Bible Study Silence in Heaven?

[LeviR]

I agree with Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer and Togarmah, but look where they are located even today



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I believe Gog of Eze 38 is the Assyrian of Isaiah and King of the north.

 

[RandyK]

I believe Gog of Eze 38 is the Assyrian of Isaiah and King of the north.

I believe the King of the North was fulfilled in history as the Syrian King. But I do believe the Gog prophecy is a future prophecy, perhaps Russia? Don't know for sure...

 

[LeviR]

I believe the King of the North was fulfilled in history as the Syrian King. But I do believe the Gog prophecy is a future prophecy, perhaps Russia? Don't know for sure...

Dan 11:40 - And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

King of the south = king of Egypt
Push at him, come against him = king of Israel
King of the north = Gog, Assyrian, Beast

 

[RandyK]

Dan 11:40 - And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

King of the south = king of Egypt
Push at him, come against him = king of Israel
King of the north = Gog, Assyrian, Beast

Dan 11.40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.

I'm fully aware that there are differences of opinion on this. Some view this as Antichrist, and some view this as Antiochus 4. I was just sharing my own particular view.

In my view the larger context involves a conflict between two entities that had emerged from Alexander's previous Empire, Syria and Egypt. We know the history, that Antiochus 4 took control of Egypt overwhelmingly, and left a relative as King of Egypt. But that King conspired with a co-ruler to pursue a course independent of Syria. That brought Antiochus back in conflict with Egypt, which was stopped by the intervention of Rome.

Antiochus was angry and heard that Israel also was challenging his chosen leadership there. So he invaded the Holy Land, and visited his wrath upon them, an "abomination of desolation."

He then travelled to the East, to Persia, to fight them. When he heard of the Maccabbean revolt, he turned back to Israel once again, but never made it there. His general manned the military palace outside of Jerusalem, but as we know from history that the Maccabbeans prevailed.

 

[CherubRam]

Today, on another foru, someone asked the question:
"I have wondered about that when the seventh seal is opened and there’s silence in Heaven for half an hour, what could that possibly mean? What would be the reason for that? Is there any possible theory what that might be?"

I answered (only for your consideration):
"Oh, I'd love to hear the answers to this one? I've wondered this all my life! God has answered many of my questions. I'm not sure He's given me much on this one?

Off the top of my head I might say that the half hour is simply a pause. It means something momentous is about to happen.

The main problems I see with people interpreting Revelation is that they think the sequence of events listed is a literal schedule of events, like an exact choreography of events to happen in future history in exact order. I don't find that to be the case at all.

In my view, we must read it like quick sketches using known symbols to represent various facets of Christ's 2nd Coming. Instead of seeing succeeding visions as a chronology of events we should see them as a multiplicity of separate visions, each of which has its own chronological sequence and picture of events surrounding Christ's Coming.

The half hour in heaven is not a literal half hour perhaps? It may just be the vision's way of saying the curtains came down while the props are being shifted for the next scene, none of which have to express a particular order of events in the play.

Each scene may show something different, and several of the scenes may be talking about the same historical time period. There may be flashbacks or prolepsis (future events viewed as if they are happening now).

So in view of this, I see the half hour in heaven as being like the curtains coming down for a brief interlude--an intermission. It is not a real event, but only a prop indicating something about the event, namely an emphasis on the importance heaven holds for the upcoming events.

It is valuable as a prop, but not symbolizing an actual historical reality. It is God's way of saying, the coming of Christ is near and of critical importance to earth!

So we need to be flexible when reading the book of Revelation. The visions are designed to instruct us in watchfulness, alertneses, and attentiveness to moral/spiritual issues that concern the Church in the NT era, particularly as we approach final issues in our lives. Just as our individual lives have critical junctures that determine our eternal future so the earth will have critical junctures in which its history will be settled for all time.

Normally, I try to link passages like this to other precedents in other places in the Bible. I'm not sure where to look for this one?

The half hour is of a parabolic nature based upon the "day year prophecy.

About 21 years.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, if you understand me, there is a difference between the chronology and description of the visions as John saw them and how the history these visions represent will be ordered. The Revelation is, to me, a sort of dramatic representation, or "symbolic play," representing things ordered differently than the order in which John saw them.

If we are given a chronology of the "play," then it is just describing the symbols and the order they are given to John, and not the order of the history they actually represent. Do you see the difference?

John is told he sees one seal, trumpet, bowl, or woe after another, but this is just the order he is given to see the vision. I see no need to translate this into a chronological order between distinct events?

If an actual historical order is implied anywhere, then we can make that assumption. But without specific instructions, we cannot. They constitute a symbolic vision with less specificity than perhaps we would like?

We are given lists and scenes, but these are symbolic, at times, of the exact same historical period, and cannot represent a chronological order. So the order in which John is given these "scenes" is not significant with respect to establishing a necessary order of events in the history they represent.

Describing the order in which John was given to see them, then, was not for the purpose of establishing a chronological sequence or timing order. Establishing an exact chronology, at times, is beyond what God intends to do in prophecy.

It is not to give people advance warning to avoid judgment, but rather, to speak to people of faith. "It is not for you to know times and seasons....", Jesus said.

There certainly is a certain amount of "chronological ordering" provided for in the Revelation. That is explicitly specified. We do know the Antichrist will reign for 3.5 years. But do we know precisely when this period will start?

We know it will end when the 2 Witnesses are killed. But how long after the 3.5 years, when Antichrist's unchallenged power is diminished, until armies are mobilized to Armageddon? We don't know!

So ordered events in the Revelation are not necessarily to give advance warning as to the particular order of events to watch out for. Rather, we have listings of things, and we have numerous overlapping visions that all speak of the need to prepare for the coming Kingdom of Christ.

Much more than that and we're becoming prognosticators, like horoscope readers or people who consult palm-readers and crystal ball gazers. We are not being given the "enemy's plans," as if we are generals strategizing a particular military campaign! But we are being given the outcome and the keys to victory. Just my opinion....

But, here is the thing as these are not historic events, but yet future events as they were given to John as visions of things yet to come before the return of Christ. No one will know God's timing as when all of this will evolve, just like no one will know the day or the hour of Christ return. Much of Revelation is literal as it is symbolic, but by the chronology of those events that John was given one after the other, I can only see it as being God's timing within all that will happen before Christ returns. We can not have the son of perdition before the seventh seal being opened followed with the seven trumpets sounding as the seventh brings with it the 3 1/2 year reign of this last antichrist who will cause all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death. We can't have the seven bowl judgements until everyone that will has taken the mark of the beast sealing their own damnation.

In my own minds eye I see all these events starting with the opening of the seven seals leading into the seven trumpets coming quickly together before the return of Christ. When will this happen and how long between each one, none of us will know the timing, but to be prepared as being Christ's own before He returns on the last day as He sends His angels out to gather all who are His own from the grave to those who are still alive at His coming.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe Gog of Eze 38 is the Assyrian of Isaiah and King of the north.

I can agree with that as described in Ezekiel 38:1-23.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe the King of the North was fulfilled in history as the Syrian King. But I do believe the Gog prophecy is a future prophecy, perhaps Russia? Don't know for sure...

I think we will see much of history repeating itself in the end of days.

 

[LeviR]

I can agree with that as described in Ezekiel 38:1-23.

Christ’s coming will be sudden and unexpected to the wicked. When the false prophets of Israel and Judah say Peace and Safety, then sudden destruction will come upon them.
Christ’s appearance in the clouds of heaven will be over Jerusalem.
This is signaled after 3.5 years of the tribulation of the righteous .
The sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light, and the stars falling from heaven are symbolic of the false prophets, kings, priests and princes of the rebellious houses of Israel and Judah.
“yet once more I shake not only the earth but also the heaven” signifies the removal of the things that can be shaken, and the things that can not be shaken remain.
This is the judgments to come. And the removal of this old heaven and earth makes way for the new heaven and earth to come.

 

[RandyK]

I think we will see much of history repeating itself in the end of days.

True, I've noted in biblical prophecy a regular repeat of prophecies, even prophecies applying to the same countries. It seems that DNA replicates in countries, and they fall into the same cycles.

And God's judgment remains the same in each generation. We can bank on the fact that all of the judgments mentioned in the Bible are still applicable today in our own time, and to every country! And we can learn from each of the examples mentioned in the scriptures.

1 Cor 10.1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ,[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

 

[RandyK]

But, here is the thing as these are not historic events, but yet future events as they were given to John as visions of things yet to come before the return of Christ. No one will know God's timing as when all of this will evolve, just like no one will know the day or the hour of Christ return. Much of Revelation is literal as it is symbolic, but by the chronology of those events that John was given one after the other, I can only see it as being God's timing within all that will happen before Christ returns. We can not have the son of perdition before the seventh seal being opened followed with the seven trumpets sounding as the seventh brings with it the 3 1/2 year reign of this last antichrist who will cause all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death. We can't have the seven bowl judgements until everyone that will has taken the mark of the beast sealing their own damnation.

Yes, some things, such as the narrative itself, must be progressive, or things will get confusing. There is *John's own time,* which imposes upon the narrative the sequence of time in which he receives these visions.

And there is also a number of elements in that narrative that requires the overall story to progress, though there are prolepses and flashbacks that take place out of the overall timing of the general picture. So there must be a certain amount of progress in the history being talked about, or the reader would be utterly confused.

That being said, I find it difficult to know what belongs to the narrative and what belongs to the actual historical progression? It's your own call?

In my own minds eye I see all these events starting with the opening of the seven seals leading into the seven trumpets coming quickly together before the return of Christ. When will this happen and how long between each one, none of us will know the timing, but to be prepared as being Christ's own before He returns on the last day as He sends His angels out to gather all who are His own from the grave to those who are still alive at His coming.

Personally, I see the 7 Seals as being kind of a vision summarizing the whole sweep of NT history, accounting for the basic issues involved. God's judgment doesn't await the end of the age but takes place all through the age, since God deals with nations in history just as He did with Israel in their history.

So there are 4 horsemen bringing various judgments to the world, just as He had brought them to Israel. And this is preparatory for final judgment.

The 7th Seal itself is summarized by the 7 Trumpets, which bring to us the broad sweep of what final judgment consists of. It is a comprehensive judgment, touching all that belongs to the earth.

I think this final judgment is not given in a particular time sequence because it is just a broad overlay, which will culminate at the coming of Christ's Kingdom. In other words, these things happen, in particular, in the final generation, showing the world that they are about to lose rule on earth.

Finally, the 7 bowls reflect the actual history of the time surrounding the Battle of Armageddon. Again, there is no particular order or sequence--just a general time frame indicating the end has arrived.

The emphasis is on the broad sweep of judgment at that time, which are not likely to be "one after the other," as they were with the Egyptian plagues. In fact, I think they are ordered to look like the Egyptian plagues, though they take place on a world level. My opinion only....

 

[RandyK]

The half hour is of a parabolic nature based upon the "day year prophecy.

About 21 years.

I accept a certain amount of numerological equation. For example, I see God's anticipation of the BC/AD time measurement, indicating the Millennial Day theory may be fulfilled sometime in the near future.

Roughly 4 thousand-year days from Adam to Christ, and 2 thousand-year days from Christ to now. Finally, Christ comes to initiate the 7th thousand-year "day," the Millennium.

Beyond this, I don't know? I take all of the periods in Daniel literally, though the 70 Week prophecy I see as the equivalent of just shy of 490 years.

 

[RandyK]

Christ’s coming will be sudden and unexpected to the wicked. When the false prophets of Israel and Judah say Peace and Safety, then sudden destruction will come upon them.

Yes, just as false Christs and Prophets appeared in the time before the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, so I think there will be leaders proclaiming security in these Last Days, right before Armageddon. Even today, Russia is warning of WW3, and people go on living securely. Even as Iran warns of invading Israel, many Israelis are living as if there is no more tomorrow.

If the world where we live appears to feel secure, we need to remind them that no "tomorrow" is guaranteed. Not to create panic they should be warned that God is judging nations and individuals. We need to live right, or our society will be judged.

Christ’s appearance in the clouds of heaven will be over Jerusalem.
This is signaled after 3.5 years of the tribulation of the righteous .
The sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light, and the stars falling from heaven are symbolic of the false prophets, kings, priests and princes of the rebellious houses of Israel and Judah.

I think that's very astute of you! Yes, heavenly bodies were viewed, by Israel, as symbols of religious leaders or even secular leaders, who are appointed by heaven.

There may be actual falling stars or comets, but what will really be significant will be the fall of world leaders, one after another, including religious leaders who are exposed as frauds.

The reason Christ is coming back to Jerusalem, "just as he left," is because God has promised to restore Israel. Judgment will fall there, along with the rest of the world. But God will spare Israel, and rebuild the nation in the Millennium, I believe.

“yet once more I shake not only the earth but also the heaven” signifies the removal of the things that can be shaken, and the things that can not be shaken remain.
This is the judgments to come. And the removal of this old heaven and earth makes way for the new heaven and earth to come.

I believe the Millennial Kingdom will precede the evolution of the New Universe. That will be to complete prophecies that are not completed in the present age, including the restoration of Christian countries and the revitalization of Israel. But it depends on whether you're Amill or Premill...

 

[CherubRam]

I accept a certain amount of numerological equation. For example, I see God's anticipation of the BC/AD time measurement, indicating the Millennial Day theory may be fulfilled sometime in the near future.

Roughly 4 thousand-year days from Adam to Christ, and 2 thousand-year days from Christ to now. Finally, Christ comes to initiate the 7th thousand-year "day," the Millennium.

Beyond this, I don't know? I take all of the periods in Daniel literally, though the 70 Week prophecy I see as the equivalent of just shy of 490 years.

Basically that is correct.

 

[LeviR]

Yes, just as false Christs and Prophets appeared in the time before the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, so I think there will be leaders proclaiming security in these Last Days, right before Armageddon. Even today, Russia is warning of WW3, and people go on living securely. Even as Iran warns of invading Israel, many Israelis are living as if there is no more tomorrow.

If the world where we live appears to feel secure, we need to remind them that no "tomorrow" is guaranteed. Not to create panic they should be warned that God is judging nations and individuals. We need to live right, or our society will be judged.

I think that's very astute of you! Yes, heavenly bodies were viewed, by Israel, as symbols of religious leaders or even secular leaders, who are appointed by heaven.

There may be actual falling stars or comets, but what will really be significant will be the fall of world leaders, one after another, including religious leaders who are exposed as frauds.

The reason Christ is coming back to Jerusalem, "just as he left," is because God has promised to restore Israel. Judgment will fall there, along with the rest of the world. But God will spare Israel, and rebuild the nation in the Millennium, I believe.

I believe the Millennial Kingdom will precede the evolution of the New Universe. That will be to complete prophecies that are not completed in the present age, including the restoration of Christian countries and the revitalization of Israel. But it depends on whether you're Amill or Premill...

I believe God’s judgments to come are to be brought upon His people, the Jews, and the people of the nations.
These people are spoken of in figurative terms, such as heaven, earth, sun, moon, stars, beasts, horns, dragon, angels, living creatures, elders, winds, sea, trees, clouds, mountains, etc.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, some things, such as the narrative itself, must be progressive, or things will get confusing. There is *John's own time,* which imposes upon the narrative the sequence of time in which he receives these visions.

And there is also a number of elements in that narrative that requires the overall story to progress, though there are prolepses and flashbacks that take place out of the overall timing of the general picture. So there must be a certain amount of progress in the history being talked about, or the reader would be utterly confused.

That being said, I find it difficult to know what belongs to the narrative and what belongs to the actual historical progression? It's your own call?

Personally, I see the 7 Seals as being kind of a vision summarizing the whole sweep of NT history, accounting for the basic issues involved. God's judgment doesn't await the end of the age but takes place all through the age, since God deals with nations in history just as He did with Israel in their history.

So there are 4 horsemen bringing various judgments to the world, just as He had brought them to Israel. And this is preparatory for final judgment.

The 7th Seal itself is summarized by the 7 Trumpets, which bring to us the broad sweep of what final judgment consists of. It is a comprehensive judgment, touching all that belongs to the earth.

I think this final judgment is not given in a particular time sequence because it is just a broad overlay, which will culminate at the coming of Christ's Kingdom. In other words, these things happen, in particular, in the final generation, showing the world that they are about to lose rule on earth.

Finally, the 7 bowls reflect the actual history of the time surrounding the Battle of Armageddon. Again, there is no particular order or sequence--just a general time frame indicating the end has arrived.

The emphasis is on the broad sweep of judgment at that time, which are not likely to be "one after the other," as they were with the Egyptian plagues. In fact, I think they are ordered to look like the Egyptian plagues, though they take place on a world level. My opinion only....

Respectfully we will just have to disagree as we see this differently. The important part is for us to be prepared for the coming of the Lord so we will not be taken as a thief in the night.

I do have a question since these are future events, why do you call all these things "history"?

 

[LeviR]

Eze 6:1 - And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 6:2 - Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them,

Eze 6:3 - And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, evenI, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.

Eze 6:4 - And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols.

Eze 6:5 - And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.

Rev 16:17 - And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Rev 16:18 - And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and-so great.

Rev 16:19 - And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 16:20 - And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 16:21 - And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 6:12 - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 - And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14 - And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isa 34:4 - All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

2Pe 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Eze 22:18 - Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.

Eze 22:19 - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

Eze 22:20 - As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.

Eze 22:21 - Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.

Eze 22:22 - As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.

 

[LeviR]

Isa 4:2On that day the Branch of the LORD
will be beautiful and glorious,
and the fruit of the land
will be the pride and glory of Israel’s survivors.
3Whoever remains in Zion
and whoever is left in Jerusalem
will be called holy—
all in Jerusalem who are recorded among the living—
4when the Lord has washed away
the filth of the daughters of Zion
and cleansed the bloodstains from the heart of Jerusalem
by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

 

[RandyK]

Respectfully we will just have to disagree as we see this differently. The important part is for us to be prepared for the coming of the Lord so we will not be taken as a thief in the night.

I do have a question since these are future events, why do you call all these things "history"?

I mean to differentiate what actually happens in our real world experience as opposed to diaramas or plays or dramatic symbols that represent what will happen. "History" is what we are actually experiencing in the world. A depiction of it, using symbols, is not the actual history but merely a representation of it using symbols.

The book of Revelation is not pre-playing history, but representing it in the form of symbolic or representative prophecy. Some prophecy gives greater detail of what will happen, but history takes place when it actually happens--not when it is foretold.

 

[LeviR]

I mean to differentiate what actually happens in our real world experience as opposed to diaramas or plays or dramatic symbols that represent what will happen. "History" is what we are actually experiencing in the world. A depiction of it, using symbols, is not the actual history but merely a representation of it using symbols.

The book of Revelation is not pre-playing history, but representing it in the form of symbolic or representative prophecy. Some prophecy gives greater detail of what will happen, but history takes place when it actually happens--not when it is foretold.

Rev 1:19 - Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

John was to write the things which he had already been shown up to that point, and the things that are now shown to him, and the things he will yet be shown.

All of these things are yet future, and therefore called prophecy not history.
John is not shown things that happened before his time, but things to happen.

i.e “War in heaven” has nothing to do with something that happened at any time before John.