Sinners in the hands of an angry God

[Vic C.]

Now we can either discuss this in a civilized manner or we can kiss the discussion goodbye. I don't like to kill topics because of attitude only. That is counter-productive; the attitude is still there. The spirit in which we debate is as important as what is being debated, IMO.

The "in your face" way of debating from both camps was one, no, THE reason for canning the UR discussion in the first place. It also was a driving force for me to investigate eternal seperation by means of perishing (annihilation).

This IS a most passionate topic, which is an understatement. LOL

 

[guibox]

Sorry guys, if you think that God is the bloodthirsty monster Edward's makes him out to be, your conscience is seared and you serve a two headed, fickle diety.

Regardless of the fate of the wicked, God loves them with all His heart. He doesn't just pick and choose who He loves. He doesn't just love those who come to Him and despise those who don't. Our God is much bigger and grander than the inferior sense of justice and 'love' that we humans have.

That concept right there should discredit Edwards' 'god' no matter what you believe will happen to the wicked.

If you guys can't understand that, you don't know what the gospel is, or what we mean when we say that God is love.

And as far as the biblical evidence goes, when you take off the same glasses that Edward uses, you will see that the language used isn't as clear cut as you would like to think.

 

[bibleberean]

Jonathon Edwards does not portray a "blood thirsty" monster.

He portrays the God of the bible.

Therefore, let every one that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of Almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over a great part of this congregation: Let every one fly out of Sodom: "Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed."

Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The PC version of a loving God is a lie.

The bible's version of a loving God is the truth.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Where are the son's of the devil going?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[DivineNames]

Looks like the UR fundies are out in force again....

Deny hell, deny God's wrath, deny that you should fear God. Deny Jesus' words:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into "everlasting" fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

[quote="Matthew 25:46":d485d]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

:-?[/quote:d485d]


If you can find scripture to support your position Gary, well so can the Muslims who decapitate people, and who carry out terrorist attacks.

If "true" Islam is the fundamentalist kind, it doesn't change the fact that any moral/rational person would reject it. If "true" Christianity is the fundamentalist kind, it doesn't change the fact that any moral/rational person would reject it.

 

[bibleberean]

It is God's wrath we are talking about. Not man's.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

You are right Vic and I would like to say that I will pull back. I don't wish to behave in the same manner as those I so vehemently disagree with here.

I too investigated the annhilation idea and find it even so much more in line with the love of God then the terror that some try and stick to Him.

 

[DivineNames]

From a booklet intended for children-


"You are going to see again the child about which you read in the Terrible Judgement, that it was condemned to hell. See! It is a pitiful sight. The little child is in this red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out. See how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor of the oven. You can see on the face of this little child what you see on the faces of all in hell-- despair, desperate and horrible! The same law which is for others is also for children. If children, knowingly and willingly, break God's commandments, they must also be punished like others. This child committed very bad mortal sins, knowing well the harm of what it was doing, and knowing that hell would be the punishment. God was very good to this child. Very likely God saw that this child would get worse and worse, and would never repent, and so it would have to be punished much more in hell. So God, in His mercy, called it out of the world in its early childhood."


John Furniss (1855) The Sight of Hell.
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/kidlit1.html

For info on the author-
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06324c.htm

 

[bibleberean]

2 Corinthians 5:10-12 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

God's wrath or God's love that is the choice a loving God has given us.

Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Ezekiel 18:31-32 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God's love or the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Relic]

It also was a driving force for me to investigate eternal seperation by means of perishing (annihilation).

8-) :smt023

The wrath of God is a subject all too many people don't want to learn about. It freaks them out too much! So they skim over those parts in the bible and just read the cushy comfy scriptures. The ones that make you feel like hugging your teddy bear. :smt055 8-)

When the bible thumped me over the head in showing me my ignorance of the many ways in which people sin unaware (convicted me) , I think that's about the time (many years ago) that I threw my bible across the room because it freaked me out so much, all that convicting of my sins that it did to me and oh my, It taught me about the wrath of God! And what the truth about fear (revering Him). Yes, we are to fear God! And we are to not fear the evil that God teaches us about, but we are to be armed fully with the whole armor of God. Not just partly. Well, Whew! Talk about freakin out a 20 something sinner who thought she knew how good she was! HA! little did I know back then! Jonathan Edwards would have been throw across the room at that time too, had I read it so early in my walk with the Lord, not knowing what His wrath really is all about.

Yep, I threw my bible across the room back then, but I didn't throw it out because it spoke some stark sharp words of truth to me about the wrath of God. As does, the sermon of Jonathan Edwards, Old English that it is. 8-)

No, that didn't stop me either from investigating what these things are that God "annihilates" and separates from His presence. We all have a mess to clean up! And if you deny what appears to be the ugly facts that God reveals to you about the whiles of the devil and the behaviors people act upon and how God burns it to be nevermore,casts it into the lake of fire, then what does that say about a person..... I would ask, are they are in denial and don't really want to know these things as revealed in the bible? Don't they want to know what they need to get rid of in their lives and what they need to know about the evil, in order to be made awares and fully armed with the Word of God that is written? If you don't know the enemy, you are at a disadvantage.


I mean hey..... If you want pure gold you gotta turn up the heat in order to skim the dross off of the top of it, right? :wink:


Yep, the bible convicts us of what we knew not we had! 8-)
And btw, a good preacher will not shy away from revealing the stark truth of the wrath of God.

Jonathon Edwards does not portray a "blood thirsty" monster.

He portrays the God of the bible.



Therefore, let every one that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of Almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over a great part of this congregation: Let every one fly out of Sodom: "Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed."

Oh, of course Edwards spoke in the "emphasis" of the classic Old English language! :smt023 :smt038 Bravo!!!! Ya gotta love the impact of it!

Shakespeare would have had a wonderful time of making dramatic display out of these writings! :D




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[DivineNames]

It is God's wrath we are talking about. Not man's.

It doesn't make any difference.

 

[Relic]

It is God's wrath we are talking about. Not man's.

It doesn't make any difference.

It doesn't make any difference? :o

oh pray tell what this difference is that you are speaking of.... :smt017
Please be more clear about what you are intending on relaying here.


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[DivineNames]

oh pray tell what this difference is that you are speaking of....

Read the posts and you will know.

 

[DivineNames]

Relic, are you the one that argued something along the lines that an eternal hell was needed by the Christian God, because otherwise people wouldn't follow the kind of God with an eternal hell?

:-D

 

[Relic]

oh pray tell what this difference is that you are speaking of....

Read the posts and you will know.

I have been reading the posts.

Please, forgive me if I have missed it, so please do specify where it would show that it makes no difference?

Be of good sport and help me please.


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[DivineNames]

If you read the bottom of page 3, you will see what was being talked about.

 

[Relic]

Relic, are you the one that argued something along the lines that an eternal hell was needed by the Christian God, because otherwise people wouldn't follow the kind of God with an eternal hell?
:-D

" an eternal hell was needed by the Christian God, because otherwise people wouldn't follow the kind of God with an eternal hell? "



Huh? what does that mean? it is not a clear thought. :-?


You must have misread something somewhere.

If wrote such a thing show me exactly where I wrote it.


.

 

[Relic]

If you read the bottom of page 3, you will see what was being talked about.

yes, I know this, that is what my post was quoting, in the first place.


So, please do clarify why you think there is no difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of man?




.

 

[DivineNames]

You must have misread something somewhere.

I don't think so. I can't be bothered to find something from months and months back.

Huh? what does that mean? it is not a clear thought.

I believe you claimed that few people would follow the Christian God, without the threat of hell. (I'm not sure if you agreed it was a "threat" however)

Plenty of people follow the Hindu God, without the threat of hell, so whats special about the Christian God? Thats where the "circular" aspect of your argument came in...

 

[Vic C.]

I mean hey..... If you want pure gold you gotta turn up the heat in order to skim the dross off of the top of it, right?

Or like the silversmith says, "I know my silver is refined and pure when I can see my reflection in it." ;-)

I also believe there is "bad" sliver that just cannot be refined.

Nice definition of the word "fear" Relic. I concur.

Peace and Merry Christmas, (no peace signs - LOL)

 

[DivineNames]

So, please do clarify why you think there is no difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of man?

Such horrific immorality should be rejected. It doesn't matter who is supposed to be doing it.

Of course, you don't think God's supposed behaviour is immoral. But then, Muslim fundamentalist's don't think blowing people up is immoral.