Sinless for as long as God lives

[smaller]

Yes you will see him again.

Thanks man. Shows me you have some heart. Just kidding of course.

Getting back to the topic matter I can't tell you how many many long long times I've spent with God's Word studying the matters of sin, in order to AVOID sin.

My first engagements came, perhaps Divinely, I think so, when trying to pin down the root causes of sin, which are "internal." Eventually I came to know the futility of defraying the attacks of the enemies, internally. They do transpire. They morph into different means.

In the scriptural senses the workers of darkness are without any doubt Satan and his messengers. We ARE commanded to give them no place, but they do have their place internally. If we thought about this for a moment we'd understand that Satan has been around for a much longer time than we have been. That's why "devils" in general are much smarter than men are.

So when people say we are sinless, I just can't credibly buy any of those types of claims based first on personal knowledge, and secondly based on scriptures themselves. I have come to know more intimately and progressively, the very REAL GRACE that I have always needed in my life because of the flesh being against the Spirit. Anyone who is an honest believer knows exactly what I'm talking about, though our internal battles may vary in degrees and substance. I don't even like to talk about all the different angles that our adversaries use, but I do know they are used.

On that basis alone I will deny any form of doctrines that claims sinlessness. Paul landed with the exact opposite conclusion, that being the chief of sinners after salvation. IF we see our internal battles with our ADVERSARY, in our own MINDS, it's not hard see how Paul made that determination for himself. It wasn't a question of "just Paul."

Is the law against sin? Yes. I am too. Therefore how can I be against the LAW? I can't be. Yet it is by that very same LAW that proves us to be sinners.

Y'all will have to keep in mind however that I do NOT gauge sin as solely an external matter. It is progressive, first from thought, then from word and eventually, if not stopped dead in it's tracks in the first two stages it culminates in the final stage, the actual act. But for me I take Jesus' Measures in these matters as put forth in:

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

It is the internal evil that IS present with us just as it was for Paul in Romans 7:21 that provides the impetus or the basis for "hating ourselves" and even other people, as Jesus notes in the attached scripture link and citing given previous.

Jesus will always be against sin, evil and death. But these things DO have a very real place in the present reality of us ALL. I will assuredly NOT be standing before my Maker, claiming sinlessness or claiming that "I" don't have evil thoughts. That is an even worse sin, the sin that Jesus expressed His most adamant hatred for:

LYING HYPOCRISY.

So this stance, the insistence of at least being honest, which I consider the least virtue of the Spirit, eventually led me through the scriptures to understand "judgments" better and to understand LAW itself better.

Will the evil present with us be "allowed" to be OK by God in Christ? Never. Yet it is this very fact that anchors me even harder to the CROSS, knowing my need can not be fulfilled of my own accord. I can not find the means to wipe out that evil present, and be PERFECT in this present life. I don't find that to even be a written promise, as Chopper rightfully termed it, the sinless perfection of the flesh, which is A LIE.

What I can and have come to understand is that GOD WILL HAVE HIS MERCY. And because of our "quite mutual" situations in this regard, of having evil present with us, it does push us AWAY from the LAW, knowing that the law is ineffective to eradicate internal evil and then HEADLONG into Grace and Mercy expressed by Christ. I am quite comfortable there but only to the extent that I do NOT give or grant that pleasure to my own sorry sinful flesh and never will.

No, I do NOT trust my own flesh and never will.

 

[smaller]

I'll be praying for your grieving process, that the Lord will hug you both from the inside of you. I like Ecclesiastes 3:18-21. Especially where it says that the beast (my Harley and your dog) have "spirits". I know my Harley did!! Harley was a Bichon Frise and we liked that bread so much that now we have three Bichon's. I would recommend that you get another, of the same breed as soon as possible, it does help, because I see Harley in the first Bichon we bought.

Love you two, my Wife and I will be praying for you guys, we are so, so sorry for what you had to go thru for such a young best buddy.

Some dear friends of mine are Bichon lovers. We enjoy all of our friends pets too. Or any animal, really. I think they have been equally devasted by losing a couple of them over the years. A friend of mine and his wife, now deceased, had what was their last dog. It was a dog like ours was, we've had two of them prior that lasted 16 years, a Lasha Apso. Their dog lived a long time, but eventually had to be put to sleep. I don't think my friend was ever the same after that. The death of his pal just devastated him inside. He literally lost his own will to live after his dog died, and followed him to the grave a few short years later. I've seen it happen to other older people as well.

So as we get old we have to watch ourselves, I guess, in this regard. I've been trying to buck up but I can't tell you the last time I cried deep sobbing tears all night long for anyone, but I did for my dog. I seriously try not to dwell on the problems of all the starving children of this world, because it is even far more horrific, and can immobilize us. Whatever contributing we do to this continual issue is NEVER enough. And we can find our own condemnation in that as well.

This life can be a very sad one. Thank God for our Eternal Hope In Him.

 

[JLB]

No, I do NOT trust my own flesh and never will.

Of course we are not to trust own own flesh, but rather, we are to crucify it, and put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

 

[JLB]

This life can be a very sad one. Thank God for our Eternal Hope In Him.

Amen.

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 1 Corinthians 15:19

 

[smaller]

Of course we are not to trust own own flesh, but rather, we are to crucify it, and put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

As I've always observed JLB, the instant any believer tries to justify the evil present with them, they have in fact fallen. It can't be done. IF we do stand, we stand honestly, with evil present with us, just as Paul did in Romans 7:21.

I have zero reasons to believe that Jesus has to be kind to that aspect of any of us. I'm not even tolerant of it in myself. Why would I expect Jesus to be more tolerant? That's not the case. I always want more of Him and less of that internal aspect of myself. I really believe we all do.

So a deeper question is this: Did the Blood of Jesus get shed to justify the evil present within me or anyone else? Allow me to answer this:

Uh, no. That never happened.

 

[JLB]

As I've always observed JLB, the instant any believer tries to justify the evil present with them, they have in fact fallen.

I don't know of Christian, on this Forum or not, who tries to justify the evil that is present with them.

The context of the evil is described by Paul in Romans 7.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:21-25

The evil that is present with us is sin. Sin that is in our flesh.

The law of sin in our members.

Not Satan.
Not demons.

Sin. The law of sin.

Those Christians who walk after the flesh, to gratify it's sinful passions, to practice the works thereof, will not inherit the kingdom.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

Thank God, that He id not leave us in this condition, but has given us His Spirit, by which we can walk in victory, by crucifying our flesh and walking in the Spirit and to be led by the Spirit, rather than be led by the desires of the flesh.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:22-24


JLB

 

[JLB]

So a deeper question is this: Did the Blood of Jesus get shed to justify the evil present within me or anyone else? Allow me to answer this:

Uh, no. That never happened.

I couldn't agree more.

The blood of Jesus was shed, so we could be cleansed of our sin, and therefore have the Holy Spirit within us, in order to be empowered to walk after the Spirit.


Do you believe we have been given the Holy Spirit, only to continue living the lifestyle we once did before we were born again and received His Spirit?


JLB

 

[smaller]

I couldn't agree more.
The blood of Jesus was shed, so we could be cleansed of our sin, and therefore have the Holy Spirit within us, in order to be empowered to walk after the Spirit.

Do you believe we have been given the Holy Spirit, only to continue living the lifestyle we once did before we were born again and received His Spirit?

I've never personally met anyone who has had a "real" experience with Jesus to ever be the same. I'd probably say I've met more people who got worse and fallen into different forms of sin that they didn't have prior to their encounter. Which I chalk up to the real "internal resistance" factor that comes with the territory of belief in Christ. I think unbelievers term it "false self righteousness."

I'd also say most believers eventually come out of that particular sin when the reality of actually still being a sinner smacks them upside the head.

 

[smaller]

I don't know of Christian, on this Forum or not, who tries to justify the evil that is present with them.

The context of the evil is described by Paul in Romans 7.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:21-25

The evil that is present with us is sin. Sin that is in our flesh.

The presence of sin dwelling in the flesh does not and can not make the "flesh" evil. We've dealt with this topic at length. IF we don't understand that the evil present with Paul was the influence of our adversary in lusts and tempations, then we are only left with EVIL PAUL and that will never compute.

It is simply not that hard to connect the dot of evil present to temptations, lusts and deceptions which originate internally and are in fact of our mutual adversary.

Any believer who has "honestly" dealt with attempts to rid themselves of every temptation will sooner or later come to realize it's source is not "just us." It's also a great understanding to perceive in order to "depart" or "divide" from that working and worker. It forces us to question every thought, as we rightfully should engage in, as directed by the scriptures.

But I know that this presents a very high hurdle for most believers, because they do not perceive what is really happening, inside or "in the flesh." Ultimately I consider that such blindness comes about via exposure to the Word, more than other people. Where the Word is sown, RESISTANCE to the things of God in Christ follows, HAND IN HAND. It's as predictable as RAIN. Mark 4:15 demonstates this reality. It's also why a lot of clergy seem to have more difficulties than the average bear.

Internal resistance by our adversary is, uh, yes, very real.

 

[Kidron]

-
As believers, Children of the Light, and Saints of God, we understand that its the Blood of Jesus that was poured out at Calvary while He was hanging between earth and sky on a Cross, that God uses to was away all our sin.
We understand that to live within a sinless Heaven we have to become sinless, and this omits anything we can do to achieve it, as its impossible to pardon or cleanse away your own sins using water, works, or anything else you can do to try and fail.
So, to redeem us and cleanse us eternally from all our sin, God sent Himself, wrapped in flesh, born of a Virgin, to accomplish what no man can accomplish, as no man other then One born of a virgin sprung from the very Holy Spirit of God can accomplish redemption on behalf of fallen humanity.

The situation facing God, facing fallen humanity, was ....How does a Holy God become one with unholy humanity.
God solved this by the Gift of Salvation, a free gift to mankind, whereby God Himself offers Himself sinless on a cross , bearing the sins of the whole world, which forgives the sins of the whole world of humanity once applied. And in this, each believer who has received this Gift of Salvation is returned to the original sinless state of God himself as found in the Garden of Eden before the fall......Sinless.
So, this Salvation, this Holy Redemptive cleansing of all sin from each member of humanity, that was achieved at Calvary by God on a Cross, allows everyone and anyone who would come and receive it by FAITH the opportunity to become God's Eternal Son, One with God, and as Sinless as God Himself, as only THIS can solve the disconnect between fallen sinful humanity and Holy God Himself.

God is eternal, therefor God's Blood cleanses and sanctifies and justifies and redeems, eternally, and once applied to a BELIEVER the believer becomes as Holy as the Holy Blood of an Eternal God.
And this "work" of God, whereby He offered Himself on a Cross to reconnect humanity to Himself as "family", as "one",... once applied to a Believer,... keeps them eternally as Holy as God's Blood..., As Holy as God Himself. And this Salvation continues on behalf of the eternal Blood of God until the day the believer is totally and completely transformed into the very image of Christ Himself when Jesus comes for His Bride, His Church, His Body.
Therefore, Salvation continues to cleanse and redeem a believer for all eternity because this is the nature and effect of the Eternal Blood of God.

"And GOD who began the good work within you, will CONTINUE HIS WORK until IT IS FINISHED on the day when Jesus The Christ returns"....
Philippians 1:6 = KEEPS YOU SAVED.

The reason we say "Jesus Saves", is because Jesus IS God and Jesus IS the Blood Atonement...= KEEPS YOU SAVED.

""" In whom we HAVE redemption through God's Blood, the forgiveness of SINS, according to the riches of His Grace",,,, " it is the GIFT OF GOD" "not of WORKS, lest any man should BOAST". = KEEPS YOU SAVED.

 

[JLB]

The presence of sin dwelling in the flesh does not and can not make the "flesh" evil.

Chapter and verse please!

 

[JLB]

-
As believers, Children of the Light, and Saints of God, we understand that its the Blood of Jesus that was poured out at Calvary while He was hanging between earth and sky on a Cross, that God uses to was away all our sin.
We understand that to live within a sinless Heaven we have to become sinless, and this omits anything we can do to achieve it, as its impossible to pardon or cleanse away your own sins using water, works, or anything else you can do to try and fail.
So, to redeem us and cleanse us eternally from all our sin, God sent Himself, wrapped in flesh, born of a Virgin, to accomplish what no man can accomplish, as no man other then One born of a virgin sprung from the very Holy Spirit of God can accomplish redemption on behalf of fallen humanity.

The situation facing God, facing fallen humanity, was ....How does a Holy God become one with unholy humanity.
God solved this by the Gift of Salvation, a free gift to mankind, whereby God Himself offers Himself sinless on a cross , bearing the sins of the whole world, which forgives the sins of the whole world of humanity once applied. And in this, each believer who has received this Gift of Salvation is returned to the original sinless state of God himself as found in the Garden of Eden before the fall......Sinless.
So, this Salvation, this Holy Redemptive cleansing of all sin from each member of humanity, that was achieved at Calvary by God on a Cross, allows everyone and anyone who would come and receive it by FAITH the opportunity to become God's Eternal Son, One with God, and as Sinless as God Himself, as only THIS can solve the disconnect between fallen sinful humanity and Holy God Himself.

God is eternal, therefor God's Blood cleanses and sanctifies and justifies and redeems, eternally, and once applied to a BELIEVER the believer becomes as Holy as the Holy Blood of an Eternal God.
And this "work" of God, whereby He offered Himself on a Cross to reconnect humanity to Himself as "family", as "one",... once applied to a Believer,... keeps them eternally as Holy as God's Blood..., As Holy as God Himself. And this Salvation continues on behalf of the eternal Blood of God until the day the believer is totally and completely transformed into the very image of Christ Himself when Jesus comes for His Bride, His Church, His Body.
Therefore, Salvation continues to cleanse and redeem a believer for all eternity because this is the nature and effect of the Eternal Blood of God.

"And GOD who began the good work within you, will CONTINUE HIS WORK until IT IS FINISHED on the day when Jesus The Christ returns"....Philippians 1:6

The reason we say "Jesus Saves", is because Jesus IS God and Jesus IS the Blood Atonement.

""" In whom we HAVE redemption through God's Blood, the forgiveness of SINS, according to the riches of His Grace",,,, " it is the GIFT OF GOD" "not of WORKS, lest any man should BOAST".

Never the less, those who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Chopper]

Some dear friends of mine are Bichon lovers. We enjoy all of our friends pets too. Or any animal, really. I think they have been equally devasted by losing a couple of them over the years. A friend of mine and his wife, now deceased, had what was their last dog. It was a dog like ours was, we've had two of them prior that lasted 16 years, a Lasha Apso. Their dog lived a long time, but eventually had to be put to sleep. I don't think my friend was ever the same after that. The death of his pal just devastated him inside. He literally lost his own will to live after his dog died, and followed him to the grave a few short years later. I've seen it happen to other older people as well.

So as we get old we have to watch ourselves, I guess, in this regard. I've been trying to buck up but I can't tell you the last time I cried deep sobbing tears all night long for anyone, but I did for my dog. I seriously try not to dwell on the problems of all the starving children of this world, because it is even far more horrific, and can immobilize us. Whatever contributing we do to this continual issue is NEVER enough. And we can find our own condemnation in that as well.

This life can be a very sad one. Thank God for our Eternal Hope In Him.

Thank you for your good reply. Even talking about my wonderful Harley, brought tears to my eyes. We never forget the unconditional love of a good dog. If anyone is a good example of God's love, a good dog comes very close.

 

[smaller]

Chapter and verse please!

Those who teach that the flesh itself is evil have a theological problem.

This teaching was dealt with at length by the early churches and rightfully decried as heretical gnosticism.

But unfortunately, as with any form of false teaching, it always comes back again to pry it's wares. This detraction from the "real issues" of sin is also a working of the adversary in that false teaching.

One of my own daughters, (all my children are believers who have accepted Christ into their hearts) who is a rock solid christian, got involved with a "sect" that teaches this lie. They basically teach believers that their own flesh is evil, which I consider to be a somewhat dangerous understanding that can lead to a lot of trouble, if not checked. Her and I went around quite a bit about it. She too doesn't really care to hear that (HER) sin is demonic in nature, according to the scriptures, in as little as an EVIL THOUGHT. (Matt. 5:28 for example)

Most believers just do not perceive it as such. Most believing men "excuse" the above 'lust of the flesh' as 'natural.' It's not. It's demonic intrusions into the mind.

 

[smaller]

Thank you for your good reply. Even talking about my wonderful Harley, brought tears to my eyes. We never forget the unconditional love of a good dog. If anyone is a good example of God's love, a good dog comes very close.

My wife and I are serious when we say that our dog loved us more than our own children. It's a hard thing to lose. Particularly when those whom they trust the absolute most are the ones that take them to have the deed done at the end. It's just a horrifying experience for anyone.

 

[JLB]

Those who teach that the flesh itself is evil have a theological problem.

This teaching was dealt with at length by the early churches and rightfully decried as heretical gnosticism.

But unfortunately, as with any form of false teaching, it always comes back again to pry it's wares. This detraction from the "real issues" of sin is also a working of the adversary in that false teaching.

One of my own daughters, (all my children are believers who have accepted Christ into their hearts) who is a rock solid christian, got involved with a "sect" that teaches this lie. They basically teach believers that their own flesh is evil, which I consider to be a somewhat dangerous understanding that can lead to a lot of trouble, if not checked. Her and I went around quite a bit about it. She too doesn't really care to hear that (HER) sin is demonic in nature, according to the scriptures, in as little as an EVIL THOUGHT. (Matt. 5:28 for example)

Most believers just do not perceive it as such. Most believing men "excuse" the above 'lust of the flesh' as 'natural.' It's not. It's demonic intrusions into the mind.

Ok, so you don't have a scripture.

Be Blessed.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Ok, so you don't have a scripture.

Be Blessed.

JLB

There is no scripture that shows that the flesh itself is evil. The flesh is against the Spirit and contrary to the Spirit PRECISELY because temptations, lusts and deceptions thereIN, withIN, are internal and are of our adversary.

That's also why the notion of "excusing our whole self" in the Name of Jesus is entirely futile, which is what most of the OSAS crowd tries vainly to do.

Though I too adhere to OSAS, I will never extend the Grace and Mercy of God in Christ to the evil present with me. I know for a fact that didn't happen. I also know that "works" are not going to change the conclusion either BUT they are a fantastic way to TORTURE our adversary, which is WHY I engage in "good works." It drives the devils crazy.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes you will see him again.

My dog of ten years also dies about 3 weeks ago. We do miss those animals.

But will they be in heaven? I'd like to think so...but is there any biblical support?

 

[smaller]

My dog of ten years also dies about 3 weeks ago. We do miss those animals.

But will they be in heaven? I'd like to think so...but is there any biblical support?

Yeah, there is actually. I referred to it in Romans 8 earlier, specifically vs. 21. There are other notable mentions of the same thing in the scriptures, but probably an aside to this topic. All of creation is currently groaning in pain, just as we are. And they, like us, are in the same way, seeking to put off the dilemma's of the fall of man into sin, evil and death. Most of us groan in this way, anyway.

Anybody who loves a world of sin, evil and death should have their heads examined. Any who think they are exempt from the obvious problems these bring to us are only kidding themselves.

I often use this "mutual dissatisfaction" as a way to connect with unsaved people and to present Jesus as the Ultimate Solution. This is the HOPE that we bear in the present world, isn't it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Any one here agreeing the point that works will save you?

Reba,
I don't believe it's DOCTRINE that will save us.

If one believes in God and goes to a church that teaches works, surely God will take this into account.
Works can save if this is what the person believes.
in fact, works are necessary for everyone.
"Not those who cry Lord, Lord, but those who do the will of my Father."
Mathew 7:21

Jesus said it, not me.

Wondering