Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?

[GodsGrace]

Rebecca is Reba.

She banned me for double spacing.




JLB

What?
You know what forum I'm speaking of???
Reba is calvinist?

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry about that. Thought I had a quote in there. You said Calvinists thought God was a monster. Seemed like a pretty strong accusation. I don't think they would worship and adore a God they thought was a monster.

Right.
I did say that Calvinists believe that God is a monster.
Pretty strong...right. God is NOT a monster and calvinism changes God' s character. No denomination has the right to change God's character.

I hope you realize that there was no such doctrine as the reformed taught for 1,500 years till the "calvinists" came along: Luther, Knox, Zilwig, etc.

Simply put, any god that would send his very own creation (and most of it according to the N.T.) to hell, based on NOTHING, except His will and desire
AND
that He does this to show us his GLORY!
would be a monster indeed.

Can't get around that Avigdor.

 

[Barnaby]

It would help if we kept on topic.

Blessings to You.....Barnaby

 

[GodsGrace]

It would help if we kept on topic.

Blessings to You.....Barnaby

What is off topic?

Also, sometimes we forget and get a little sidetracked....
as long as we get back pretty quick.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Barnaby]

"You know what forum I'm speaking of???"

Was off topic to "Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?"

 

[Barnaby]

Thx for the welcome though.

 

[GodsGrace]

"You know what forum I'm speaking of???"

Was off topic to "Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?"

Well Barnaby,,,
we're like a family here,,,so I think you might loosen up a bit on this.
You'll get used to it and learn to like us a whole lot !

We DO get back on topic after a post or two.
No problem.

 

[Barnaby]

I was wondering if, after so many posts, we answered Michelina's question: "Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?" Or is it unsolvable and part of the mystery that will be revealed when Christ returns?

 

[GodsGrace]

This comentary on my comments is so long, or it would be way to involved (not to mention useless and unnecessary) to try to clarify myself, but I am positive that I understand correctly what Calvinisim teaches and you obviously do not. Nothing wrong with that, just stating a fact.[/QUOTE]
I DID explain WHY your comments were conflictual so I won't linger on the above comment by you.

If you're not clear,,,how does a conversation take place?
And why would ANY explanation of Christianity be toooo involved?
If something cannot be explained in 25 words or less, there's some problem present.

Since I explained myself properly,,,and I explained what calvinism teaches,,,you cannot then tell me that I do NOT understand it.

If you think I don't understand it and you claim to be a Calvinist,,,you should correct me.
That's what I would do with anyone not understanding basic Christianity.

But, unlike God,,,I cannot force you.

So I will just say a couple of things. Not to change your mind, it is yours, and I have no desire to tamper with it or manipulate it. I only want to show you where you are misunderstanding me and Calvinism.

We won't be changing each other's minds.
And thanks for explaining...ignore the above comments.
I post as I go.
Let's see what I've misunderstood about the reformed doctrine.

Adam and Eve had absolute free will. They made a very bad choice that now infects all of mankind, both all in everyone, and all our being, including our will. The will does not do anything on its own. We will to do one thing over another according to internal or external pressures. If it's raining, for example, we may decide not to take a walk when really we would like to take a walk. I'm sure you know this but we often overlook things when bias puts pressure on our will.

Huh?
Libertarian free will means we have NO EXTERNAL pressures but make our decision based on our own desires....especially moral free will.

You may be describing free will which is accepted philosophically above...but I'm not interested in that....this is theology.

I agree that Adam's sin has affected all of humanity. I agree that we are born sinners as both Jesus and Paul explain. Our sinful nature TENDS toward evil....but even unsaved persons can do good deeds. We are not so depraved as to be unable to see God around us.
God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time. Romans 1:19-20
It is up to us to serve either God or satan.
Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
We present OURSELVES to the one we wish to serve.

The will that God gave to us as part of our creation still exists, Calvinisim nowhere says it was taken away. They merely say it fell like all the rest of our parts. The Bible says all of mans ways are continually wicked. We are bent that way now. The will was free in Adam and Eve, now it is enslaved and needs to be regenerated, reborn. Something only God can do. We cannot give birth to ourselves. That is the Calvinist view.

Regeneration before faith.
This is not taught in scripture.

The ordo salutis is:

1. belief
2. regeneration

We are JUSTIFIED by FAITH then we have peace with God.
1. FAITH
2. JUSTIFICATION
3. PEACE
Romans 5:1
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

I said regarding unconditional election that the conditions for God choosing us are in Him. Not in us. And that is what the TULIP means by it. It is not conditional upon anything we have done or said, not conditional on our goodness or badness, our race or nationality or religion. Not our hair color or where we live or how rich or poor we are. Not based on what we will or will not do. He, God, has a reason and we can't lnow what it is but it is none of the things, with etc. added, listed above.

I've stated many times that Calvinism teaches that we are chosen UNCONDITIONALLY.
No need to explain UNCONDITIONAL....we all know what it means.
It means GOD CHOOSES US BASED ON NOTHING,,,except HIS desire and will and sends the rest to hell with no opportunity for salvation.

The N.T. teaches that God saves CONDITIONALLY.
And, unlike what you state above about not being able to actually KNOW how God chooses,,,the God of the bible WANTS man to know how to be saved and has thus given us both the written word and the Living Word (Jesus) so that we may know.

God want ALL MEN to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

WHY does God want ALL MEN to be saved?
Because He is a loving God.
1 John 4:8b
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

And so, an all-good God that is Love itself, let's man know His CONDITION for salvation:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Yes, the above verse is AN INSTRUCTION....
NOT A statement, as you believe.

Have you ever gently coaxed a puppy or kitten to come to you, and because of your gentleness it came, and you took it in your arms and loved it, fed it, gave it a warm place to sleep beside you, cared for it gently and sweetly? Would you call that forcing?

NO. I would call that drawing...
as in John 6:44 and John 12:32.

Please don't get your analogies mixed up with what you posted before that...
they do not agree.

Have you ever purchased 3 puppies
and you treated one really well and fed it and loved it and gave it a warm place to sleep....
And instead you mistreated the other two, made them go h ungry, did not love them, and made them sleep outside in the cold? And FOR NOT REASON,,,poor little things.

THIS is the god YOU serve.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was wondering if, after so many posts, we answered Michelina's question: "Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?" Or is it unsolvable and part of the mystery that will be revealed when Christ returns?

Is this your first forum?
O.P.'s get started and they take on a life of their own.
Michelina has had many replies and she may not even be around anymore.

 

[Barnaby]

No, it is not my first forum. In fact I worked as an online Moderator years ago. Is there any reason you seem so antagonistic about this?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I find infants were baptised according to the writings of the early church fathers. However, I find no support for such a position in the NT.

Oz

I agree.

Let me just say for those reading along that in the Early Church (pre 325AD) infants were NOT baptized for salvation purposes...but for blessings and communal beliefs. To make them a part of the Christian community.

I don't really agree with it, but Christianity was so strong at that time that a child grown in a Christian family was most probably going to be Christian. Or they rejected their baptism as adults.

Which is OK I guess, since baptism does not save by itself anyway.
And they believed it was truly efficacious regarding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
In a way it shows true faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it is not my first forum. In fact I worked as an online Moderator years ago. Is there any reason you seem so antagonistic about this?

No. It just seems like you don't understand about going off topic a little.
No problem.
Oh. And if you don't tag someone,,, they won't know you're writing to them.
I came upon the above coincidentally or I never would have seen it.

 

[Barnaby]

You are aggressive and don't bear the Fruit of the Spirit, wondering.

I shall ignore you in future. I shall pray for your anger issues though.

God Bless and Goodbye.

 

[jerry63935]

You are aggressive and don't bear the Fruit of the Spirit, wondering.

were all aggressive as well as your aggressive going off topic is called chasing rabbits . this forum is mild compared to the other one i belong to lol

 

[Avigdor]

Right.
I did say that Calvinists believe that God is a monster.
Pretty strong...right. God is NOT a monster and calvinism changes God' s character. No denomination has the right to change God's character.

I hope you realize that there was no such doctrine as the reformed taught for 1,500 years till the "calvinists" came along: Luther, Knox, Zilwig, etc.

Simply put, any god that would send his very own creation (and most of it according to the N.T.) to hell, based on NOTHING, except His will and desire
AND
that He does this to show us his GLORY!
would be a monster indeed.

Can't get around that Avigdor.

W
Calvinists do not believe that God is a monster. I can tell you with full authority that I/we do not. I realize that you cannot change your own interpretation of what our views are, or what horrendous things you would attribute to God looking through the lens you look through. What we believe and why is truthfully unknown to you, obviously, since you continue to make such horrible accusations, telling us what we believe, when it is nothing more than your opinion. The way you see it. It is extremely inflamatory, (your intent?) and maybe you should stop it?
No one goes to hell for no reason dear. It is what God's justice requires. It is what we all deserve. Some get justice, some mercy. Since God is God, he is perfectly justified in how and why and if He shows mercy. If you think that makes God a monster, you are shaking your fist at Him, and utterly forgetting the God of the O.T.
The fact that you (inaccurately) say none of this teaching existed until Calvin came along is meaningless. In fact it was taught by Jesus and the Apostles, had been grossly abandoned, thus the Reformation.
God has the power to set up a plan to save all people but allows most to go to hell, even though He sacrificed His Son. Even from your point of view, wouldn't that be a monster?

This comentary on my comments is so long, or it would be way to involved (not to mention useless and unnecessary) to try to clarify myself, but I am positive that I understand correctly what Calvinisim teaches and you obviously do not. Nothing wrong with that, just stating a fact.

I DID explain WHY your comments were conflictual so I won't linger on the above comment by you.

If you're not clear,,,how does a conversation take place?
And why would ANY explanation of Christianity be toooo involved?
If something cannot be explained in 25 words or less, there's some problem present.

Since I explained myself properly,,,and I explained what calvinism teaches,,,you cannot then tell me that I do NOT understand it.

If you think I don't understand it and you claim to be a Calvinist,,,you should correct me.
That's what I would do with anyone not understanding basic Christianity.

But, unlike God,,,I cannot force you.




We won't be changing each other's minds.
And thanks for explaining...ignore the above comments.
I post as I go.
Let's see what I've misunderstood about the reformed doctrine.


Huh?
Libertarian free will means we have NO EXTERNAL pressures but make our decision based on our own desires....especially moral free will.

You may be describing free will which is accepted philosophically above...but I'm not interested in that....this is theology.

I agree that Adam's sin has affected all of humanity. I agree that we are born sinners as both Jesus and Paul explain. Our sinful nature TENDS toward evil....but even unsaved persons can do good deeds. We are not so depraved as to be unable to see God around us.
God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time. Romans 1:19-20
It is up to us to serve either God or satan.
Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
We present OURSELVES to the one we wish to serve.


Regeneration before faith.
This is not taught in scripture.

The ordo salutis is:

1. belief
2. regeneration

We are JUSTIFIED by FAITH then we have peace with God.
1. FAITH
2. JUSTIFICATION
3. PEACE
Romans 5:1
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,



I've stated many times that Calvinism teaches that we are chosen UNCONDITIONALLY.
No need to explain UNCONDITIONAL....we all know what it means.
It means GOD CHOOSES US BASED ON NOTHING,,,except HIS desire and will and sends the rest to hell with no opportunity for salvation.

The N.T. teaches that God saves CONDITIONALLY.
And, unlike what you state above about not being able to actually KNOW how God chooses,,,the God of the bible WANTS man to know how to be saved and has thus given us both the written word and the Living Word (Jesus) so that we may know.

God want ALL MEN to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

WHY does God want ALL MEN to be saved?
Because He is a loving God.
1 John 4:8b
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

And so, an all-good God that is Love itself, let's man know His CONDITION for salvation:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Yes, the above verse is AN INSTRUCTION....
NOT A statement, as you believe.


NO. I would call that drawing...
as in John 6:44 and John 12:32.

Please don't get your analogies mixed up with what you posted before that...
they do not agree.

Have you ever purchased 3 puppies
and you treated one really well and fed it and loved it and gave it a warm place to sleep....
And instead you mistreated the other two, made them go h ungry, did not love them, and made them sleep outside in the cold? And FOR NOT REASON,,,poor little things.

THIS is the god YOU serve.
[/QUOTE]
I will respond to this more fully later. I'm running out of the time it will take to do it properly but one quick note: I may say things in a way hard to understand, but internal and external pressures are the same as "according to our desires". Our desires at the root of our choices, but external things may influence those desires.

 

[jerry63935]

Romans 5:1
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

the very moment we get saved by grace through faith we re justified and have peace through God. he allows us to say yes or no to him. i have rad the doctrine of irresistible Grace .its not Bible for years i rejected God knowing i should get saved . it took a trip to fed court 2 years probation thousand dollar fine . plus hatting the evang that was preaching / God spoke to me through the Holy spirit now or never i took the now . i am more than aware of calvinism teaching on salvation.

 

[Avigdor]

the very moment we get saved by grace through faith we re justified and have peace through God. he allows us to say yes or no to him. i have rad the doctrine of irresistible Grace .its not Bible for years i rejected God knowing i should get saved . it took a trip to fed court 2 years probation thousand dollar fine . plus hatting the evang that was preaching / God spoke to me through the Holy spirit now or never i took the now . i am more than aware of calvinism teaching on salvation.

It may happen like that, obviously it did and I am incredibly thankful that it did. And it , I think, is not really relevant how we view the process. Whether we think it was because we made the choice or God gifted our belief to us. Which way we view it no doubt changes how we understand other things down the line. But as long as it doesn't alter who Jesus is, those things critical to salvation, no big deal probably. (I use the terms "I think" and "probably" because since I'm not God I can't know for sure, I can only know how it looks to me.)
I could tell you how this conversion came about for me but it's a long story and the only point important to this discussion is that for 20 some years I believed I made the choice. After all, I remember making it. As I said in another post, we do make a choice. God created mankind to function by making choices, 24/7, if we stop to realize that. So naturally there will be a time when we choose to say yes to Him and follow Jesus. The question is, "Why did that happen?" From my point of view it is because God, as it says in Ephesians, gave me the ability and willingness to believe in and trust Him. He gave me the gift of faith.
But like I said, believing this is not necessary for salvation. Believing Jesus is.
Bless you and fight the good fight.

 

[jerry63935]

It may happen like that,

there aint no may about it !!!!

for 20 some years I believed I made the choice

no God allowed you to chose the choice is saying yes to the free gift. even though judas was condemned which was foretold a betrayal would take place never the less satan entered his heart . he opened the door he allowed him to come in.

 

[Avigdor]

Right.
I did say that Calvinists believe that God is a monster.
Pretty strong...right. God is NOT a monster and calvinism changes God' s character. No denomination has the right to change God's character.

I hope you realize that there was no such doctrine as the reformed taught for 1,500 years till the "calvinists" came along: Luther, Knox, Zilwig, etc.

Simply put, any god that would send his very own creation (and most of it according to the N.T.) to hell, based on NOTHING, except His will and desire
AND
that He does this to show us his GLORY!
would be a monster indeed.

Can't get around that Avigdor.

I can tell you with full authority that I, and Calvinists, do not believe that God is a monster. It is your interpretation of what we believe. It is the way you would see God if what you think you know about our beliefs were true. What you state about Calvinists is not true, it is nothing more than your opinion. Not an opinion of whether we are right or wrong, but an opinion of what our beliefs are. And you are wrong about them. You determine what you consider facts by looking only through one lens, your opinion. You use inflamatory (with intent?) language to describe these beliefs of brothers and sisters, and maybe tone it down a bit?
God has the power to save everyone btw, He could have laid out a plan that would do that, (wouldn't that be perfect fairness in your judgement?). But instead He set it up so most people would go to hell, even though He sacrificed His son on the cross. And He knew this, who would be saved and who wouldn't even according to what you say you believe. Is that fair? Is a god who has the power to save everyone but will only save a few, the ones who decide to be saved, good and loving? Is it fair that stupid, hard hearted, fallen humans were left to decide how successful Jesus's sacrifice would be?
Have you utterly forgotten the God who reveals Himself in the O.T? Who btw, hardened Pharoh's heart to the point of death and hell to show His GLORY. Those aren't my words, they are God's.
In spite of our differences, I am enjoying our exchanges, even though it seems like I must be speaking a language you can't understand lol and I'm sure you feel the same.