Bible Study Sola scripture ?

[GodsGrace]

Bingo! That's my point. The same authority was present in the church of the living God before the Apostles lived as was present while they lived and as is present after they lived (now). God!

Yes. Chessman, but YOU were alluding to the fact that WE have authority as God has.
If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

I was saying that Jesus had authority as God, He passed that authority on to the Apostles, they passed it on to elders and Deacons. ALL OF US do NOT have authority to pass authority down to others. THIS is my point. I, for instance, do not have authority to teach knowledgeable adults because I'm not qualified.

I'm not sure why you said that immediately after the Apostles died there was no Bible (God's word, God's authority) yet. Sure there was.

There was a bible right after the Apostles died? Do you mean the O.T.?
But there wasn't a N.T. bible.
Do you not agree?
There were letters circulating, but not ONE book everyone could refer to.


Did Paul not write God's word into his letters before he died, for example?
John's revelation of Christ completed the Bible. But God's word and thus His authority was most certainly present prior to John's death. That's my point.

100% agreed.

click to expand

 

[GodsGrace]

Just a thought.
Would it be possible to catch a ride to a church that you liked? Maybe a train?
It's either that or possibly starting a small group of like-minded believers.

John,
I could drive about 45 minutes to a church down in the city, which I believe you know what it is.
I can't do that every Sunday. I've been there a few times and I like it.
It's inside the Wall, no parking. It's a long story. They were supposed to open a church of theirs up near me but they never did.

There's a small protestant church up here but it's too weird for me. They believe you could get saved after death. I can't go there.

Two JW's. Go figure.

A small group? Good idea. I've had bible studies in my home. The last one was about 1 1/2 years and was on Mathew. They kind of dwindle down because people here don't understand WHY we should study the bible.

Thanks for the ideas. I'm here. This is good for me and it helps me to remember things I'm worried I might forget...

 

[GodsGrace]

No they don't!

Each one has a person who is authoritative.
They have doctrine.

I mean there is not ONE authority that rules over all protestant churches, which is why there are so many.
Each one was started because of some little nuance of belief that didn't agree with the original one, etc.
So today we have hundreds , if not thousands, of little protestant churches.

The RCC has authority. The magesterium which is comprised of the Pope and Bishops.

The Orthodox church has authority because it is given to ONE person.

This is what I meant. I know that each protestant church has authority over itself.
I attended a Nazarene church - it's authoritative, administrative office was in Ohio. But it only applied to the Nazarene Church.

 

[JohnDB]

John,
I could drive about 45 minutes to a church down in the city, which I believe you know what it is.
I can't do that every Sunday. I've been there a few times and I like it.
It's inside the Wall, no parking. It's a long story. They were supposed to open a church of theirs up near me but they never did.

There's a small protestant church up here but it's too weird for me. They believe you could get saved after death. I can't go there.

Two JW's. Go figure.

A small group? Good idea. I've had bible studies in my home. The last one was about 1 1/2 years and was on Mathew. They kind of dwindle down because people here don't understand WHY we should study the bible.

Thanks for the ideas. I'm here. This is good for me and it helps me to remember things I'm worried I might forget...

Best way to keep the groups going is to give the different attendees some kind of responsibility. (Mint/lemon water for drinking, napkins, or something to munch on, portions of devotionals)

It tends to help if people feel that they are not only wanted but needed.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Jim,
Great post.
(I like the joke)

I'd like to say that we must distinguish between.

SOLA SCRIPTURA
We take the bible to be our authority. A supreme authority is necessary and we all must agree that it has to be the bible. The ECF had the letters being circulated and based their theology on those and on writings of previous fathers, then, finally, the bible (N.T.) was available and we can now refer to that.

SOLO SCRIPTURA
A person sits at home with a bible, reads through it and makes his own theology.
Apparently being taught by the Holy Spirit. It's difficult though, at times, if it's the Holy Spirit or our very own thoughts. This cannot be determined by the solo scriptura person since he has nothing to compare his beliefs to.

THIS is a very dangerous practice.

We are told not to forsake the assembling of ourselves.
The letters to Timothy tell how the church holds truth, not each individual person.
Also, God may reveal a personal truth FOR ME ONLY. This is not to be taught or shared since it is not for others.

1 Timothy 4:7

P.S.
Sola scriptura is practiced by a church.

That second definition is a twisting of Sola Scriptura and is not true.

 

[Nathan]

Your third paragraph is making the same objection I was.

You could reread my post, but it's not worth it.
If I'm lukewarm, do you suppose God will spit me out?

It was not directed to you. I don't know your heart. I can say that whoever is lukewarm when He returns will be spit out. I don't hope that on anyone, but understand it will happen. My prayer is God will use me to speak to those who are.

There is a reason why He said He would rather a person be hot or cold. A person who doesn't have one foot in the world and one in the truth is able to clearly see the truth instead of convincing themselves what the do know is truth.

 

[th1b.taylor]

A distant relative of mine was in church in my hometown one Sunday some years ago.
He was complaining about health and I told him God would help him to be strong.
He asked if I really believed that. We had just been in church together.
So I asked HIM, did HE believe it. Did HE believe in life after death.
He said NO. So I asked him why he went to Mass. He said because he was used to it.
Many go for that reason --- but maybe the day is coming soon when only believers will be in ANY church.

That would really break the hearts of the Numbers Preacher.

 

[Nathan]

Actually your allusion to the letter in Revelations is telling. Hot was a hot springs spa that was said to have medicinal properties. These springs were on top of a River valley. The river was of snow melt from the mountains and very cold as it went to thousands of farms to nourish them.
The city itself (as most Roman cities did) had public water supplies. But the mineral content was high and the geothermal activity heated it a little so that when you drank it you felt queasey.

So...If maybe you went to church on Sunday mornings... Especially Sunday School you might have not used this analogy. You would have learned that nourishing and/or healing are things God expects us to do. Sitting at home just to drink our own koolaide is what makes God sick.

I assure you I do not sit at home drinking my own koolaide.

I know what the context of the letter to the church is, and that is of a people who thought they knew the truth, convinced themselves they knew the truth, and rejected the truth Christ was offering them. They view themselves as clothed and seeing the truth - while they are unaware of their nakedness and blindness.

Traditions did the same thing to the Pharisee's in Jesus' day.

 

[Nathan]

Each one has a person who is authoritative.
They have doctrine.

I mean there is not ONE authority that rules over all protestant churches, which is why there are so many.
Each one was started because of some little nuance of belief that didn't agree with the original one, etc.
So today we have hundreds , if not thousands, of little protestant churches.

The RCC has authority. The magesterium which is comprised of the Pope and Bishops.

The Orthodox church has authority because it is given to ONE person.

This is what I meant. I know that each protestant church has authority over itself.
I attended a Nazarene church - it's authoritative, administrative office was in Ohio. But it only applied to the Nazarene Church.

There is actually only one authority over all the Church. That is the Head. He is The Christ.

So many denominations have "leaders" who think they are the head of their body. There is only one Head, and many members.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Bill,
I think of this often after coming to this forum.
I've heard such strange ideas here that I never heard before.
These persons say that these ideas are given to them by the Holy Spirit.
How can this be?
I believe one should choose a church he feels comfortable in and that teaches the MAIN doctrines he believes in and can bear to listen to during a sermon.
A church will always guide a person.
I don't think we're supposed to make up our own doctrine, which is what some people do.

Let's take eternal security for instance. A favorite topic here.
Some believe salvation cannot be lost.
Some believe salvation can be lost.
But each group can find a church that is a bible believing church and that will guide them.

There are others, instead, who invent their own theology and this I find to be very damaging to Christianity, also because they tell others of these strange ideas and the others can be turned away from our beautiful faith.

Comment?

There is a great divide in the Church today over authority. You and I differ on OSAS and yet we do not fight about, we are friends and understand that both positions can be supported with Scripture. (Anyway, I enjoy explaining to folks that God will jerk the knot out of all our tails when we get home.) God left us with the Users Manual and just as we are impatient we skip through to different parts and never read it from start to finish.

It any person does that, anything we can dream up can be proven and made to appear as truth. The Mormons, with their Holy Underwear and the JWs that deny Jesus, did just that. I try to live my life by the rules found in scripture because I accepted Jesus as my Savior, I also accepted His Word as the Final Court of Arbitration in all matters. I am called Weird and a Bible Thumper a bit but young Preachers come over for advise and to debate points of scripture with me because I do my very best to walk the talk.

When we create our own theology and it disagrees with all of the Bible when read as it should be, front to back, it is not truth. The rule I insist is, absolutely, required cannot be ignored. But people insist on jerking scripture out of context and that cannot be done and be scriptural. That is, exactly, how the Atheist can demonstrate that there are conflicting statements in the Bible. Read in context, there is no conflict but who can explain that to the hardened mind?

 

[Nathan]

((me again))

I'm tempted to go Catholic because of tradition and unity. I get that this pope has softened up on some things, but it seems to me (complete non-catholic, clearly) that he's just emphasizing a different element of Catholic tradition.

I dunno. I didn't get genuinely saved until some serious Pentecostal intervention. They're great people, but sometimes I think there's some flaws there. But then again...where to turn? The PCUSA I grew up with? Ummmm...ok...

The RCC seems to be a massive force for good in this world. Because of tradition and the hierarchy, they can't change the church to suit the whims of a given age. That's --huge--. Just using PCUSA as an example, they've discarded Scripture in place of worldly wisdom very recently, and because they're "mainline," people who call them out on in are called "intolerant," etc. Protestant churches lack the tradition and authority structure to prevent things like that from happening.

I have to tell you, from the bottom of my heart, that joining yourself to the RCC would be one of the most disastrous mistakes you can make.

I have nothing against the members of the RCC, but the leadership does not teach truth and you could easily be led astray. Be very cautious of this.

 

[Nathan]

Actually your allusion to the letter in Revelations is telling. Hot was a hot springs spa that was said to have medicinal properties. These springs were on top of a River valley. The river was of snow melt from the mountains and very cold as it went to thousands of farms to nourish them.
The city itself (as most Roman cities did) had public water supplies. But the mineral content was high and the geothermal activity heated it a little so that when you drank it you felt queasey.

So...If maybe you went to church on Sunday mornings... Especially Sunday School you might have not used this analogy. You would have learned that nourishing and/or healing are things God expects us to do. Sitting at home just to drink our own koolaide is what makes God sick.

Let me ask you this(while I sit here waiting to go into my local church).

Do you think these people were chastised by Christ for not being cold or hot because they were walking in truth and were just accidentily missing the mark?

Or do you see that they were off mark because they were walking in their own truth and own way, thinking they knew what the truth was?

The point I was making, the one Christ was saying, is they had one foot in the world thinking of what is good(cool water for the people to drink?), and one foot in the truth of God(hot water flowing from the spring?).

Instead of being led by the Spirit to do the works of God, they decided that because they had received faith and the Spirit, they could walk in their own light and truth. Instead of a natural flow, to use your example, they were diverting the water through their own works.

What's important to understand is they actually thought they were doing the right thing. That's precisely why Christ wrote to them. To tell them He has not cast them off yet and to tell them to return to Him. To turn from their thoughts to His.

 

[chessman]

Each one has a person who is authoritative.

Nope. The people in Protestant houses know that the living God, is the authority. Always was and always will be. It was one of the many differences they protested against Rome and re-formed back to the original Scriptures' teaching. Using the relevant sections of the Bible that taught who has all authority on Earth (Jesus, God, God's Word).

The RCC has authority. The magesterium which is comprised of the Pope and Bishops.

It makes claims of authority its magisterium does not have (such as to forgive sins or grant saving merit to people (dead or alive)). Each time a pope dies (or feels he's to old to be an effective 'authority' anymore) who's their authority on Earth? In Protestant churches, the living God is the authority. Even on Earth.

The Orthodox church has authority because it is given to ONE person.

All authority on Earth was given to Jesus who is still living (through the Holy Spirit) in churches today (that is churches that are not dead). He's not past down His authority to anyone. To include ONE person such as pope or primate. Why would He? He's not dead.

I know you referenced Matt 28:19 to support your claim that Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles as He ascended. Problem is, that verse no more says He gave them authority than Gen 1:1 does. In fact the complete sentence (to include verses 19- 20) completely contradicts that notion.

First, verse 19 is a command to go, not a relinquishing of authority. Secondly He specifically says He will be with them always.

Who told you that anyone other than the living God has authority on Earth?

Matthew 28:19-20 (NASB) Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”​

 

[GodsGrace]

Just a thought.
Would it be possible to catch a ride to a church that you liked? Maybe a train?
It's either that or possibly starting a small group of like-minded believers.

Oh wait.
Did you say catch a ride?
Are you kidding??
I've been driving stick shift here since I was 20.
Where you wanna go??
I'll take ya!!
From the mountain,
to the prairie (called the plain here)
to the ocean (called the sea here)
LOL

 

[GodsGrace]

Best way to keep the groups going is to give the different attendees some kind of responsibility. (Mint/lemon water for drinking, napkins, or something to munch on, portions of devotionals)

It tends to help if people feel that they are not only wanted but needed.

LOL
I used to make tea and cookies/cake.
We'd share in bringing the goods.
I got to feeling like that's all we were there for after a while.
However, the ladies did join in with their ideas, so maybe not.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is actually only one authority over all the Church. That is the Head. He is The Christ.

So many denominations have "leaders" who think they are the head of their body. There is only one Head, and many members.

Yeah. I agree.
The Church.
But not the church.

And everybody attends the church.
I don't see all Christians huddling together at my local supermarket...

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a great divide in the Church today over authority. You and I differ on OSAS and yet we do not fight about, we are friends and understand that both positions can be supported with Scripture. (Anyway, I enjoy explaining to folks that God will jerk the knot out of all our tails when we get home.) God left us with the Users Manual and just as we are impatient we skip through to different parts and never read it from start to finish.

It any person does that, anything we can dream up can be proven and made to appear as truth. The Mormons, with their Holy Underwear and the JWs that deny Jesus, did just that. I try to live my life by the rules found in scripture because I accepted Jesus as my Savior, I also accepted His Word as the Final Court of Arbitration in all matters. I am called Weird and a Bible Thumper a bit but young Preachers come over for advise and to debate points of scripture with me because I do my very best to walk the talk.

When we create our own theology and it disagrees with all of the Bible when read as it should be, front to back, it is not truth. The rule I insist is, absolutely, required cannot be ignored. But people insist on jerking scripture out of context and that cannot be done and be scriptural. That is, exactly, how the Atheist can demonstrate that there are conflicting statements in the Bible. Read in context, there is no conflict but who can explain that to the hardened mind?

Well Bill,
you're right. We disagree on OSAS (although I think we'll both make it to the end so it's the same)
but we agree on everything else.

Even all of the above.
The bible IS the final authority when read all together as one complete thought.
I speak of the N.T. --- I should mention this sometimes.

Your friend in Christ

 

[Betty]

Perhaps the problem with the original question is the title itself, "Sola Scripture." What about studying the scriptures in Christ with Christ directing and instructing? That implies relationship, not "sola." or on our own.


Personally, because of the numerous examples in the scriptures, I believe that there is still true discipleship, but it has little to do with being a follower of man. It has everything to do with being a follower of Christ. "Take up your cross and follow me."

Peter ministered, and also demonstrated the Power of Christ in Him. Paul did as well. The POWER of Christ was evident in them.

Interesting that Paul said:

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


There's a point in the scriptures where Jesus is speaking to the scribes and pharisees where He says:
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.


They were making disciples unto themselves.

Do you think this is still happening (in some cases) today.?


Paul always pointed to Christ. In Ephesians 4, Paul speaks of the body of Christ and expounds on Christ being the head of each individual in the body. Thus, all in Christ will speak the same things. He expounds on there being one Lord, one faith and one baptism and, "one God the Father who is above all and through all and in you all." Then he speaks about the different parts of the body, and the gifts given to each for the edifying of one another for the "perfecting of the saints, until all parts of the body come into the unity of the faith..." It's a clear picture of growing and maturing in Christ as individuals and as a body. Paul also gives examples of the way that is not right, not walking in the vanity of our their own minds because of ignorance, having their understanding darkened, and giving their own-selves up to living a life that is not pleasing to God.

Which I would say, is the true job of a Preacher.


Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Discipleship has to do with pointing people to Christ, and seeking, knocking and asking HIM for the true revelation that we can only comprehend when the vail is removed from our eyes through Christ. Just like the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, whom, after Jesus broke the bread and blessed it and disappeared from their sight, said, "Did our hearts not burn within us as He opened up the scriptures to us along the way."

If the veil is removed from the eyes of those in Christ, wouldn't that imply that everyone in Christ would see clearly in the scriptures as they seek it out in and with Christ?


There are so many scriptures throughout the word that point to true discipleship.


Psalms 25:4 Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.


Psalms 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.


Psalms 25:9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.


Psalms 25:12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.


Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


True discipleship is being taught and receiving revelation through Christ.


Jesus Himself confirmed this when He said:


Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
And when He said, "...If you continue in My word, you are My disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."


Humility, coming to Him like a child, (That means, letting HIM answer and not jumping to our own conclusion, but waiting on Jesus.) Seeking answers directly from Him, asking Him questions, and continuing in His word are all parts of being a disciple and making disciples.

Jesus taught the disciples these things, the very things they taught. Even after He ascended into heaven, Jesus was still with them and in them, ministering through them, and those who matured in Christ, went on to do the same, always beginning with the remission of sin through repentance, and belief in Christ Jesus.

Those who joined and were in Christ, were expected to mature and have the same relationship in Christ that the very first disciples had. Jesus taught them.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have to tell you, from the bottom of my heart, that joining yourself to the RCC would be one of the most disastrous mistakes you can make.

I have nothing against the members of the RCC, but the leadership does not teach truth and you could easily be led astray. Be very cautious of this.

Nathan,
How does the RCC lead anyone astray?
Be specific.
I never did understand this.

Because you or I may not agree with some doctrine they teach, 90% of it is correct, just like any other denomination.

What could be so disasterous??

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps the problem with the original question is the title itself, "Sola Scripture." What about studying the scriptures in Christ with Christ directing and instructing? That implies relationship, not "sola." or on our own.


Personally, because of the numerous examples in the scriptures, I believe that there is still true discipleship, but it has little to do with being a follower of man. It has everything to do with being a follower of Christ. "Take up your cross and follow me."

Peter ministered, and also demonstrated the Power of Christ in Him. Paul did as well.


There's a point in the scriptures where Jesus is speaking to the scribes and pharisees where He says:
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.


They were making disciples unto themselves.

Do you think this is still happening (in some cases) today.?


Paul always pointed to Christ. In Ephesians 4, Paul speaks of the body of Christ and expounds on Christ being the head of each individual in the body. Thus, all in Christ will speak the same things. He expounds on there being one Lord, one faith and one baptism and, "one God the Father who is above all and through all and in you all." Then he speaks about the different parts of the body, and the gifts given to each for the edifying of one another for the "perfecting of the saints, until all parts of the body come into the unity of the faith..." It's a clear picture of growing and maturing in Christ as individuals and as a body. Paul also gives examples of the way that is not right, not walking in the vanity of our their own minds because of ignorance, having their understanding darkened, and giving their own-selves up to living a life that is not pleasing to God.

Which I would say, is the true job of a Preacher.


Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Discipleship has to do with pointing people to Christ, and seeking, knocking and asking HIM for the true revelation that we can only comprehend when the vail is removed from our eyes through Christ. Just like the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, whom, after Jesus broke the bread and blessed it and disappeared from their sight, said, "Did our hearts not burn within us as He opened up the scriptures to us along the way."

If the veil is removed from the eyes of those in Christ, wouldn't that imply that everyone in Christ would see clearly in the scriptures as they seek it out in and with Christ?


There are so many scriptures throughout the word that point to true discipleship.


Psalms 25:4 Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.


Psalms 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.


Psalms 25:9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.


Psalms 25:12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.


Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


True discipleship is being taught and receiving revelation through Christ.


Jesus Himself confirmed this when He said:


Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
And when He said, "...If you continue in My word, you are My disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."


Humility, coming to Him like a child, (That means, letting HIM answer and not jumping to our own conclusion, but waiting on Jesus.) Seeking answers directly from Him, asking Him questions, and continuing in His word are all parts of being a disciple and making disciples.

Jesus taught the disciples these things, the very things they taught. Even after He ascended into heaven, Jesus was still with them and in them, ministering through them, and those who matured in Christ, went on to do the same, always beginning with the remission of sin through repentance, and belief in Christ Jesus.

Those who joined and were in Christ, were expected to mature and have the same relationship in Christ that the very first disciples had. Jesus taught them.

I have to leave for a while...

SOLA does not mean ON OUR OWN.
It means to depend ONLY on scripture.

What you're talking about is SOLO Scriptura, which is not a good idea because it IS studied ON OUR OWN.