Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.

[smaller]

I have no intention of turning our study into a debate so I will simply say the reason smaller's doctrine does not resonate with me is because of at least two fundamental flaws I see it: 1) believers remain slaves to sin, and 2) just being tempted is the equivalent of sinning. It seems these are what gives strength to his doctrine.

I would appreciate recognizing that what you say my views are are not.

What I do recognize about the LAW is that there is a material/natural/flesh performance aspect, that can NOT justify the flesh.

And there is the Spirit of those same Laws, all of them, every command in the entire Bible, spelled out clearly for believers to follow in Romans 13:8-10

There is and will remain a substantial difference between these two aspects of the same LAW. A believer for example may not murder someone and still utterly fail the spiritual aspect of the same law.

As to the balance of your claims, we've done the drill often enough between us for you to know I would NEVER justify the tempter's operations in the flesh of anyone, inclusive of myself, first.

 

[GodsGrace]

Evil is always present when we try to do good as Paul speaks of that in Romans 7:21. Satan who loves to kill, steal and destroy is also ever present tempting us as his only desire is to steal us away from God. Now, if you read vs. 22-25 this is how we overcome the ever present evil. All you talk about is how the flesh is sinful and we already know that. Why not share with others how we overcome the flesh by the renewing of our inner man, the renewing of our mind that is to know the mind of Christ, Colossians chapter 3, that is made sinless before God as it is Gods righteousness that is found in the Spiritually renewed born-again follower of Christ.

Very good FHG
My thoughts exactly.
We should concentrate more on the OVERCOMING part and GIVE GLORY TO GOD.
Romans 8:37-39

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

It is not the Holy Spirit that causes "believers" to lie to themselves about their flesh.

Whatever walk we take, the flesh remains contrary to the Spirit in any cases of sight. I do not 'excuse' the flesh under the guise of emotions either. There are scriptural specifics about the flesh that show us "why" it is contrary and vile. Previously cited, at length.

Again, excusing. The flesh was contrary to the Spirit before, during and AFTER any slips or non-slips.

Conviction won't change the flesh to be NOT contrary to the Spirit either.

So, yes, this has been the typical exercise where it is shown that the flesh can not take scriptural fact. And it can not because it IS contrary to the Spirit. And utterly deceptive/corrupt to boot.

Simultaneously, I as a believer believe I'm saved. But that salvation will never extend to the contrary flesh for any reason.

There is the divided walk.

Smaller,
You're right that conviction will not change the flesh to be contrary to the spirit.
But you say that salvation will never extend to the contrary flesh for any reason.

Man is made up of body, soul and spirit.

Are you saying that we can separate our flesh from our soul and spirit now while alive?
Or are you saying when WE DIE our flesh will be separated from soul and spirit until we get our glorified body at the end of time?

Now, while we're alive we cannot separate the three. The soul does not have a "place" in the body wherein it resides. There is much debate about this. It is THROUGHOUT the body. I don't have the technical terms. Ditto for the spirit. When we die, it separates and the flesh decays.

It sounds to me like you're separating the flesh and the soul/spirit.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Smaller,

I know that you believe those who accept Christ as Lord are saved. But I thought of another aspect of being saved which is found in different verses - let's try
Ephesians 1:4-5
God predestined us as adopted sons through Jesus Christ. He predestined us to become sons.

Whose sons are we?

W

 

[Chopper]

I have no intention of turning our study into a debate so I will simply say the reason smaller's doctrine does not resonate with me is because of at least two fundamental flaws I see it: 1) believers remain slaves to sin, and 2) just being tempted is the equivalent of sinning. It seems these are what gives strength to his doctrine.

See, smaller's definition of 'sinner' is 'one who commits sin'. And certainly no one can argue that we are all sinners by that definition. But Paul speaks of 'sinner' in regard to still being 'in the flesh'--meaning one who is still locked into slavery to sin because they do not have the Spirit of God. That definition of sinner hardly applies to the believer who does in fact have the Spirit, and is, therefore, no longer a slave to sin. He may act like it, but the honest truth is he is not. But I keep hearing that the 'real' truth is I am still in slavery to sin.

The deeper the power of the truth that the believer is NOT a slave to sin (because he has the Spirit) gets inside of us, through a profound and growing love for God, the less we will be enticed by the temptations and weaknesses to sin. And, wonder of wonder, not being enticed by temptations and weaknesses just so happens to uphold the law of Moses, not violate it.

Thank you my friend. You explained what was on my heart and couldn't express. Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by Satan himself and did not sin. We all are tempted but with the Holy Spirit in us, we have a choice. We don't have to sin as a Christian.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
You're right that conviction will not change the flesh to be contrary to the spirit.
But you say that salvation will never extend to the contrary flesh for any reason.

I've pointed to the scriptures that inform us why the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit. As such I might even think believers in the Spirit would understand this, and be honest about this aspect of ourselves. And to know "why" these things are so. We're just doing surface brushing in most of these exchanges.

Jesus was much more "up in the face" of religious charlatans of his days. Here we'd get banned. If Jesus were still walking the earth, came to an assembly, and advised the pastor and all the elders this:

Mark 12:
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Jesus wouldn't last 2 min. in any assembly of His followers. They'd usher Him to the door with a request to never come back, or else.

IF we hear Jesus speaking to the churches in Rev. 2&3, the works of Satan were addressed to the whole lump of them. Believers don't tend to take to that information very kindly.

Are you saying that we can separate our flesh from our soul and spirit now while alive?

Where do you get these ideas from? I've never made any such statements.

Or are you saying when WE DIE our flesh will be separated from soul and spirit until we get our glorified body at the end of time?

Our bodies die a physical death and turn to dust. When we depart this place we return to God in Christ, in the Spirit. We really don't even know what we are going to be. That is presently hidden from us.

The whole soul conversation is another matter altogether. Worthy of it's own thread. But I don't usually participate in those conversations. They are a waste of time, generally speaking.

Now, while we're alive we cannot separate the three. The soul does not have a "place" in the body wherein it resides. There is much debate about this. It is THROUGHOUT the body. I don't have the technical terms. Ditto for the spirit. When we die, it separates and the flesh decays.

It sounds to me like you're separating the flesh and the soul/spirit.

I don't know what you think, but I do NOT recall ever having a conversation about the "soul" in the 12 or so years I've posted here. And I don't for good reasons.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

I know that you believe those who accept Christ as Lord are saved. But I thought of another aspect of being saved which is found in different verses - let's try
Ephesians 1:4-5
God predestined us as adopted sons through Jesus Christ. He predestined us to become sons.

Whose sons are we?

W

Terms such as "son" or "man" or "angels" in the scriptures are multi-functional and can be applied to different entities in different ways. Most theological novices read the term angel and they immediately think of some spiritual being dressed in white robes with wings who is holy. That is not scripture, but fantasy. So these are not easy conversations unless the people engaged have a half way decent grip on the subject matter.

As it pertains to Israel, we know that they were all termed "children of God" in the O.T. in many places. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6 come immediately to mind. And as such, yes, sons and daughters of God. Believer and unbeliever. And before anybody shoots me on the underlined portion, ALL the people of Israel that came out of Egypt over the age of 20 died in the desert because of UNBELIEF inclusive of Moses and Aaron. And I'd hardly call Moses NOT a son of God or NOT saved because of unbelief.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

ALL the people of Israel over the age of 20 died in the desert because of UNBELIEF inclusive of Moses and Aaron. And I'd hardly call Moses NOT a son of God or NOT saved because of unbelief.

Moses did NOT give up on the promises. That's why he did not lose his place in the kingdom and why we see him on the Mount of Transfiguration. Him disobeying God was not an expression of lack of faith in what God had promised to the children of Israel. It was a failure of faith in regard to his obedience. Most Christians fail to recognize the difference. It's when sin is the result of a loss of faith in God's forgiveness itself that one is in danger of being lost. Failures of faith in regard to obedience and the power of God result in chastisement and a break in fellowship with God, not in a loss of salvation.

I know lots of people, including myself, who have struggled with sin to the point of defeat, yet never let go of an inch of faith in God's forgiveness. That struggle with 'unbelief' does not result in loss of salvation. The struggle with faith in the blood itself, that is what can lead to loss of salvation. Each of us has to soberly examine ourselves to see what is motivating our disobedience so we can be careful to continue in the faith that justifies (faith in God's forgiveness, not the faith to not sin) and be saved when Christ returns, not be cast away with those who abandoned their faith in God's forgiveness, or never had it to begin with.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is and will remain a substantial difference between these two aspects of the same LAW. A believer for example may not murder someone and still utterly fail the spiritual aspect of the same law.

What's funny is, so many Christians think Christ was citing a different law and upping the requirements of righteous obedience in this New Covenant when he said not actually murdering was not enough, or that not actually committing adultery was not enough, and that somehow showed the limited and inferior aspect of the law of Moses because of it's lack of legislation of inward 'spiritual' things. Not true at all:

"17‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart" (hate being, as we know, the equivalent of murder)
"you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife"
(Matthew 5:17 NASB, Exodus 20:17 NASB respectively, parenthesis mine)

So to think the law did not legislate inward things of the heart is completely untrue. The righteousness of the Pharisees was not an inferior righteousness because it had lowered requirements to meet according to the law, but rather because it was a hypocritical and incomplete righteousness according to the law. They neglected the inward 'spiritual' aspect of the law of Moses and over emphasized the outward 'physical' ceremonial aspects of the law. But so many people think the law of Moses was discarded because it simply did not go far enough to legislate true righteousness, the righteousness of the heart. Not true at all.

"For we know that the Law is spiritual..." (Romans 7:14 NASB bold mine)

 

[smaller]

Moses did NOT give up on the promises.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

That's why he did not lose his place in the kingdom and why we see him on the Mount of Transfiguration.

There are much deeper lessons involved here. God does, by His Own Virtue, remain with the right to destroy anyone. This does not mean they are eternally lost, as Moses shows us in the example.

If we see that the flesh is contrary and against the Spirit, it is quite easy to see why and how these things can and do happen.

Him disobeying God was not an expression of lack of faith in what God had promised to the children of Israel.

We know that both Moses and Aaron failed in a specific command, which failure was the fulcrum of not entering and rather, death prior to. But this utter failure of the entire lot over the age of 20, except for 2, shows us many interesting things. One of them is that the disobedience of the flesh will not enter in to the promised land. Basic lesson.

It was a failure of faith in regard to his obedience. Most Christians fail to recognize the difference. It's when sin is the result of a loss of faith in God's forgiveness itself that one is in danger of being lost.

Unbelief by any measure is that. If we see that the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit, it is unlikely that the flesh of any can be attributed with "belief" regardless, since it is factually contrary and against the Spirit in any case of sights. Or satisfactory performances for that matter.

Failures of faith in regard to obedience and the power of God result in chastisement and a break in fellowship with God, not in a loss of salvation.

No one who is in faith avoids chastisements or tribulations. And these are not from failures to perform. They are Spiritual disciplines. Maybe lessons in subservience to God in Christ. Most believers, when they encounter them, and they do, will often not perceive why it happens. Again, if we see our factual contrariness of the flesh to the Spirit regardless of "how good" we might think we are, they are not hard to understand at all. God does always maintain the right of chastisements and tribulations on that basis alone, and these can not be avoided.

I know lots of people, including myself, who have struggled with sin to the point of defeat, yet never let go of an inch of faith in God's forgiveness. That struggle with 'unbelief' does not result in loss of salvation.

I totally agree with you on that count. That is why I don't spread the possibility of eternal damnation to my fellow believers. It is detestable to me to do so. IF I desire Gods Mercy, then what sight should I have to you or to others? Yeah, extreme Mercy.

Chopper may believe that in following the commandments, which I accept as a matter of principle in the Spiritual senses of Romans 13:8-10, that he or others will avoid adverse consequences. And that is true. But the reality is that a believer can act and do just fine and still get blindsided anyway. So there are no 'guarantees' of dodging consequences, even in good behavior.

The struggle with faith in the blood itself, that is what can lead to loss of salvation. Each of us has to soberly examine ourselves to see what is motivating our disobedience so we can be careful to continue in the faith that justifies and be saved when Christ returns, not be cast away with those who abandoned their faith in God's forgiveness, or never had it to begin with.

In my own walk of faith I eventually had to concede to the fact of Gal. 5:17 and just realize my status. In that I quit lying to myself and God about what a great lifestyle I was leading. I try very hard to be cognizant of the contrariness of my own flesh, it being against the Spirit, and my "relationship" with God in Christ. There is no relationship in lying hypocrisy, that's a certainty. I might think I can rosy up my flesh to be pleasing to God by "lifestyle" but that won't be the case of scriptural reality.

We are saved in spite of ourselves, not because of ourselves.

 

[smaller]

So to think the law did not legislate inward things of the heart is completely untrue.

I never said otherwise. What I did observe was this. That not murdering is a conformance in the external, of not doing so. Perhaps like walking across the street on a green light rather than a red light. But this is merely an exercise of the flesh. Not an exercise of faith. The exercise of external performances is not of faith. It is just a physical external compliance. This does not speak to our "internals" factor. We can be compliant on the outside and disobedient on the inside.

Jesus tells us quite clearly that the Law does contain these components:

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The O.T. does teach salvation by faith.

Paul, from the law, derived that believers are saved apart from the law and that the law itself does testify to righteousness APART from the law.

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

IF we observe the ORDER in which Jesus applied the law, we can see clearly that the law brings adverse judgments to sin in the flesh, hence judgment is secure to condemn sin in the flesh/evil present with us. This part of the law can not be changed. We are all guilty and convicted on this count.

Secondly, from this reality experience, we see our need for Gods Mercy in Christ. In order, judgment, MERCY. And finally FAITH in Gods Mercy.

We can even look at Paul and see how and why Paul was saved and the conditions he was in to obtain mercy:

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

 

[for_his_glory]

I would appreciate recognizing that what you say my views are are not.

What I do recognize about the LAW is that there is a material/natural/flesh performance aspect, that can NOT justify the flesh.

And there is the Spirit of those same Laws, all of them, every command in the entire Bible, spelled out clearly for believers to follow in Romans 13:8-10

There is and will remain a substantial difference between these two aspects of the same LAW. A believer for example may not murder someone and still utterly fail the spiritual aspect of the same law.

As to the balance of your claims, we've done the drill often enough between us for you to know I would NEVER justify the tempter's operations in the flesh of anyone, inclusive of myself, first.

What is your understanding of vs 14 especially?

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

 

[JLB]

What is your understanding of vs 14 especially?

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

"Make no provision", which is like, "do not present yourselves as slaves to sin", clearly shows us it is our responsibility, to make the effort to avoid the situations and circumstances whereby we come in contact with the lustful influences of a sinful world.

Paul said it this way to the Ephesians - nor give place to the devil.

again John says it -

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18


But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. :nod


Good word.



JLb

 

[grams]

Grams,
Thanks for adding 9. My mistake.

W

I should have also put in this one ?

eph.2
7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

That would maybe help those who are still in the old ages of belief !

They think they have to save them self ? So many do not believe in
that the cross took away all of our sins..........

Pasty present and to come ..........................

All the suffering that JESUS did for us was not in vain.......!

7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

[smaller]

What is your understanding of vs 14 especially? Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

We ALL have works of darkness to cast off.

I consider lying hypocrisy to be a couple of the more dire aspects of darkness.

If we observe, truthfully, vs. 14, we might obviously see that the flesh does have lusts. And again, in this matter we'll also see why the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit.

I don't believe in lying about that (lusts in the flesh) or being hypocritical, trying to justify lusts in the flesh, by claiming they don't exist if the external deed is not done.

That is not the case. Never has been, never will be.

It seems to be difficult for believers in general to arrive at the same conclusions Paul arrived at for himself, after salvation. Paul had illegal, against the law thoughts, Paul did evil. Paul did things he hated. Paul had evil present with him. These facts are the conditions of the flesh, which Paul did not LIE to us about (all from Romans 7) nor was he hypocritical about this state of his own flesh. So we read a line such as vs. 14 and come to the conclusion that lusts are not in the flesh?

Wrong conclusion. In that we have, in reality, been turned into lying hypocrites by the very problems of sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us, by saying it isn't so.

Paul was much more honest than that, concluding that he himself was the chief of sinners AFTER salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

Was that concluson based upon Paul's external actions? No. Paul understood that temptations/lusts/deceptions transpire INTERNALLY and that these are of the tempter. It was never a question of "just Paul."

Jesus tells us the same things in all the seed parables showing the activity of the tempter in the heart and mind in many ways. Mark 4:15 is my personal favorite because it cuts right to the chase. Jesus also tells us that the thoughts of evil are evil defiling sin. Few care to see it as Jesus sees it.

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Did Paul have flesh? Was sin indwelling his flesh? Did he claim it was not so? Did Paul claim there was no temptation in his flesh? Did Paul say that the lusts of the flesh did not exist in his own flesh?

Paul was exceptionally honest in these measures. And surely no lying hypocrite.

FOR example, here Paul says the following. And every reader will 'think' they are only in part 1, and that they DON'T HAVE part 2. And in that sight, that false sight, it is the deception in their own flesh, keeping them from seeing the obvious:

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Both are TRUE.

 

[for_his_glory]

We know the flesh is contrary to the Spirit and if you are walking in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh as we who are in Christ have crucified the flesh. We have victory over the flesh when we are aware of its sinful nature and seek to walk after the Spirit,Galatians 5:16-26.

We reap what we sow whether we reap in the flesh which brings corruption or we sow in the Spirit and reap everlasting life, Galatians 6:7, 8. We can be optimistic that we are no longer indebted to the flesh or condemned by it as we are crucified with Christ through baptism into His death. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death, Romans 8:1-17.

As a child of God we no longer mind the things of the flesh as we set our affection on things from above where Christ sits on the right hand of God. We destroy that of the flesh as it is no longer our master that brings us to the bondage of sin as we are set free from that bondage when we put on Christ and walk in His Spirit that dwells in our spirit. Love has fulfilled the law which brought us into the knowledge of sin as we no longer are slaves to the law as love has fulfilled and we are joint heirs with Christ therefore we are saved by grace. Colossians chapter 3; Ephesians 2:5.

 

[smaller]

We know the flesh is contrary to the Spirit and if you are walking in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh as we who are in Christ have crucified the flesh. We have victory over the flesh when we are aware of its sinful nature and seek to walk after the Spirit,Galatians 5:16-26.

We reap what we sow whether we reap in the flesh which brings corruption or we sow in the Spirit and reap everlasting life, Galatians 6:7, 8. We can be optimistic that we are no longer indebted to the flesh or condemned by it as we are crucified with Christ through baptism into His death. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death, Romans 8:1-17.

As a child of God we no longer mind the things of the flesh as we set our affection on things from above where Christ sits on the right hand of God. We destroy that of the flesh as it is no longer our master that brings us to the bondage of sin as we are set free from that bondage when we put on Christ and walk in His Spirit that dwells in our spirit. Love has fulfilled the law which brought us into the knowledge of sin as we no longer are slaves to the law as love has fulfilled and we are joint heirs with Christ therefore we are saved by grace. Colossians chapter 3; Ephesians 2:5.

Whatever we do "in the Spirit" this reality is neither eliminated or changed:

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

If we are "in truth" we won't lie about this reality and wind up hypocrites because of the lie. In doing that we have in fact been defeated by that same working.

Being in truth, in the Spirit, mandates truthfulness, even if the conclusion is unpleasant to our flesh.

Which is the point of the exercise. We can certainly claim the body is dead because of sin. And that is correct. But that accounting didn't eliminate the fact either.

The instant we tell ourselves we don't have that, we have in fact been defeated by it.

 

[for_his_glory]

We ALL have works of darkness to cast off.

I consider lying hypocrisy to be a couple of the more dire aspects of darkness.

If we observe, truthfully, vs. 14, we might obviously see that the flesh does have lusts. And again, in this matter we'll also see why the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit.

I don't believe in lying about that (lusts in the flesh) or being hypocritical, trying to justify lusts in the flesh, by claiming they don't exist if the external deed is not done.

That is not the case. Never has been, never will be.

It seems to be difficult for believers in general to arrive at the same conclusions Paul arrived at for himself, after salvation. Paul had illegal, against the law thoughts, Paul did evil. Paul did things he hated. Paul had evil present with him. These facts are the conditions of the flesh, which Paul did not LIE to us about (all from Romans 7) nor was he hypocritical about this state of his own flesh. So we read a line such as vs. 14 and come to the conclusion that lusts are not in the flesh?

Wrong conclusion. In that we have, in reality, been turned into lying hypocrites by the very problems of sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us, by saying it isn't so.

Paul was much more honest than that, concluding that he himself was the chief of sinners AFTER salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

Was that concluson based upon Paul's external actions? No. Paul understood that temptations/lusts/deceptions transpire INTERNALLY and that these are of the tempter. It was never a question of "just Paul."

Jesus tells us the same things in all the seed parables showing the activity of the tempter in the heart and mind in many ways. Mark 4:15 is my personal favorite because it cuts right to the chase. Jesus also tells us that the thoughts of evil are evil defiling sin. Few care to see it as Jesus sees it.

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Did Paul have flesh? Was sin indwelling his flesh? Did he claim it was not so? Did Paul claim there was no temptation in his flesh? Did Paul say that the lusts of the flesh did not exist in his own flesh?

Paul was exceptionally honest in these measures. And surely no lying hypocrite.

FOR example, here Paul says the following. And every reader will 'think' they are only in part 1, and that they DON'T HAVE part 2. And in that sight, that false sight, it is the deception in their own flesh, keeping them from seeing the obvious:

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Both are TRUE.

In Romans Chapter 7 Paul is teaching us that we are dead to the law as we are alive in God for the law gave us the knowledge of sin and brought us under bondage to the flesh. We are no longer under that bondage of sin by the letter of the law through the renewing of our mind as we are now crucified with Christ and no longer seek the desires of the flesh even though the flesh will always war against the Spirit that dwells in us.

Paul knows the law can not deliver us from sin and sums it all up in vs. 25 saying the law of God (that is love) is now in our mind/heart as we know the mind of Christ. Paul knew there was nothing good in the flesh and taught us how the flesh wars against the Spirit, but yet has no victory unless we seek out the desires of the flesh.

The flesh will always war against the Spirit that dwells in us and we have victory over the flesh when we walk in love as we will not desire the evil that the flesh brings on us. It's the Holy Spirit that dwells in our spirit that delivers us from the power of the flesh

(Cross Ref)
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[smaller]

The flesh will always war against the Spirit that dwells in us

True. That is why it's pointless to try and justify the flesh. Or more accurately what is "in" the flesh.

It is more interesting to see WHY the flesh is adversarial. It's not because of the organic compounds flesh is made of, but rather, what is IN it. If we dissected the flesh we are not going to find physical evidence of either indwelling sin or evil present with us. These are in fact adversarial spiritual workings that we have all been placed UNDER, in the flesh.

We will find no physical evidence for any of it, in the flesh.

The instant we perceive temptations/lusts/deceptions are in fact of the tempter who has been granted his hold in the flesh through these/workings, then we have pinned down the culprit, and practice separation from our adversary, thereIN. It should and WILL Spiritually repulse us to be enslaved. But to say the attempts are not there is fruitless. Indwelling sin and evil present with us in the flesh PROVE the attempts are ever present in the flesh.

How many are willing to justify our adversary? Many more will be led to deny it happens because of that adversary working in their own flesh. Or even worse, to justify that adversarial working therein by denying they have it.

Eph. 6:12

Some will see the dilemma. Most won't.

 

[for_his_glory]

Whatever we do "in the Spirit" this reality is neither eliminated or changed:

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

If we are "in truth" we won't lie about this reality and wind up hypocrites because of the lie. In doing that we have in fact been defeated by that same working.

Being in truth, in the Spirit, mandates truthfulness, even if the conclusion is unpleasant to our flesh.

Which is the point of the exercise. We can certainly claim the body is dead because of sin. And that is correct. But that accounting didn't eliminate the fact either.

The instant we tell ourselves we don't have that, we have in fact been defeated by it.

Yes, the reality is this flesh is sinful and I think I can say we all can agree on that as Satan will always tempt us to sin just as he tempted Jesus. What I believe you are not seeing is that Jesus has victory over evil as refusing those temptations of Satan found in Matthew Chapter 4:1-11. In the words of Jesus: Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Jesus also said in His words: Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

The fact is that we are sinners saved by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:4-10. The fact is that if we are truly walking in the Spirit and guard ourselves from the temptations of the flesh then we will not seek the desires of the flesh, Galatians 5:15; Matthew 26:41.