Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.

[smaller]

Wow Smaller, I have never thought of it just that way. Hmm, according to what the Word of God says thru Timothy, it is the Truth. Thank you for pointing that out. Do you think that it's because God's omniscience that He knew Adam would sin? Very interesting new thought.

It is pointless to see Adam as an individual. Mark 4:15 shows us that where the Word is sown, Satan, the tempter, the thief immediately enters the heart to steal. From the moment God blessed Adam, THAT HAPPENED. So, immediately after that came THE LAW. Who was that LAW for? The lawless one, Satan, the devil. Satan is also a 'sinner' and has been from the beginning. 1 John 3:8. The Law was always for the arousal of sin, proving sin, giving the knowledge of sin, the condemnation of sin, the judgment of sin, and finally ultimate wrath to the "sinners" which we know for no uncertain fact are the devil and his messengers.

God never intended to leave Adam in a wet pile of dust.

There was a first natural Adam, and after that, Adam returned as Gods son, to God in/as One. That was always Gods Plan. First the natural, then the Spiritual.

1 Cor. 15:43-49.

The tempter in the flesh/mind/heart of Adam was the "killing instrument." Just as it is with us. And, in the process the judgment of these parties is simultaneously transpiring, in the flesh:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

These we take to our own respective crosses in our own flesh.

When we do sin in thought, word or deed, it is not just "the individual" that is involved. It is the tempter or one or more of his own.

WE ARE NOT TO BE THEIR SLAVES IN THE FLESH!

 

[smaller]

I'd like to meet you.
I've never met a sinless person before.

I tend to avoid such claimants. They are usually legalistic in various fashions in the extreme. I think they'll be saved anyway but I also suspect they might not be all that truthful. Particularly when I hear it from the pulpit.

 

[smaller]

smaller let me ask you what does the cross and the blood mean to you?

It MEANS that believers are saved, but the tempter who operates in the flesh isn't.

It's quite pointless to extend the things of God in Christ past where they are due.

One of the parties in the lump of flesh is saved to the uttermost through forgiveness of Christ. Grace of Christ, Mercy of Christ, Love of Christ.

For the tempter? ALL of these things make the anti-Christ spirits very angry and resisting. They have an opposite or opposing effect.

Isaiah 28:20
For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

 

[smaller]

Yes, but in your doctrine do those things change your manifest fellowship with God?

There is no fellowship with God in Christ with our flesh. It is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. It has temptations in it. Gal. 4:14. It has indwelling sin. Romans 7:17-20. It has evil present with us. Romans 7:21. It is vile. Phil. 3:21. No flesh is justified before God for ANY reason. Romans 3:20. God is no respecter of persons because of these conditions. Acts 10:34. We DO have an evil conscience. Hebrews 10:22.

And additionally, because of all the above, God can and DOES and has the full right to deal with us ADVERSELY if He Please to do so, just to drive home the facts.

Anyone who sees these matters truthfully will learn the FEAR of God is fully warranted. They'll also keep themselves from slavery to the above, if they know what's good for them.

And the last place any should go regarding these matters is into lying hypocrisy. That is a direct affront to God in Christ. And shows that the worst state there is has come upon their own hearts. The very people who think they are all that are in fact, the OPPOSITE.

 

[smaller]

Do you know what a metaphor is? Do you know what an analogy is?

I employ "the RULES" on these matters that Jesus set in Mark 4. Yes, there are Rules to understand. Yes, they are in writing.

Someone who is still in an obedient, submissive relationship with their sin nature can not for that very reason be in an obedient, submissive relationship with Jesus.

No one. I repeat, no one is an "obedient sinner." No ones sin has been excused under Grace. Not by forgiveness. Not by repentance. Not by Grace. Not by Mercy. God in Christ condemned sin indwelling the flesh and that's all there is to this subject. No one's sin indwelling is getting a free pass.

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I think what is laughable, besides being unBiblical, is the notion that one can think they can still be in an obedient, submissive relationship with their sin nature (LIKE a wife is to a husband) and they somehow also be in an obedient, submissive relationship with another 'husband', Jesus Christ. Which is the point chopper is getting at with this thread.

Paul uses the analogy of human marriage to illustrate the point. Not the point that believers are still in an obedient, submissive 'marital' relationship with their sin nature, but rather that they have been set free from that submissive relationship and can now be in submission to, and in relationship with Jesus Christ. A point that seems seriously absent from your particular doctrine.

A dead because of sin body, dead because of indwelling sin, is NOT married to Jesus, I can fully assure you.

We're here to discuss the Bible, that's all. You are certainly free to hold whatever doctrines you want to, and freely discuss them here as you have been. Not looking for an argument. But I will admit I'm looking to store up some rewards in the kingdom for myself by sharing what I see in the scriptures and persuading some casual, or not so casual forum readers to be that reward for me in the kingdom by hearing the truth and coming to a genuine faith and repentance that ushers them into the kingdom.

I know the flesh of everyone in this thread with sin indwelling their body will BUCKLE and COMPLAIN when they hear the scriptural facts about their own dead bodies in which dwells sin. Nothing new to me. The flesh is also prideful in the EXTREME. It also vainly tries over and over again to justify itself.

Not going to happen.

 

[smaller]

You asked: Does living a moral life change this conclusion? Did it make the body that is dead because of sin any different?

It's a moral life we need to be seeking everyday as we come to know the mind of Christ as when we are risen with Christ through the renewal of our inner man than we will seek those things from above and not seek the wickedness of this earth, Colossians Chapter 3.

We don't have a moral body. We don't have an obedient body. We have a dead body because of SIN.

What we DO have is the Perfect Spirit of Christ, granted to us by faith IN HIM.

We don't even know the fullness of His Perfection. It is, at this point, A SEED and HIS PROMISE to make us PERFECT when we rid ourselves of this infamous MORTAL COIL.

In the meantime, and it's surely MEAN, we are to reign OVER our own contrary flesh. The first step to reigning is being honest about this contrariness, not "justifying it in the Name of Jesus."

 

[smaller]

I'm sorry brother, you completely misunderstood me.

I don't cut my "evil/defiling" thoughts any excuses. They are evil, they are defiling. They are SIN in mind, they are CONDEMNED and they are NOT excused, bypassed and overlooked in my hide, in the Name of Jesus.

When I get them I immediately remind the tempter that the LoF is ever closer on the near horizon. Yes, this I speak to the tempter in MIND. It's an effective reminder.

 

[smaller]

Was it an evil thought when Adam disobeyed God? How could it be if Adam had no knowledge of good and evil at first.

What Jesus said in Mark 4 (and the other seed parables are IDENTICAL) does happen. And it DID happen with Adam immediately after Gods Words of blessings came to Adam.

Satan, the tempter's HOLD and LAIR is the flesh. From that moment of blessings onward it was no longer a question of 'just Adam' It was Adam and the tempter, the thief, the lawless one who entered his flesh. TWO parties involved.

And the LAW came immediately after that to what most see as only Adam. It wasn't.

Mark 4 also shows us this very simple principle when we desire to understand Gods Words. There are 3 parties involved.

Gods Word
Man
Satan

Any understandings of The Word that do not have all the parties on the table are going to be shallow and void and far from accurate.

You quote Mark 4:15, but this is after the fact or other words after Adams eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil. Same for any of us as only God will chasten us after the fact of knowing we are doing wrong.

Sin is a progression from thought to word to deed. We do not SEE the thought of sin in the flesh of Adam, nor do we see it in anyone else. But we DO see it in ourselves if we are honest. And then, likewise, we can know that everyone has the identical problems of evil/sin thoughts. And these can be as little as "not understanding" the Word, because the THIEF steals our understandings. This is the real reason ALL of us are divided. Because none of us see Perfectly. We see partly cloudy. And we do so because of our mutual adversary.

We do know that Adam did not understand the first command. It was given to Adam, but he botched it when stating it to Eve and Eve shows this botch of understanding before she ate. This also shows the deceiver was already working in the flesh of Adam, exacerbated by THE FIRST LAW.

You say I only see Adam, but no, I see Adam as in all who are created and God breathed as being pure in the beginning wonderfully made by God until they understand the difference between good and evil and choose between the two.

I reject void accounting. No amount of "choice" is going to justify the tempter in the flesh. It never happened, never will. Nor will obedience justify that working/worker nor will morality justify that working/worker.

When we have accurate accounting of the 3 parties involved, THEN we see much better, but still not Perfectly.

The law is not made for the lawless, but given for those who have transgressed Gods word from the beginning to bring their hearts back to God as their hearts became hardened to His word.

Well, that's a nice story, but I doubt that the devil, the tempter, is really all that interested in being legal or obedient, or if so, he's a poser regardless. Specially in religious people, as the Pharisees show us. John 8:44.

There is a reason Jesus resisted the Pharisees so adamantly.

Why? Because they handled THE WORD. So, look at Mark 4:15 and see what happened to them.

 

[reba]

Thinking of a few guys... Act_3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Act 16:25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
According to what i see in the Scriptures .. There was no doubt these men, amongst others, were men of God... they stood out, The Light shined from them...
Do we live our lives in such a manor? so those around us can see/feel we are the Kings kids... Does the clerk in the grocery store know?
The widowed lady that lives down the street? The other driver who wrecked your car? Pizza gave us a wonderful example) The other parents at the little league games do they see Christ in us?
Almost every spanking i got ( being the stinker of family i got'em) I would hear .. Obediences is better then sacrifice ( paraphrased
1Sa_15:22 )
How often do we justify our sins... Justifying is not repentance. ( In myself justifying is rebellion against God)
It has been a long time sense i heard a Godly man step out and suggest we live by the rules.. Not for salvation that is only in the Blood of Christ but because of the Cross .. Because He first loved me..
Speaking out like i know the test will come my way some time in the near future , I pray,please pray with me.. i get a good grade .. Also for our good brother Chopper ... A Godly man with guts...

 

[for_his_glory]

It MEANS that believers are saved, but the tempter who operates in the flesh isn't.

It's quite pointless to extend the things of God in Christ past where they are due.

One of the parties in the lump of flesh is saved to the uttermost through forgiveness of Christ. Grace of Christ, Mercy of Christ, Love of Christ.

For the tempter? ALL of these things make the anti-Christ spirits very angry and resisting. They have an opposite or opposing effect.

Isaiah 28:20
For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Why are you so fixated on the fleshly nature when Paul said in Romans 7:18-23 that there is no good thing in the flesh, but yet we at times go back to this sinful flesh and do things we are not to do. Why do we do this is because we still have that sinful nature in the flesh for it will never die, but we are to die to the flesh as we are risen with Christ and need to be seeking those things from above and not hose things of this earth. God is not going to guard our thoughts and actions as it's up to us to seek God in all things and to know the mind of Christ as it's Gods righteousness that needs to be found in us. Romans 7:18-23; Colossians 3:1-7.

 

[smaller]

Why are you so fixated on the fleshly nature

The flesh is contrary to the Spirit. If I desire to live in the Spirit, which we all do, then I do want to know how my "enemy" operates. No need to overlook the obvious.

when Paul said in Romans 7:18-23 that there is no good thing in the flesh,

Good point. Kinda pointless to see it otherwise.

but yet we at times go back to this sinful flesh and do things we are not to do.

There is always a press by sinful deceiptful flesh in which dwells sin to "let itself off the hook" under various forms of deceptions. "at times" is one of those excuses for the flesh. There just isn't a time when the flesh is off the hook NOR is there any time or conditions where the flesh is NOT contrary to the Spirit.

We do live with that perpetual contrariness. We just don't like to see it that way. We always prefer to "rosy up" the entire package. To see ourselves as only entirely "all that," only the good and great things in Christ. Seldom are we honest about our own sorry hides and we are even LESS honest when it comes to admitting that we are tempted internally by the tempter, a party that is not US as believers. Most are constantly in "cover up and excuse" mode when we should be heading headlong into CONDEMNATION of our own flesh and the workings therein, which are in fact demonic.

We are called OUT of slaveship. But to say we don't have an enemy only gives that enemy excuses, not condemnation.

I refuse to grant the contrary flesh a SHRED of credibility, and I do not because the influences therein are in fact demonic.

Honesty is part of the method of attack.

 

[Douglas Summers]

What was being asked was is the actual words, unmerited favor, found in scripture and the answer is no, but the words kindness, love and gift of God are actually used in scripture. We use the Greek definition to show what grace means as unmerited favor of God even though we do not deserve it.

Hi glory, I'm not sure if you are saying that the Greek meaning of Grace means "unmerited favor" or not, but here is the Greek translation of Grace: Two Greek words in Scripture define Grace, (Euprepeia - graceful in the sense of comeliness, In James 1:11) and (Charis - primarily, that which pleases; and in a secondary sense, good will, favor, loving-kindness) The Scriptures do not say that Grace is unmerited favor,, but though men, whose attempt it is to try and define Grace. There are two types of Grace, The grace of men and the Grace of God. The grace of men usually come from one who might beg for mercy, or someone who you feel sorry for because of their circumstances. The Grace of God is for the whole human race, If you take away the "G" in Grace (you have race). And not after we have done good or bad beforehand . For we are sinners from the womb. We do not sin to become sinners, we sin because we are sinners.

But Grace comes only to those who look in the mirror and see the human nature without it's disguise. For Grace comes only to those who realize their need of it. (Luke 5: 31-32). For Grace unto the world is just another word from Scripture that men wear as a badge to receive honor, but Grace unto the believer is the nature of what was received.....to be distributed.

 

[smaller]

The Spirit is against the flesh. The Spirit is contrary to the flesh. Gal. 5:17

IF we are "in the Spirit" then what are WE?

Yeah, against the contrary flesh. Against it. Always. Contrary to it. Always.

Never do we justify or excuse the contrary flesh.

Even in our very BEST possible behavior we are no different than Paul was. With "evil present" with us. Romans 7:21.

Do we excuse this evil present with us? Claim it "moral?" Claim it "obedient?" Claim it "under Grace?" Claim it "legal?" Claim it under "Mercy?" Forgive it? LOVE IT???

Never ever ever does The Spirit DO THAT! Ever.

 

[for_his_glory]

SALVATION – delivered from sin, promise of our welfare

Salvation means to be whole mind, body and soul as we surrender our will to God and allow his will to work in our lives by applying Gods word to every aspect of our lives. This allows us to know the mind of Christ and all the promises of God for our own wellbeing so we can face anything that tries to come against us while here on this earth so we can triumph and be victorious through the grace and mercy of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally.

John 3:1-7 Jesus was teaching Nicodemus that it was a Spiritual rebirth or renewal of our spirit that through Gods spoken word we can reconcile our past sins through repentance to be made sinless again before God. We are all born with a sin nature because of sin being introduced into the world through Satan’s deceit when he told Eve it was alright to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil even though God forbid them to eat of it. Our flesh will always sin because the flesh is never in obedience to God.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit). We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us. All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi glory, I'm not sure if you are saying that the Greek meaning of Grace means "unmerited favor" or not, but here is the Greek translation of Grace: Two Greek words in Scripture define Grace, (Euprepeia - graceful in the sense of comeliness, In James 1:11) and (Charis - primarily, that which pleases; and in a secondary sense, good will, favor, loving-kindness) The Scriptures do not say that Grace is unmerited favor,, but though men, whose attempt it is to try and define Grace. There are two types of Grace, The grace of men and the Grace of God. The grace of men usually come from one who might beg for mercy, or someone who you feel sorry for because of their circumstances. The Grace of God is for the whole human race, If you take away the "G" in Grace (you have race). And not after we have done good or bad beforehand . For we are sinners from the womb. We do not sin to become sinners, we sin because we are sinners.

But Grace comes only to those who look in the mirror and see the human nature without it's disguise. For Grace comes only to those who realize their need of it. (Luke 5: 31-32). For Grace unto the world is just another word from Scripture that men wear as a badge to receive honor, but Grace unto the believer is the nature of what was received.....to be distributed.

Thank you Douglas, but was only saying the words unmerited favor is not written in the scriptures, but is the Greek definition of grace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you Chopper for such a good topic of discussion. Many of us might not always agree on everything, but our common is that of Christ Jesus and the grace of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

The flesh is contrary to the Spirit. If I desire to live in the Spirit, which we all do, then I do want to know how my "enemy" operates. No need to overlook the obvious.



Good point. Kinda pointless to see it otherwise.



There is always a press by sinful deceiptful flesh in which dwells sin to "let itself off the hook" under various forms of deceptions. "at times" is one of those excuses for the flesh. There just isn't a time when the flesh is off the hook NOR is there any time or conditions where the flesh is NOT contrary to the Spirit.

We do live with that perpetual contrariness. We just don't like to see it that way. We always prefer to "rosy up" the entire package. To see ourselves as only entirely "all that," only the good and great things in Christ. Seldom are we honest about our own sorry hides and we are even LESS honest when it comes to admitting that we are tempted internally by the tempter, a party that is not US as believers. Most are constantly in "cover up and excuse" mode when we should be heading headlong into CONDEMNATION of our own flesh and the workings therein, which are in fact demonic.

We are called OUT of slaveship. But to say we don't have an enemy only gives that enemy excuses, not condemnation.

I refuse to grant the contrary flesh a SHRED of credibility, and I do not because the influences therein are in fact demonic.

Honesty is part of the method of attack.

Sin will be ever present in the flesh as that is a fact I think we can all agree on and we are without excuse before the Lord when we allow the flesh to take over that of the Spirit of God that dwells in us as when we are in the flesh we are not very pleasing to the Lord.

 

[smaller]

Sin will be ever present in the flesh as that is a fact I think we can all agree on and we are without excuse before the Lord when we allow the flesh to take over that of the Spirit of God that dwells in us as when we are in the flesh we are not very pleasing to the Lord.

I'll say again there is no "when." The flesh is contrary to the Spirit, the Spirit is against and contrary to the flesh. There is no "when." This is always the case.

 

[for_his_glory]

smaller there is always a when as none of us are perfect, but being perfected daily. I know my mouth is my worst enemy and will lash out at times even though I know it should not, but am always quick to ask forgiveness not only from God, but also from the one I am lashing out at.

 

[Malachi]

It is pointless to see Adam as an individual....There was a first natural Adam, and after that, Adam returned as God's son, to God in/as One.

Not sure how this is relevant to the topic of the thread, but these ideas about Adam are certainly not from Scripture. Sounds more like Gnosticism. Adam is clearly presented as an individual in Scripture, and there is no mention of Adam in Hebrews 11, which lists the men of faith.

Which brings us to the OP. Those who believe God, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, are justified by grace through faith. To be justified means to be seen by God as righteous, with the righteousness of Christ. So it is not a matter of what someone thinks, but what God declares. Big difference.

Today, there is a tremendous attack on the doctrine of justification, just as there was during the Reformation. The natural human mind simply cannot comprehend that sinners can actually be made "the righteousness of God" in Christ (2 Cor 5:21).