Sin of yesterday or not...

[Lyric's Dad]

So, as long as homosexuality IS a sin ...then, other than rubbing one's nose into lashings of scriptures that are presented for no other reason than to point out to them how rotten they are, how do you professed Christians plan to help in a practical way someone who might be struggling with homosexuality? Is there a chance at all that you could put down your weapons (Bibles) for long enough to do some constructive thinking of your own?

No offense, but I can't imagine for a moment that some on this thread will ever convert ANYONE to Christianity based on the contents of their posts. Wasn't it Ghandi who once said, "I'd possibly BE a Christian if it wasn't for Christians ..."? While I AM a Christian I must confess to having an understanding of the concept underlying this statement that seems to be held by any number of nonChristians. Such condemnation by some of you toward others who may well be struggling with their homosexuality just might come back to bite you.

As I've stated previously, the condemnation from many of you toward this particular group of people DOESN'T come from the Bible. One doesn't need to be a Rhodes Scholar to figure this out. It begins in the heart of the individual. Then, and only then, is the Bible used as a means to condemn.

As one who has been able to see this issue from both sides of the coin, I must say there is a balance. People in the sin of homosexuality MUST come to the realization that the behavior is sin. They must be convicted of how God sees it and this can only happen by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Word of God. But they must also come to see that while God hates this sin, like all others, He loves the person and has victory waiting for them. They must realize that if they will turn to Him, He will meet them and guide them along to that victory.

This is how it has worked for me and I know God will do this for anyone who truly seeks Him and His righteousness for their life.

 

[SputnikBoy]

So, as long as homosexuality IS a sin ...then, other than rubbing one's nose into lashings of scriptures that are presented for no other reason than to point out to them how rotten they are, how do you professed Christians plan to help in a practical way someone who might be struggling with homosexuality? Is there a chance at all that you could put down your weapons (Bibles) for long enough to do some constructive thinking of your own?

No offense, but I can't imagine for a moment that some on this thread will ever convert ANYONE to Christianity based on the contents of their posts. Wasn't it Ghandi who once said, "I'd possibly BE a Christian if it wasn't for Christians ..."? While I AM a Christian I must confess to having an understanding of the concept underlying this statement that seems to be held by any number of nonChristians. Such condemnation by some of you toward others who may well be struggling with their homosexuality just might come back to bite you.

As I've stated previously, the condemnation from many of you toward this particular group of people DOESN'T come from the Bible. One doesn't need to be a Rhodes Scholar to figure this out. It begins in the heart of the individual. Then, and only then, is the Bible used as a means to condemn.

As one who has been able to see this issue from both sides of the coin, I must say there is a balance. People in the sin of homosexuality MUST come to the realization that the behavior is sin. They must be convicted of how God sees it and this can only happen by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Word of God. But they must also come to see that while God hates this sin, like all others, He loves the person and has victory waiting for them. They must realize that if they will turn to Him, He will meet them and guide them along to that victory.

This is how it has worked for me and I know God will do this for anyone who truly seeks Him and His righteousness for their life.

Sputnik: Thanks for your comments, LD. But ...each individual has their own strengths and weaknesses and what might have worked for you, for others it’s more of a battle. I realize that you're not saying that 'changing one's sexual orientation' is a simple matter since you admitted to having struggled yourself. You do, however, state that homosexuality is not a congenital issue but a choice. For me, someone who attempts to apply logic and scientific data in addition to scripture, the jury is still out on that one. I really don't believe that you or anyone can generalize in regard to a very complex human issue.

At least YOU, LD, haven’t yet made reference to another human being as a ‘degenerate pervert’ for simply having a sexual orientation that may be (right now anyway) beyond their control to change. That kind of dialogue is about the most unchristian I would ever expect from a professed Christian. In fact, given your recent admission on this thread, LD, I feel that you, of all people, should be as appalled as I am that this particular poster continues to use such language. And, while I can ALREADY feel the potential attack from the Bible-bashers on this thread, I believe this topic of homosexuality would have to be one of the most overblown issues in Christendom today. Other perceived sins of more or equal weight are all but ignored by the majority of Christians.

 

[peace4all]

This is how it has worked for me and I know God will do this for anyone who truly seeks Him and His righteousness for their life.

what if someoen of a diffrent faith wishes to be a homosexual? if they do not want to find your god?

Remember, We live in america, so if someone wants to be a hindu-homosexual, there isnt much you can really do to stop it. Or should legally be allowed to do :-/

 

[Blazin Bones]

It makes no sense to you because you are denying the fact that God made us like him. You will never understnad God until your recoginze his sovereignty. The rule was not broken, but paid for by someone else. Again, you try and tell God what he can't and can do.

It seems that if Jesus could die for the adultrous woman, he could have died for all the adultrous women that were killed in God's name. So none of them had to die since Jesus would eventually die for them.

I am not saying that God couldn't do it, it is just inconsistent and breaking His own rules for Him to do so.

This is not true. Christ had not come, so the forgiveness he displayed had never been availible. only a sinless person could take the penalty of another.

[quote:59d29] 1. When did I agree with you. I said change your scripture or change your arguement.

2. Can you give the passage that mentions Jeans or not?I tell you the same thing I tell every rule making "Christian". Prove It with scripture, or concede your point.

You do not know the Holy spirit, therefore you would only interpret scripture in a manner pleasing to yourself. I'm not making scripture say anything more than it does, unlike the pentacostals who make rules about jeans which were never mentioned in the Bible.

1. If you don't agree with me, then which part don't you agree with? Was it that Jezebel was not a fornicator or that Jezebel did not put on makeup? If you agree there, then do you agree that in the Bible, a seducer (whore or fornicator) wears makeup? Should people emulate fornicators in how they present themself? This last one you may disagree with (as I do). However, they feel the Holy Spirit led them to this belief.

2. Here is the problem. You believe the Protestant version of the Bible, but not the Catholic. Can you prove that with scripture? No, because it would be circular argument (My Bible is true because my Bible says it is true.) So you say it requires faith to understand what God wants. Yet when others use this logic, you disagree.[/quote:59d29]

1.Change your scripture reference or change your arguement. The arguement you're presenting doesn't align with the scripture you provided.

2. Leave that arguement for the thread Soma made. You've already pulled enough side tracks into this discussion. Read what I've said in that thread to get my response.

[quote:59d29]1. Jesus taught that no one should judge another and that Judgemnet belongs to God alone. There is no point for anyone to judge anyone. However, a sinner has no problem sinning, so they can go ahead and judge whoever they like. It will only hurt them.

2. Thank you for acknowledgeing the fact that the passages differ. I never said my Idea was definitive, but it is logical. As I said before, you can choose to force a contradiction there, but you're only adding to your distane for the God who will judge the Righteous and unrighteouss. The Question is, when will you choose to live the life of the righteouss.

1. That makes no sense to me. You say a sinner can judge, but then you say that noone can judge but God. Are you talking about two different things?

2. I see way too many problems in the Bible beyond this. I would be lieing to myself to even pretend to believe any of this reflects reality.[/quote:59d29]

1. No both are able to judge. However, one(God) is able to judge justly, sinners are not, but continue to try.

2. Quath, Just admit that in this case, the evidence is correct. The Journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step my friend.

[quote:59d29]Where did I say anything near, "God did not Teach Christian values in the OT." Nowhere is that even implied. Your need to make God fake creates the contradiction. If you can stop placing yourself above God, you might have a hope of correctly reading what I wrote.

You said it when you said that a Christian has no right in killing another. Yet God said His followers did have the right to kill others. So which is it?[/quote:59d29]

Quath, tell me again when God said that to Christians?Different covenant, different standard.

[quote:59d29]Leviticus 20:10, right? Show me there where it says that no one may take their Penalty?

Show me where Christ told them to ignore the rule in John 8:7.

Problem one: Your creating the problem because at no point did Christ say they were to ignore the law. Prove your point with the passage.

Problem two: Prove where it was Ignored. He took the Penalty. Thus setting the new standard.

Quath, until you stop telling God what he could and could not do, you have no hope to strengthen your arguement.

Leviticus 20:10 says for people to kill adulters. Show me where it says that someone may die in their place and take the penality.

The law from Moses was clear that she should die by stoning. If everyone ignores the command of God, then they have sinned. Even if all the people left, it was Jesus duty as a sinless person to follow the rule of God and kill her.

What you propose is a loophole that lets people ignore all of Gods rules by people just not following them.

I am not telling God anything (because it He does not exist as far as I am concerned). I am talking with you about some logical inconsistencies I see.[/quote:59d29]

Neither of us can call the point, because the verse doesn't grant the situation. Therefore, the possibility for someone to take the punishment is not allowed or disallowed.

Quath, there is no loophole, because no other man was sinless like Christ. In order for someone else to have died in her place, they would need to be sinless, and then willingly accept her punishment. That is the only "loophole" if there is one. Christ was able to provide this special atonement. and God honored it because it was a sinless, selfless act.

No person who does not acknowledge their own sin, will ever have a chance of understanding what it is to be forgiven.

*Quath, tie this back into the original topic or drop the points. I've given you answers. If you want to keep going on some of the points, make a new thread.*

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Sputnik: Thanks for your comments, LD. But ...each individual has their own strengths and weaknesses and what might have worked for you, for others it’s more of a battle. I realize that you're not saying that 'changing one's sexual orientation' is a simple matter since you admitted to having struggled yourself. You do, however, state that homosexuality is not a congenital issue but a choice. For me, someone who attempts to apply logic and scientific data in addition to scripture, the jury is still out on that one. I really don't believe that you or anyone can generalize in regard to a very complex human issue.

At least YOU, LD, haven’t yet made reference to another human being as a ‘degenerate pervert’ for simply having a sexual orientation that may be (right now anyway) beyond their control to change. That kind of dialogue is about the most unchristian I would ever expect from a professed Christian. In fact, given your recent admission on this thread, LD, I feel that you, of all people, should be as appalled as I am that this particular poster continues to use such language. And, while I can ALREADY feel the potential attack from the Bible-bashers on this thread, I believe this topic of homosexuality would have to be one of the most overblown issues in Christendom today. Other perceived sins of more or equal weight are all but ignored by the majority of Christians.

I agree with you on some points. I really do believe that we as people are not capable of controlling homosexuality or ejecting it from our lives or, should we say, changing. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. I know that I tried for many years to change myself and it only lead to heartache. I eventually "came out" and lived a lifestyle that I knew in the pit of my heart was wrong. Eventually, I decided to turn my back on it again and just have this secret. Well, God has called me away from that too. He is seriously giving me a victory that I could NEVER have achieved without Him. I feel we need to let people know that there is a better way and that they don't have to go it alone. They have the most wonderful Helper to take them through it. Heck, if He can create this earth, He sure can change me.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

This is how it has worked for me and I know God will do this for anyone who truly seeks Him and His righteousness for their life.

what if someoen of a diffrent faith wishes to be a homosexual? if they do not want to find your god?

Remember, We live in america, so if someone wants to be a hindu-homosexual, there isnt much you can really do to stop it. Or should legally be allowed to do :-/

I agree with you. I am not here trying to tell anyone they have to change. I am just letting those who may wish to or have been convicted in their hearts that it is wrong that there is a way. There is a God who will take you to victory over this or any other sin if you truly seek Him. Nobody has to do this. I just wish they would.

 

[peace4all]

thats cool lyirc

Then, can we allow homosexual marriage? not "christian marriage" but "civil unions" ?

I can understand 100% if christians want to keep the word marriage a christian thing. That is like, someoen trying to take the word "Bible" and make it into an atheist thing...

But allow the same legal rights,w hen it comes to gov't

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sputnik: Thanks for your comments, LD. But ...each individual has their own strengths and weaknesses and what might have worked for you, for others it’s more of a battle. I realize that you're not saying that 'changing one's sexual orientation' is a simple matter since you admitted to having struggled yourself. You do, however, state that homosexuality is not a congenital issue but a choice. For me, someone who attempts to apply logic and scientific data in addition to scripture, the jury is still out on that one. I really don't believe that you or anyone can generalize in regard to a very complex human issue.

At least YOU, LD, haven’t yet made reference to another human being as a ‘degenerate pervert’ for simply having a sexual orientation that may be (right now anyway) beyond their control to change. That kind of dialogue is about the most unchristian I would ever expect from a professed Christian. In fact, given your recent admission on this thread, LD, I feel that you, of all people, should be as appalled as I am that this particular poster continues to use such language. And, while I can ALREADY feel the potential attack from the Bible-bashers on this thread, I believe this topic of homosexuality would have to be one of the most overblown issues in Christendom today. Other perceived sins of more or equal weight are all but ignored by the majority of Christians.

I agree with you on some points. I really do believe that we as people are not capable of controlling homosexuality or ejecting it from our lives or, should we say, changing. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. I know that I tried for many years to change myself and it only lead to heartache. I eventually "came out" and lived a lifestyle that I knew in the pit of my heart was wrong. Eventually, I decided to turn my back on it again and just have this secret. Well, God has called me away from that too. He is seriously giving me a victory that I could NEVER have achieved without Him. I feel we need to let people know that there is a better way and that they don't have to go it alone. They have the most wonderful Helper to take them through it. Heck, if He can create this earth, He sure can change me.

Sputnik: Yes, you're so right, LD. Thanks for your post!

 

[Homeskillet]

I just want to say "thank you" to LD for being so honest in this thread. I, too have "seen the other side of the coin" as he put it so I know how hard it is to confess this in an atmosphere such as this. Reading your posts, LD has given me a whole new perspective on it...I have always been "embarassed" to tell others about my past. I was always scared about how they might treat me differently once they knew I used to date women. Now, thanks to you, I understand the importance of being open about it. Testimonies, by definition, are meant to be shared, not kept inside.

Shame on me for being ashamed of something that God already has victory of!!! Thank you for allowing me to see that, LD.

 

[antitox]

Most of us have a past that we are ashamed of. I know I'm ashamed of alot of things I've done. But the issue of homosexuality is always polarized and divisive because it is a political and legal issue versus a moral issue in modern society. The problem here is that one wages his fight against the moral side of it in favor of the political one that opens the door to greater prominence of it. Most of this is an argument over the acceptance or rejection of it legally and some basing its grounds on some kind of "civil right" for legalized moral corruption in society.

Hence, the claim is that we opponents to it somehow have something against the homosexual populace and that we are not understanding of the problems that some struggle with. That's quite to the contrary and is a lie intended to discredit any challenge to it.
The reason we have what we have on this board is the political polarization induced by those who wish to justify the lifestyle at the expense of the health and welfare of our society.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

thats cool lyirc

Then, can we allow homosexual marriage? not "christian marriage" but "civil unions" ?

I can understand 100% if christians want to keep the word marriage a christian thing. That is like, someoen trying to take the word "Bible" and make it into an atheist thing...

But allow the same legal rights,w hen it comes to gov't

I fully believe that it will become a reality very soon but I am hard pressed to find a reason why I should support it or give my vote legalizing it. I know it to be a sinful lifestyle that God abhors. I know that those who practice it will not find themselves with God. Voting to legalize such a thing would be like my voting to legalize adultery, blasphemy, theft, and murder. No way. I do not want to ever be on opposing sides of God. I know that His ways, even if I don't always understand them like has been the case when I have stepped out in faith to do something He wants for me but dont understand, are always better. People can do as they wish but I as a Christian will always take the stand as such and go against those things that I know are contrary to God.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I just want to say "thank you" to LD for being so honest in this thread. I, too have "seen the other side of the coin" as he put it so I know how hard it is to confess this in an atmosphere such as this. Reading your posts, LD has given me a whole new perspective on it...I have always been "embarassed" to tell others about my past. I was always scared about how they might treat me differently once they knew I used to date women. Now, thanks to you, I understand the importance of being open about it. Testimonies, by definition, are meant to be shared, not kept inside.

Shame on me for being ashamed of something that God already has victory of!!! Thank you for allowing me to see that, LD.

All praise goes to the Father. It is only very recently that God has been able to break through my hardened heart and make me realize that sin that hides in darkness grows stronger. It is only as I become honest about who I am and what my struggles are and have been that they lose their power. The light has a way of purging the power from darkness. I have known for a lot longer what God wanted me to do but have had to be broken over and over to finally get me to agree to it. I am a stubborn man but for some odd reason, God is a lot stronger then I am.

I know that though I feel shame for my past, God has plans for it. I give it fully to Him and trust that even though I don't necessarrily agree with the path, He is at the helm and it will be for the best.

God bless.

 

[Vic C.]

I know that though I feel shame for my past, God has plans for it. I give it fully to Him and trust that even though I don't necessarrily agree with the path, He is at the helm and it will be for the best.

We did a study on Joshua today. It was on trusting God's path for each of us. We must allow Him to guide us through unchartered waters. He know the way even though we don't.

Josh 3:13 And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the LORD, the Lord of all the earth, shall rest in the waters of Jordan, that the waters of Jordan shall be cut off from the waters that come down from above; and they shall stand upon an heap.

They had to have trusted God to do this. Now I fully understand what it means to "get your feet wet". LOL :

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I know that though I feel shame for my past, God has plans for it. I give it fully to Him and trust that even though I don't necessarrily agree with the path, He is at the helm and it will be for the best.

We did a study on Joshua today. It was on trusting God's path for each of us. We must allow Him to guide us through unchartered waters. He know the way even though we don't.

Josh 3:13 And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the LORD, the Lord of all the earth, shall rest in the waters of Jordan, that the waters of Jordan shall be cut off from the waters that come down from above; and they shall stand upon an heap.

They had to have trusted God to do this. Now I fully understand what it means to "get your feet wet". LOL :

Vic, thank you for that. Encouraging to say the least.

That is a way of looking at it that I have not done before. It is so wonderful that the Word of the Lord is living.

I have heard a study that said that the time of year they were going to cross over would have had the river at flood stage which would be impossible to cross over. Those people really had to have a faith to even go to the edge and not say "this is nuts, I am going home." Instead they listened to God when it would make more sense not to and God proved their faith good.

Like when Abraham took his son to the mountain to sacrifice him even though God had said he would have a seed from him. It made no sense at all but Abraham trusted and had faith and God proved him also.

We are called to have faith to just take the step, not knowing why or how, and God will show us approved. It is rough to do it though.

 

[Vic C.]

...I have heard a study that said that the time of year they were going to cross over would have had the river at flood stage which would be impossible to cross over. Those people really had to have a faith to even go to the edge and not say "this is nuts, I am going home." Instead they listened to God when it would make more sense not to and God proved their faith good.

Josh 3:15 And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)

It is estimated that the River can get to about 1 mile wide at this time. :o 2,000,000 people; one rather wide river. No time to build a bridge and too many people to even THINK of rafting them across. They could have set up camp right there and had a nice waterfron view of the Promised Land, but... their plece WAS on the other side.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Most of us have a past that we are ashamed of. I know I'm ashamed of alot of things I've done.

Sputnik: Me too. And this is why I really can't afford to point the finger at others.

But the issue of homosexuality is always polarized and divisive because it is a political and legal issue versus a moral issue in modern society. The problem here is that one wages his fight against the moral side of it in favor of the political one that opens the door to greater prominence of it. Most of this is an argument over the acceptance or rejection of it legally and some basing its grounds on some kind of "civil right" for legalized moral corruption in society.

Sputnik: There is much corruption in society without the need to specifically single out and target homosexuality. Adultery within society (and within the Christian church), for instance, is rife. Possibly most of us could tell a story or two pertaining to adultery, whether it concerns us or someone that we know. Come to think of it, I don't ever recall seeing a thread on a Christian forum that deals so zealously with adultery. But then, adultery is not NEARLY as popular a topic for Christians to level their hostility at as is homosexuality.

Not every homosexual is jumping up and down for social recognition and special treatment. Having said that, I don't even know if those that ARE wanting to come out of the closet and be recognized have the intention of grandstanding either. Maybe they're sick and tired of hiding 'who they are' and have chosen honesty as being the best virtue. Whatever their reasons, they do have the right not to be spurned or physically beaten up in public because of their sexuality - or to be 'doctrinely' beaten up by sanctimonious bullies such as those found on Christian forums.[/quote]

[quote="antitox]"Hence, the claim is that we opponents to it somehow have something against the homosexual populace and that we are not understanding of the problems that some struggle with. That's quite to the contrary and is a lie intended to discredit any challenge to it.
The reason we have what we have on this board is the political polarization induced by those who wish to justify the lifestyle at the expense of the health and welfare of our society.[/color][/quote][/color]

Sputnik: Sorry, antitox, but I disagree with the 'we' or the 'on the contrary' in your statement as if you speak for all Christian opponents re this issue. I've found, so often, that the Christians who are so vocal on this issue have little or no desire to understand the problems that some struggle with. You might do so, antitox, and good for you if you do, but I believe that you are definitely in the minority.

And, as long as one IS challenging the issue of homosexual orientation in people, then one's study needs to extend to areas beyond an arsenal of scriptural attacks. It isn't fair or intellectual to casually pass off someone's struggle with homosexuality with a few (and there ARE remarkably few) convenient scriptures. Surely investigating the complexities of sexuality in an academic manner is not to be seen as 'promoting' homosexuality?[/quote][/size]

 

[antitox]

Sputnik: Me too. And this is why I really can't afford to point the finger at others.

This isn't "pointing the finger at others." I clearly stated what the real issue was in my post, yet you come right back and accuse of "finger pointing." Looks like its all going over your head too.:roll:

Sputnik: There is much corruption in society without the need to specifically single out and target homosexuality.

See above.

Adultery within society (and within the Christian church), for instance, is rife. Possibly most of us could tell a story or two pertaining to adultery, whether it concerns us or someone that we know. Come to think of it, I don't ever recall seeing a thread on a Christian forum that deals so zealously with adultery. But then, adultery is not NEARLY as popular a topic for Christians to level their hostility at as is homosexuality.

First of all, the subject of this thread is homosexuality, not adultery. N/A.
Secondly, homosexuality is a latter stage of moral corruption, just short of necrophilia. The bible says that it is an abomination. Doesn't say that about adultery. Have you ever wondered why? If you want to change the subject of this thread, then consult with ADMIN about it.

Not every homosexual is jumping up and down for social recognition and special treatment.

Well, they're all for it, I can assure you that.

Having said that, I don't even know if those that ARE wanting to come out of the closet and be recognized have the intention of grandstanding either. Maybe they're sick and tired of hiding 'who they are' and have chosen honesty as being the best virtue.

It's not "who they are." It isn't their identity. So you believe that people are born homosexual?

Whatever their reasons, they do have the right not to be spurned or physically beaten up in public because of their sexuality - or to be 'doctrinely' beaten up by sanctimonious bullies such as those found on Christian forums.

I don't "beat up" on homosexuals. But I DO argue with those who defend the propagation and justification of that behavior. You need to get your facts straight. You sound like one of those true blue liberals.

Sputnik: Sorry, antitox, but I disagree with the 'we' or the 'on the contrary' in your statement as if you speak for all Christian opponents re this issue. I've found, so often, that the Christians who are so vocal on this issue have little or no desire to understand the problems that some struggle with. You might do so, antitox, and good for you if you do, but I believe that you are definitely in the minority.

Think again.

And, as long as one IS challenging the issue of homosexual orientation in people, then one's study needs to extend to areas beyond an arsenal of scriptural attacks. It isn't fair or intellectual to casually pass off someone's struggle with homosexuality with a few (and there ARE remarkably few) convenient scriptures. Surely investigating the complexities of sexuality in an academic manner is not to be seen
as 'promoting' homosexuality?

[/quote]

First, this isn't an issue of "convenient" scriptures. The bible is clear in case you don't know what the word ABOMINATION means. And yes, there are other things that are called abominations also, but you're going to have to look at what God says, not political correctness.
Scriptural attacks? No. We have to keep pointing out scripture because scripture addresses the issue, yet liberal thinking continually sidesteps it.

Second, I do not pass off the struggle that gays have. And most do not "struggle" with it, they want it, they do it, and they seek acceptance of it. And you join right in and defend the lifestyle based on the social aspect that I am attacking someone. This thread is about whether it is considered a sin of yesterday or not; regarding how it is viewed today. You call it an "attack." Wanna change the thread? Again, see ADMIN.

In my prior post I clearly and effectively explained what the fight was about over this issue, and you ignored that and claim "attack" on homosexuals. No Sput, the problem is there are still "Christians" taking sides with the non-believers in defending that behavior and promoting acceptance of it, and that is absolutely shameful. It's time to get a clue.

 

[Relic]

.

Thank you antitox. I do not think you are in the minority! Actually, it is the ones who support homosexual behavior that are in the minority.

Those who take claim to being Christian, but they support the sinner and say the sinner struggles with being homosexual, so let them be what they want to be, homosexual living in sin. I ask this of those of you who support homosexuals... Is that being Christ like in helping others to come out of their sins? :o

NO MATTER WHAT TIME IT IS.... SIN IS STILL SIN!

The Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the homosexuals insisted on laying with men IN THE STREETS out in the open. The judges of those days allowed them to do things abominable.
And the judges of today will face the judgement of God also. They are not special or favored! They are giving way to sin! And sin only rouses the wrath. Sin begets wrath. That's just how God made it! Sin is of no good if you stay in it! Without repentance! The wrath of God was stirred up by those who insisted on living in sin.

Yeah Sputnik! you want to continue to let them homosexuals be living in their sin? Well then, It won't make the consequences of that sin be any different. The proof of what was in in the old days will still be there in "these days". Sin does not go without consequences. It's just that some sins don't show the ugliness of it until it is taken DEEP ROOTS, and by then it's then too late. The sin has enveloped so much of the spirit of the person that they are consumed by it and think they were born to be what they are. They have become the cancerous cell that tries to infect others with that same sin. They have become advocates of spreading the growth of the wickedness. Instead of realizing they can still come out of it by turning away from it! It's hard work but it is well worth the effort. To give the will over to the goodness of God instead of giving their will over to the wickedness of sin. So what do you want to support Sputnik? The advocating of sin or the repentance from it, to turn away from it?

Sin is still sin. Time plays no part in determining what it is. Sin is still sin.
Just like black will always be black and white will always be white, yellow will always be yellow. The wicked will always be wicked. The only thing to do to escape from that wickedness, is to cut off from it. To stop being a part of it! To turn away from it and be something else! BE CHRIST LIKE. Live in HIS SPIRIT, instead of living in the spirit of sin!

Repentance is a gift for all sinners to accept. But the hardened evil unrepentant just don't want to come out of their sins! They love their sins too much. They are deceived by the one who comes in the guise of light. They know no difference between Godliness and wickedness. They are tricked by the serpent who comes in dressed in attractiveness.

Oh what good does it do to give pearls to swine? NONE! They just trample on them. The dog always returns to his vomit! They read the bible but skip the parts that tell them about abominations!

I remember when I first decided to read the bible with intensity. I was so freaked out by the conviction it had on my soul, that I literally threw it across the room! But by the grace of God. I picked it up again and gave a vow to God that no matter what! no matter how many times I backslide! I will seek the truth He speaks about what sin is and what it is not. I vowed to seek after the Holiness of God for the rest of my life. And that meant to give up the sins that are revealed to me, and to take on the holy spirit Christ Jesus to overcome them.

That's the difference between a person who claims to be a christian and doesn't do a thing about the sins in their lives, and the person who claims to be a Christian and battles to overcome. Jesus shows us how to overcome the sins of the world. The person who insists on staying in the homosexual life style is in denial of the sin which is an abomination to HOLY God. They don't take scripture as their weapon to overcome their sins. They just read, but they don't take on the Christ Jesus, they don't use the Holy word to overcome. They think you don't have to do a thing and they just continue to make up excuses for being the sinner they want to be. They think..... they are saved because they know of the salvation of Christ Jesus. Jesus said to take up your own cross and follow Him! Taking up your own cross isn't easy! It means you crucify your sins, nail them to the cross and FOLLOW JESUS in His HOLY SPIRIT. WALK IN HOLINESS. It doesn't mean you still walk in sin! If you continue to walk in the spirit of sin then how dumbing/numbing of the spirit is that? Totally!
Give your life over to Christ Jesus as being your savior from sins. If you live in the sins of the world, how can you live IN the Spirit of Christ Jesus?

You can't serve two masters! Sin is still sin! no matter if it is past, present, or future! Sin doesn't consider time! The consequences of sin are ignored by the sinner! Give up sin! and walk with Jesus IN His Holy Spirit of No Sin. Walk the walk. and talk the talk. Sinners are not IN the Spirit of Christ! They are then backsliders if they are living in sin.

We have the grace only if we repent! Without repentance there is not grace! Time is not a factor! as to the definition of what makes sin sin.

The whole point is that we OVERCOME the sins of the World THROUGH CHRIST SPIRIT LIVING IN US. That's takes commitment and a daily renewal of our spirit! Daily! We need to refresh ourselves daily!

Remember the Lords Prayer! Jesus taught us how to renew daily!

He prayed for as it is in heaven to be on earth, daily! He didn't pray that sin be allowed to continue and that we be allowed to live in sin!
What kind of garbage is that to support the sinner!!!!!! Those of you who support homosexual behavior! Stop supporting sin! Sin is still sin! No matter how much a person struggles with it. They are choosing to live IN that sin instead of choosing to overcome it through Christ spirit living IN them! Instead they are choosing to live IN the sprit of SIN! Not the sprit of Christ Jesus! Get it straight already! Stop supporting the sin and the sinner just because they have such a struggle with it! We all struggle with the temptation to sin! It's a matter of what we do with that temptation! Do we choose the Spirit of Jesus to live IN us and through us? or do we choose the spirit of sin to live IN and through us? You either turn towards the sin or you turn away from it! It's all a matter of what spirit you give your will over to. Not that complicated! It's a cut and dry thing! you make up your mind. SELF DISCIPLINE! Choose the righteous Holy Spirit. not the spirit of sin that is an abomination to the HOLY GOD.

Sheesh! when are you guys who are so supportive of homosexual sin, os (which is still a sin today as it was in the past) gonna get the message of what it means to carry your own cross and Follow HIM? It is not easy! It is very difficult. We either give into the sin or we give it up to FOLLOW the HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST JESUS LIVING IN US. DAILY. That is not easy for the flesh! CARRY YOUR OWN CROSS! It takes Self discipline! and that is not easy. :-?

You people who think being a Christian takes no effort or self discipline DAILY! What are you thinking? :o Read the words of Jesus! Take up your cross and follow Him. Learn what the cross is all about! It's not a free ride to living IN sin!

Faith without works is dead! And to live dead to sin is not walking like you are alive in sin! You have to give something up in order to get over it! Overcome the sin. Not live in the sin. You guys! What's wrong with your thinking? You think that you can still sin without repentance, without turning away from it? :o Well, you got another thing coming to you if you think that twistedly. Sin begets sin. the only way out of it is to turn away from it! Walk away from it! To sin no more. BB and antitox and PotLuck keep telling you guys. It's Not rocket science! :-?



.

 

[Quath]

This is not true. Christ had not come, so the forgiveness he displayed had never been availible. only a sinless person could take the penalty of another.

Where does the scripture say in the Old Testament that a sinless person could take the penality for another?

1. No both are able to judge. However, one(God) is able to judge justly, sinners are not, but continue to try.

2. Quath, Just admit that in this case, the evidence is correct. The Journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step my friend.

1. Ok. I think I see what you are saying. Here is the overall problem. God told the sinners to judge one another and to kill adultrous women. Jesus said sinners should not judge the adultrous woman. Who should they trust? God or this new guy when they know Deuteronomy 13 says that God will send false prophets to test them.

It seems weird that this was suppose to be a trap. Basically, jesus fell for it because He had to ignore God's law. If he had followed God's law and killed her, then he would have bene arrested and maybe killed for murder. But then he would have died sinless.

2. If I ever see good evidence, I will take that step. At this point to me, the likelihood that God exists is about the same that Jesus or Thor exists.

Quath, tell me again when God said that to Christians?Different covenant, different standard.

So it sounds like you are agreeing with me now. God's Old Covenant was not "Christian like" because God said to do un-Christian things. Yet you believe that God does not change and that Jesus is God. Do you see the contradiction?

Neither of us can call the point, because the verse doesn't grant the situation. Therefore, the possibility for someone to take the punishment is not allowed or disallowed.

Quath, there is no loophole, because no other man was sinless like Christ. In order for someone else to have died in her place, they would need to be sinless, and then willingly accept her punishment. That is the only "loophole" if there is one. Christ was able to provide this special atonement. and God honored it because it was a sinless, selfless act.

No person who does not acknowledge their own sin, will ever have a chance of understanding what it is to be forgiven.

*Quath, tie this back into the original topic or drop the points. I've given you answers. If you want to keep going on some of the points, make a new thread.*

God was pretty clear about the rules of atoning for sin. He accepted ritual human sacrifice before, but it was with sinful people. So needing a sinless person to atone does not fit with the OT stories.

The Bible also says that a child shall not inherient the iniquity of the father because a person's sin is their own. (It contradicts this a lot, but it states it.) Therefore, noone may pay for another's sin.

Jesus could not sacrifice himself to Yaweh because he was not of the tribe of Levi (which God had given the exclusive rights to perform sacrifices). The Bible tries to circumvent this by saying that Jesus was like a king before the Levis. But when God made the rule of the Levis, that situation was no longer possible.

So these are some very obvious (to me) contradictions. Yet I am sure you will not be able to see than anymore than a Muslim can see the errors of their religion.

*I agree. I don't think this conservation is going anywhere. Maybe it is best to drop it since it has moved too far away from the original topic. *

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

Christ bore the sins of us all and paid the price for our sins.

That includes the sin of sexual perversion. Homosexual practices were a sin yesterday and a sin today. They will be a sin tomorrow

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

There is a reason that there are people who are incapable of understanding the principles of the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Can you imagine how hard it is for a fool to grasp the gospel?

Proverbs 18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.

Psalms 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.