Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.

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I might also add that I doubt very much that Jesus is interested in being married to a body that is dead because of sin. That entire notion is laughable.

The Spirit is and remains factually against and contrary to the flesh. Gal. 5:17. This 'adverse' relationship doesn't change. And it is NO MARRIAGE either.

 

[ezrider]

So how then might we be able to tell if the word is truly written upon our heart?

You are obeying it. That's how.

"14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law...they show the work of the Law written in their hearts" (Romans 2:14-15 NASB)

Yes, but they did it instinctively. They did it without the Law, or rather without the knowledge of the Law.

As the scene from the movie the Ten Commandments, when God etched the commandments in stone and then Moses carried them before the people: If the Spirit of Lord has written His laws into our hearts and mind, why then continue to present the commandments of stone before the people.

2 Cor 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Who can tell what is written on ones heart if they do not speak what is on their heart, but rather mask it by quoting the letter of the law instead.

 

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Who can tell what is written on ones heart if they do not speak what is on their heart, but rather mask it by quoting the letter of the law instead.

Jeremiah 17:1
The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars;

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For those of you who still think there are no consequences for willful, unrepentant sin in the believer:

" 27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep (dead). 31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

33So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment." (1 Corinthians 11:27-34 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

Anyone who thinks they can neglect and/or despise the body of Christ better make sure their health and life insurances are paid up. Reminds me of Jesus' warning to the servants in his household who neglect and abuse the other servants in the household of God.

"45“Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46“Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.47“Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48“But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:45-51 NASB)

Any servant of God who thinks he can be slack in his love for the body of Christ and abuses them had better wake up and not let himself be caught unawares on the Day of the Lord as when a thief breaks in at night. The author of Hebrews cites the Hebrew church's work and love for the church as the evidence of their salvation:

"9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:9-12 NASB)

But so many Christians are convinced that the necessity for work and love for the saints amounts to nothing more than a works salvation. They better start soberly reading their Bible and stop listening to popular church 'hyper-grace' doctrines.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Who can tell what is written on ones heart if they do not speak what is on their heart, but rather mask it by quoting the letter of the law instead.

I guess this will make more sense, and therefore, credible, if you can explain how you personally think what was written on the stone tablets is different from what gets written on the heart. It's not as different as I bet you're going to say it is.

Having the law written on your heart is not so much about what is written on the heart as much as it is about where it is written, and what that really means. When the law becomes a matter of the heart, and not just cold, dead written words, that is when the law is written on the heart.

 

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There is no shortage of the amounts of strange notions that claim to make a body that is dead because of sin not be so. Some claim their dead sin body is obedient to the law. Some claim it is only dead when they commit an external sin, but is no longer a body that is dead because of sin when they repent or do other religious exercises. Some claim that by living a moral life or a sinless lifestyle that their body that is dead because of sin isn't the case. Some even claim that their dead because of sin body is married to Jesus!

I would have to say that all such notions are deceptions of sin in the body that, by a mind of it's own, tries to claim the opposite of Paul's conclusion:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Simple test number 1:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

True or not?

Simple test number 2:

Does this fact change about our body after faith in Christ?

Yes or no?

What does this have to do with the plain scriptures that teach, contrary to your position, that if one lives in disobedience they can not have fellowship with God? Does a dead body because of sin determine your fellowship with God? No. Your obedience in your dead body because of sin does.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is the factual state of every believer regarding our "body" and "sin." This does not keep us from fellowship.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We should readily be able to perceive the above. We are honest and truthful in that sight. That is honest fellowship. NOT deceitful lying hypocrisy fellowship, which is no fellowship whatsoever.



Literal physical death is not the measure of the body being dead because of sin. Most will disagree with Paul about the conditions of the natural body of Adam that is depicted in detail by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:43-49. Paul tells us there that Adam, Gods son, was planted in a natural body that was dishonorable, corrupt and weak. It is DEAD because of sin. These are "always" the states of the natural body. I would note Jesus as the sole exception to these matters because there was no sin in Him.



That does not change the facts of having a body that is dead because of sin. The two are unrelated. ALL bodies are dead because of sin, believer or unbeliever. It has nothing to do with fellowship. I might even say if we claim we don't have a body that is dead because of sin, we are not truthful before God in Christ, to ourselves or to others, and can't be.

We are instead lying hypocrites, claiming fellowship.

Paul hammers this point home in many ways:

Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

We might even note that it was from concupiscence thoughts against the law in Paul's mind that MADE him understand this principle of sin indwelling the flesh being against the law, proven by evil defiling thoughts. Romans 7:7-13. Yes, THOUGHTS were sufficient to prove the case.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

It is sin in the flesh that will refuse this matter of fact every single time, and causes "believers" to see it otherwise. Yes, the body IS dead because of sin. There is no way around it.

Adam was God created and had the breath of God breathed in him to become a living man. Adam had fellowship with God until sin was found in him and he hid himself from God breaking that special fellowship he had with God. Did that mean God no longer loved Adam, no, as God forgave him restoring the fellowship they once had before sin was found in Him. Adam had to repent or recognize what he had done was a transgression of disobedience against Gods instructions.

Restoration comes by handling something with a slow process of perfection. Some people like to restore old furniture to make it look new again. They peal off all the old layers until they get to the bare frame. Step by step they build upon that frame until the whole of perfection and renewal is complete and they have a new creation of something that was old.

This is what Christ does with us as he peals away all the old layers of our past and renews our inner man by His Spirit as he perfects us into a new creation that has been made renewed by Gods righteousness and perfection as we surrender all that is in us and allow Gods Spirit to change whatever needs changing in us. This process is called Gods salvation of saving someone that others might deem unworthy, but God says all are worthy of his grace if they would just come boldly to his throne of grace and surrender all to him.

John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the

Kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God, Romans 8:6, 7.

We are all born with a sin nature because of sin being introduced into the world through Satan’s deceit when he told Eve to eat of the forbidden tree in Genesis 3:1-7. Our flesh will always sin because that is its nature and God cannot see our flesh because of our sins nor can he hear the prayers of a sinner, John 9:31.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved. Jesus was the word made flesh to dwell among us, John 1:14, to show us the way back to Gods grace. John 14:6 Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

Titus 3:5-7; Ephesians 2:8,9 it's not by our works or good deeds that save us, because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus).

 

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What does this have to do with the plain scriptures that teach, contrary to your position,

I don't have a position. I understand very well that the body is dead because of sin. No amount of "obedience" or "lawfulness" or "confession" or "repentance" or any other form of religious notions is going to change that conclusion.

What Paul said is ROCK SOLID TRUE:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

that if one lives in disobedience

We can apply any form of denial we please. The conclusion will always be the same. A body that is dead because of sin is incapable of being anything but what it already is.

IF someone wants to claim their dead because of sin body is obedient, I'd venture it impossible. A dead because of sin body legally obedient? Suuuure it is. Except it's still dead because of sin.

At some point we should see it truthfully, as it is, to be "in truth."

 

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Adam was God created and had the breath of God breathed in him to become a living man. Adam had fellowship with God until sin was found in him and he hid himself from God breaking that special fellowship he had with God.

Think about this for just a half a second. Almost everybody thinks Adam sinned when he ate the infamous fruit.

Paul tells us otherwise:

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Read that fact loud and clear. The LAW is made for sinners.

The law, DO NOT EAT, came to Adam before he or Eve ATE.

Why? Because Adam was already a SINNER.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't have a position. I understand very well that the body is dead because of sin. No amount of "obedience" or "lawfulness" or "confession" or "repentance" or any other form of religious notions is going to change that conclusion.

Great. But the question is, does our obedience or disobedience determine whether we have and enjoy fellowship with God or not? I say it does because that's what Jesus said. Are you saying it doesn't?

Read that fact loud and clear. The LAW is made for sinners.

The misguided notion behind this statement is the false belief that somehow the law disappeared, as in "I don't have to do it anymore" when Christ liberated people from their sins.

Perhaps you've noticed the line upon line, paragraph after paragraph of 'law' teaching in the New Testament. If the law being made for sinners meant we don't have to read it, understand it, contemplate it, or (gasp!) live it, then the authors of the New Testament are stark raving heretics!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law, DO NOT EAT, came to Adam before he or Eve ATE.

Why? Because Adam was already a SINNER.

I'm pretty sure you have to sin before you can be a sinner.
What Adam was at the moment the law came was 'unclothed', not guilty of sin so as to be sinner. He became that after he sinned.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't have a position. I understand very well that the body is dead because of sin. No amount of "obedience" or "lawfulness" or "confession" or "repentance" or any other form of religious notions is going to change that conclusion.

What Paul said is ROCK SOLID TRUE:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.



We can apply any form of denial we please. The conclusion will always be the same. A body that is dead because of sin is incapable of being anything but what it already is.

IF someone wants to claim their dead because of sin body is obedient, I'd venture it impossible. A dead because of sin body legally obedient? Suuuure it is. Except it's still dead because of sin.

At some point we should see it truthfully, as it is, to be "in truth."

A few days ago, JLB summarized your doctrinal beliefs in one of his posts in one of these Bible Study threads. If you recall it, did he accurately represent what you believe?

 

[for_his_glory]

Think about this for just a half a second. Almost everybody thinks Adam sinned when he ate the infamous fruit.

Paul tells us otherwise:

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Read that fact loud and clear. The LAW is made for sinners.

The law, DO NOT EAT, came to Adam before he or Eve ATE.

Why? Because Adam was already a SINNER.

REALLY!!! how can one be a sinner if they have never sinned. You make no sense with this at all. Adam being the first was created by God and was God breathed. Do you think God would create a sinner, no. Even Satan was wonderfully made until sin was found in him. Made wonderfully, then came sin found in them. Do you think God gave all 613 laws before Adam

 

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Great. But the question is, does our obedience or disobedience

Let's again make this clear. The body is dead because of sin. That conclusion doesn't change by "obedience." That conclusion doesn't change by disobedience. That conclusion doesn't change by confession. That conclusion doesn't change by repentance. That conclusion doesn't change, PERIOD.

Now, let's all pretend otherwise? I think not. Let's be honest for a change.

determine whether we have and enjoy fellowship with God or not? I say it does because that's what Jesus said. Are you saying it doesn't?

I'd say if anyone thinks their dead because of sin body is anything other than what it is they are just kidding themselves. I might even say honesty before God in Christ is the basis of legitimate fellowship. I'm not about to claim my dead because of sin body something else. There is no point in doing so. I prefer to see it as Paul directed to see it because that is HONEST sight.

Are we going to tell Jesus otherwise? I think that such people are just pulling Jesus' Leg.

 

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A few days ago, JLB summarized your doctrinal beliefs in one of his posts in one of these Bible Study threads. If you recall it, did he accurately represent what you believe?

Are you kidding me? We're so far apart on this particular subject we can't even communicate.

Does JLB represent me? Uh, not even close. I don't have a position. When I read Paul and Paul says the body is dead because of sin, that is the ROCK SOLID position of an Apostle that I accept. This does not make it "my" claim or my "position?" No! It's a position of the Holy Spirit courtesy of our mutual Apostle.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I might even say honesty before God in Christ is the basis of legitimate fellowship.

Surely that's part of it.
But does being honest about your sin before God and then not entering into obedience regarding that sin, but instead choosing to wallow in it, mean we can still have fellowship with God? I say no. I'm betting you say yes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you kidding me? We're so far apart on this particular subject we can't even communicate.

Does JLB represent me? Uh, not even close. I don't have a position. When I read Paul and Paul says the body is dead because of sin, that is the ROCK SOLID position of an Apostle that I accept. This does not make it "my" claim or my "position?" No! It's a position of the Holy Spirit courtesy of our mutual Apostle.

I'll dig it up.
He just plainly restated your position, with the scriptures you use. I was wondering if he has been understanding you correctly. Can you just answer that simple question for me?

 

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REALLY!!! how can one be a sinner if they have never sinned.

I've cited these before and I'll cite them again. Jesus said the mere THOUGHT of evil is evil and defiling. Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Many on the other hand do not believe these statements of fact. They quite falsely believe that sin is only an EXTERNAL matter. It's not. Sin is in the heart. And it is verified to be in the heart by evil defiling thoughts.

Paul also tells us quite clearly that the law is made for sinners, and Adam GOT THE LAW before he or Eve did an EXTERNAL ACT of sin.

That law, do not eat, was made for sinners. That's why that LAW came to Adam.

You make no sense with this at all.

That's because you do not see this matter as Jesus shows us. Sin is internal first. And is proven by the slightest evil thought which defiles us. Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

IF we follow Jesus' line of discourse on this matter we'll see WHY the law came to Adam. Read Mark 4:15. The instant God sowed His Words of blessing on Adam, then Mark 4:15 happened as a fact. And then came the LAW immediately afterwards. Most however miss this detail and see only Adam and they utterly fail to see the entrance of the tempter into the heart of Adam.

Adam being the first was created by God and was God breathed. Do you think God would create a sinner, no.

You see only Adam. I don't see Adam that way. I see Jesus' fact of Mark 4:15 happening to Adam. Your attempt of seeing only Adam won't work when Jesus sheds HIS LIGHT of fact on the subject matter.

The law was/is made for the lawless. Adam got the LAW, do not eat. Why? Because that LAW was made for the sinner.

Even Satan was wonderfully made until sin was found in him. Made wonderfully, then came sin found in them. Do you think God gave all 613 laws before Adam

Uh, no. Satan was perfect in all "his ways." A perfect DEVIL is a devil nonetheless. Putting the word perfect in front of "in all thy ways" means a perfect devil regardless.

And wonderful? Where are you pulling that claim from? "Wonderful Satan?!" Just so you know the notion that Satan was once a HOLY ANGEL does not exist in the scriptures. It is a fairytale concoction from some camps of freewillism, but as a position it does not exist. Jesus said the devil was a murderer from the beginning, presumably his own beginning.

 

[reba]

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

vs 31 Jesus said if you put away (leave) your wife then you need to give her a written divorce. If you do this then you also need to do that.

We can not leave out any Mat 5 :32
the only reason for divorce stated in Mat 5:32 fornication