Sinners in the hands of an angry God

[wavy]

You forgot to include the everlasting torment

Idiomatic expression for their "contempt" (Daniel 12:2) and their worm (Isaiah 66:24) which is a Hebraic expression meaning "evil memory").

Who should we believe, wavy or Jesus?

False dichotomy.

I chose Jesus, cause wavy doesn't even believe that Jesus instituted the Church.

Well then, I see where your error is. The existence of some new entity called a "church" is easily disproven.

 

[Solo]

You forgot to include the everlasting torment

Idiomatic expression for their "contempt" (Daniel 12:2) and their worm (Isaiah 66:24) which is a Hebraic expression meaning "evil memory").

Who should we believe, wavy or Jesus?

False dichotomy.

[quote:a8b6b]I chose Jesus, cause wavy doesn't even believe that Jesus instituted the Church.

Well then, I see where your error is. The existence of some new entity called a "church" is easily disproven.[/quote:a8b6b]

Your doctrine comes from your mind, and not the Word of God. That is where the real problem is. It reminds me of satan tempting Jesus in the wilderness and using the scripture to tempt and persuade the Lord. It is very important to rightly divide the Word of truth, and since you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God, I understand where your shortcomings are, not to mention you are not a member of the body of Christ Jesus, the Church.

 

[wavy]

Your doctrine comes from your mind, and not the Word of God. That is where the real problem is. It reminds me of satan tempting Jesus in the wilderness and using the scripture to tempt and persuade the Lord. It is very important to rightly divide the Word of truth, and since you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God, I understand where your shortcomings are, not to mention you are not a member of the body of Christ Jesus, the Church.

Your proofs of these claims about me and your scriptural proofs of the claims about what the Word says are overwhelming me...

 

[Solo]

Your doctrine comes from your mind, and not the Word of God. That is where the real problem is. It reminds me of satan tempting Jesus in the wilderness and using the scripture to tempt and persuade the Lord. It is very important to rightly divide the Word of truth, and since you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God, I understand where your shortcomings are, not to mention you are not a member of the body of Christ Jesus, the Church.

Your proofs of these claims about me and your scriptural proofs of the claims about what the Word says are overwhelming me...

You have no humility to be overwhelmed, and you ignore scriptural proofs that do not coincide with your false doctrines. You are continually ridiculing the belief of believers, and that is characteric of the enemy, not a loving brother in Jesus Christ. You have shown me that you have no ties to the body of Christ as you continually cut and twist the scriptures.

 

[wavy]

You have no humility to be overwhelmed, and you ignore scriptural proofs that do not coincide with your false doctrines.

Ahem, Solo...

I was being sarcastic seeing as how you in reality lacked scripture in your post. So I do not possibly see how the above statements could be true...

You are continually ridiculing the belief of believers,

Lies. If anyone can be accused of this, it is you.

 

[Solo]

You have no humility to be overwhelmed, and you ignore scriptural proofs that do not coincide with your false doctrines.

Ahem, Solo...

I was being sarcastic seeing as how you in reality lacked scripture in your post. So I do not possibly see how the above statements could be true...

You are continually ridiculing the belief of believers,

Lies. If anyone can be accused of this, it is you.

And you continue to prove my point.

 

[wavy]

Have a nice day, Solo.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after ha Moshiach.

 

[guibox]

Those of you who do not believe the Words of Jesus in Matthew 25 can make up whatever you want, but it still does not negate the truth. Jesus uses the same exact word that is translated eternal for eternal life that is used for everlasting in everlasting torment and everlasting fire. Perhaps you all believe that eternal life is finite as well!? :roll:

The eternal is relevant to whom it applies to and to what terms. You cannot contrast (which this passage is doing) eternal life and eternal punishment if that punishment is eternal life in some fashion. Then they are the same thing, regardless of what that eternal punishment would entail. Whatever the punishment is it is not 'eternal life'. According to the traditional sense souls are conscious and living for eternity.

Eternal life means that life is eternal. Eternal punishment means that the punishment (which is the opposite of eternal life) is eternal. It doesn't say 'eternal punishing', but eternal punishment.

What is this ultimate punishment? It is not 'fire'. The fire is merely a means to an end. God needs to create a 'new heaven and a new earth, for the old has passed away). This can only happen with the purging of the old.

"The elements shall melt with fervent heat and all the works therein shall be burnt up"

What is this punishment?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life"

Notice the parallel with Matthew 25. Eternal life for the righteous, eternal death (punishment) for the wicked.

Both are eternal in results. Life everlasting because the righteous are raised with 'immortality and 'incorruption' 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, eternal death because the wicked DO NOT have immortality but are still mortal.

Hence, you cannot apply eternal duration of conscious torment as this punishment when it is contrasted with 'life' and 'immortality'.

Life is a gift given to the righteous. "Those that do not have the Son do not have life"

 

[Solo]

Those of you who do not believe the Words of Jesus in Matthew 25 can make up whatever you want, but it still does not negate the truth. Jesus uses the same exact word that is translated eternal for eternal life that is used for everlasting in everlasting torment and everlasting fire. Perhaps you all believe that eternal life is finite as well!? :roll:

The eternal is relevant to whom it applies to and to what terms. You cannot contrast (which this passage is doing) eternal life and eternal punishment if that punishment is eternal life in some fashion. Then they are the same thing, regardless of what that eternal punishment would entail. Whatever the punishment is it is not 'eternal life'. According to the traditional sense souls are conscious and living for eternity.

Eternal life means that life is eternal. Eternal punishment means that the punishment (which is the opposite of eternal life) is eternal. It doesn't say 'eternal punishing', but eternal punishment.

What is this ultimate punishment? It is not 'fire'. The fire is merely a means to an end. God needs to create a 'new heaven and a new earth, for the old has passed away). This can only happen with the purging of the old.

"The elements shall melt with fervent heat and all the works therein shall be burnt up"

What is this punishment?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life"

Notice the parallel with Matthew 25. Eternal life for the righteous, eternal death (punishment) for the wicked.

Both are eternal in results. Life everlasting because the righteous are raised with 'immortality and 'incorruption' 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, eternal death because the wicked DO NOT have immortality but are still mortal.

Hence, you cannot apply eternal duration of conscious torment as this punishment when it is contrasted with 'life' and 'immortality'.

Life is a gift given to the righteous. "Those that do not have the Son do not have life"

Jesus puts it pretty simple in his discourse. I read that eternal life is for the sheep, and everlasting punishment in everlasting fire is for the goats. The Word for eternal and for everlasting is the same. If everlasting punishment upsets your understanding of the end of unrighteousness, then you will have to take that up with God. My understanding of what Jesus is saying is confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit. I have no problem with it, as God is control of all things. His ways are above my ways, and his understanding is far avove my understanding.

It seems to me that eternal death is much, much worse than eternal life; and it doesn't appear to be without being being aware of it as Jesus taught in Luke 16.

 

[Asaph]

This may have been mentioned before, so forgive me if it has. (I did not read all six pages of posts)

Couldn't the eternal death be the logical result of a person dying with their sin still on them? Meaning that they would then be eternally sentient but without God or any of the attributes of God.

 

[SputnikBoy]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16).

This scripture tells us quite plainly that there will be those who attain everlasting life and those who attain everlasting death. BOTH are everlasting. One will live, the other will perish. No need to complicate things from hereonin with vast arrays of other (contradicting) scriptures.

 

[Asaph]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16).

This scripture tells us quite plainly that there will be those who attain everlasting life and those who attain everlasting death. BOTH are everlasting. One will live, the other will perish. No need to complicate things from hereonin with vast arrays of other (contradicting) scriptures.

What do you mean?

 

[SputnikBoy]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16).

This scripture tells us quite plainly that there will be those who attain everlasting life and those who attain everlasting death. BOTH are everlasting. One will live, the other will perish. No need to complicate things from hereonin with vast arrays of other (contradicting) scriptures.

What do you mean?

What I mean is that John 3:16 tells us quite clearly that those who believe in Jesus (the righteous) will receive everlasting life. Alternatively, those who don't believe in Jesus (the unrighteous or wicked) will perish. It doesn't say that they will be subjected to eternal physical torment but that they will 'perish' ...as in die. And death ...as opposed to life ...will be their punishment. So, John 3:16 could be the beginning and the end of this debate ...no need to go any further.

 

[Asaph]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16).

This scripture tells us quite plainly that there will be those who attain everlasting life and those who attain everlasting death. BOTH are everlasting. One will live, the other will perish. No need to complicate things from hereonin with vast arrays of other (contradicting) scriptures.

What do you mean?

What I mean is that John 3:16 tells us quite clearly that those who believe in Jesus (the righteous) will receive everlasting life. Alternatively, those who don't believe in Jesus (the unrighteous or wicked) will perish. It doesn't say that they will be subjected to eternal physical torment but that they will 'perish' ...as in die. And death ...as opposed to life ...will be their punishment. So, John 3:16 could be the beginning and the end of this debate ...no need to go any further.

So then you are saying that those who physically die with their sin still on them merely "blink out"?

 

[bibleberean]

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.

Jonathan Edward's sermon.

It is biblical and it is true.

Even atheists and the heathen call the God of the bible a "maniac".

The problem with many Christians genuine or not is the fact that they cannot admit that they have been so influenced by the world that they like to try to deny or explain away the fact of God's wrath and present a sissified and "politically correct" Jesus.

They don't like the "name calling Jesus". He called people "serpents" "vipers" "son's of their father the devil" "dogs" "Satan" "dead men's bones" etc.

Naturally they don't want people to see the fate of unsaved.

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

If you get one thing out of that sermon in question understand that being an object of God's wrath is a fate worse than death.


Edward's sermon shows that although we are evil it is God's longsuffering that keeps us from a "well deserved" punishment of suffering, death, and torment.

There is no want of power in God to cast wicked men into hell at any moment. Men's hands cannot be strong when God rises up. The strongest have no power to resist him, nor can any deliver out of his hands.-He is not only able to cast wicked men into hell, but he can most easily do it. Sometimes an earthly prince meets with a great deal of difficulty to subdue a rebel, who has found means to fortify himself, and has made himself strong by the numbers of his followers. But it is not so with God. There is no fortress that is any defence from the power of God. Though hand join in hand, and vast multitudes of God's enemies combine and associate themselves, they are easily broken in pieces. They are as great heaps of light chaff before the whirlwind; or large quantities of dry stubble before devouring flames. We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth; so it is easy for us to cut or singe a slender thread that any thing hangs by: thus easy is it for God, when he pleases, to cast his enemies down to hell. What are we, that we should think to stand before him, at whose rebuke the earth trembles, and before whom the rocks are thrown down?

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Proverbs 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

The PC crowd preaches a God of "wuv". Foo, foo wuv. Disgusting syrupy love.

God is love. He is just and merciful.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

There are many sinful men who do not suffer in this life but they will suffer.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Luke 12:21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

 

[guibox]

So then you are saying that those who physically die with their sin still on them merely "blink out"?

God will burn up the world and create a new heaven and earth and the wicked will be burnt up with it.

Notice the systematic way the bible explains itself in this matter, showing the terms used in proper exegetical order to paint a clear picture:

Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life"

Psalms 37:9,10 "For evildoers shall be cut off, but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while and the wicked shall not be yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place and it shall not be."

Malachi 4:1,3 "For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea and all that do wickedly shall be stubble and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...and ye shall tread down the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works therein shall be burned up."

Psalms 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume. Into smoke shall they consume away."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Revelation 20:9 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the city about and fire came down from heaven and consumed them."

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away."

 

[Asaph]

If that were all that was said on the matter it would be a nice thought. However, it isn't all that is said on the matter of living forever.

 

[DivineNames]

My understanding of what Jesus is saying is confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit.

And perhaps Christians who read it differently have also had it "confirmed" by the Holy Spirit.

 

[DivineNames]

Here are God's words.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

(14) What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (19) One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" (21) Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (22) What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction? (23) What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory (24) even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24 NIV)


Could someone explain these verses?

At first sight, they do look to be very very evil. But perhaps someone can explain them? Perhaps they aren't saying what I think they are saying?

How but to reveal the "glory of His Holy Goodness",
but to reveal the evil that is opposed to it?

• Isaiah 45:7
  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God created the place of residence for both.

What the verses seem to suggest, is that God makes people evil, so he can punish them and show off his power.

Do you disagree?

 

[bibleberean]

What the verses seem to suggest, is that God makes people evil, so he can punish them and show off his power.

Do you disagree?

I disagree...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Why is God longsuffering?


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

God knows the beginning and the end. He knows what choices we will make before we make them.

He uses all things for his glory. Our good choices and our evil choices.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

This is not on topic. I am willing to discuss the verses and what they mean but not in this thread.

Start a new thread on this topic.

Jonathan Edward's sermon is supposed to be the topic here.