it good?

I noted that it was brought up that the bible justifies putting a man to death for murder.

I do wish to know

Why, as an atheist, do I continue to live?

Christians are pro life because they have find the idea of slicing, hacking and killing a baby to pieces for the "crime" of being alive as evil and repugnant.

Executing justice on a person who slaughters people and has been tried and convicted isn't the same thing by a long shot.

Why are you "alive being an Atheist?"

What on earth does that mean?

I can guess but I might be wrong so please, explain. :roll:

 

[peace4all]

well the bible says that justice for murder, is death.

the bible says justice for being an atheist, is death.

 

[bibleberean]

well the bible says that justice for murder, is death.

the bible says justice for being an atheist, is death.

Where and when did God institute the death sentence for Atheists?

 

[peace4all]

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)


or, are they all just for the israelis?

and if so? then where does the bible say to murder people for murder, that Isn't just for israel?

 

[bibleberean]

The death sentence applied to Israel and to the people who resided within her borders.

How does an Atheist entice someone to "worship other gods" when they claim they don't believe in any god?

There are no verses in which man or governments outside of Israel are instructed by God to put Atheists to death.

Christians are not instructed to put anyone to death for worshiping other gods or for denying the existence of God.

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry...


Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.


Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Acts 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Paul does not say all idolaters are to be put to death.

He says they are to repent.

An athiest claims that they do not believe in God.

The bible calls them "fools" and rightly so.

Jesus told His disciples...

Luke 9:52-56 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

 

[bibleberean]

The death penalty was given to Noah after the flood centuries before Moses and the laws for Israel were given.

Genesis 9:5-6 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.