Bible Study Sola scripture ?

[Jim Parker]

But right now they have a Pope that is embracing Islam as equal to Christianity and I will never go there.

I am baffled as to how the same people who elected Benedict have now elected Francis.
The guy is a walking catastrophe.
It's as if they picked Jerry Brown!

iakov the fool

 

[Christ_empowered]

Sometimes, I"m tempted to do RCIA and turn Catholic. I like Dorothy Day (I think she's a saint now...).

Protestantism seems to be a mess. Its not just the obvious fragments and factions, either. Ever read Baran research? Even a lot of church going Protestants are thoroughly worldly in their/our understanding of salvation, Jesus, sin, etc. For all the church goers in the USA, something like 9% of the total population has a genuinely Biblical, Protestant worldview.

I guess I"m saying...Protestantism has done some great things. Max Weber, the German sociologist, even wrote a book on Protestantism and the rise of (American-style) capitalism, which has definitely been a mostly good thing. But...I'm wondering if maybe the catholic church is the way to go. I mean, they seem to be the 1 Biggest force against all the ugliness of (post)modern society. I'm fascinated by what little I know of social justice, which I understand is something a lot of more conservative Protestants aren't so fond of...I just think its great that the catholics have a faith that can engage people, communities, entire societies, at all levels.

 

[Nathan]

I have no scripture for this.
It is ONLY my own thought and I present it as such.

Jesus had not begun His ministry yet, but He knew He was close to it and was ready.
Perhaps He had to emotionally detach Himself from His mother?
He said that those that did the will of His Father in heaven are His mother and brother and sister...
Mathew 12:48

Jesus would also be His mother's Savior.
Perhaps He couldn't consider her as a mother anymore, as a child would,
but as a woman who needed salvation.
He called her Woman, not out of disrespect, but in a loving manner so as to disassociate Himself from her to be able to go out and begin His ministry since He knew very well how it would end.

Comments?

I wouldn't think that per say. It was not the first time He "disassociated" Himself. Remember when someone came up asking a question about His mother and brothers?

It was compassion because He saw her in pain. Jesus fulfilled the law in every way, one of which is to honor His earthly parents.

As you said, there was no disrespect at all.

 

[Nathan]

Sorry Chessman. I don't agree.

Jesus left the authority with the Apostles.
The Apostles left the authority with Bishops.
Acts 1:21-26

In Acts 20:17 we see that already there were elders in the new church.
The books of Timothy demonstrate that there were those who were to preach.

Not everyone is authorized or has the gift of teaching.
A person must study many years if he is to teach the bible.
WE are not teachers.

If we have a personal revelation, it should be kept as such.
Otherwise, we must adhere to theologians and what they glean from the bible and how it is to the advantage of how we live our lives.

We are not allowed to believe whatever we want to believe. We must adhere to what Jesus wanted us to know from His preaching. Too many strange doctrine are introduced because some are taught by the HolySpirit.

If this is true and correct and there is only ONE Holy Spirit, why are such different ideas reached??

I don't understand the reason for your question on John.
I'm not trying to trick you, so there's no reason for you to turn the question around as Jesus did.

Wondering, this is dangerous. How do you know the one person to another person teaching was not twisted over the years? All it takes is one person to say something a little off. Have you ever played the game where a bunch of people stand in a circle and then a phrase is passed around? It never gets to the end the same. Look at Peter. Paul had to reprimand him.

One of the promises of the Spirit is that He would lead us into truth. The same Spirit that was in them is in us also. That is a promise from God. It was written this way;

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

There is a reason He did this. So that it would not be like it was before when people were lead astray by false teaching. If it comes from God it cannot be false. You don't have to believe what anyone on this earth says. If it is truth, His Spirit will let you know. It's a promise. As sure as salvation.

 

[Nathan]

If it were not for the persons of that time, there would be NO Christianity!

I assure you that only God carries on Christianity. He needs no help from men. Maybe you did not mean it the way it reads, but the people did not carry Christianity - Christianity carried the people.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm fascinated by what little I know of social justice,

"Social Justice" is a term that communists use to disguise their intentions of forced wealth redistribution. (That's the government taking money from people who worked for it and giving it to other people who didn't.)

If you take a look at what the "social justice warriors" are demanding, you will find that they want to be given free stuff (education, housing, health care, food, cell phones, abortions, trans-gender surgeries, etc.) and they want somebody else to pay for all of it. They claim that people have a "human right" to these things that other people will have to pay for. That's the same as saying they have a human right to a piece of your paycheck.

If you want to know something about real social justice, read On Social Justice by St. Basil the Great. It's a small collection of sermons and the title is not his. It was given to the book by a modern day translator.

Don't confuse "Liberation Theology" with Christianity.

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

All authority has been given to Jesus
Mathew 28:18

True. And Jesus, through the Holy Spirit is with us every day. Matt 28:20, John 20:22

So who has authority now, God or us?

 

[Jim Parker]

How do you know the one person to another person teaching was not twisted over the years? All it takes is one person to say something a little off.

It is not a difficult task to compare the "twisted" teaching to what has been taught everywhere and at all times. That is the process by which the great councils found the teachings of Arius and Nestorius and the rest of the heretics to be corrupt.

Have you ever played the game where a bunch of people stand in a circle and then a phrase is passed around? It never gets to the end the same.

False analogy.
The two processes have absolutely no points of commonality.
The phrase is whispered from one person to the next.
Teaching is done openly, in public, where anyone can hear it and challenge it.

Look at Peter. Paul had to reprimand him.

And the question was brought before the church leaders at Jerusalem who considered both sides and came to a conclusion. The Church handled it quite easily.

One of the promises of the Spirit is that He would lead us into truth.

And the Spirit can lead a person to truth but won't force him to accept it. That's why we have tens of thousands of denominations, sects, factions, etc. all of whom will swear that the Holy Spirit led them into their particular "truth" which are be in direct conflict of "truths" that the same Holy Spirit had allegedly let others into. The only way to resolve all these "truths" all being at once true and contradictory is that the Holy Spirit is either confused or a joker. (And I'm not going THERE!)

There is a reason He did this. So that it would not be like it was before when people were lead astray by false teaching. If it comes from God it cannot be false. You don't have to believe what anyone on this earth says. If it is truth, His Spirit will let you know. It's a promise. As sure as salvation.

That is exactly why the Church convened the 7 great councils: to determine whether a teaching was from God or from the individual's imagination. They did not assume, as you seem to, that any individual was fully capable of accurately hearing from the Holy Spirit. They tested every doctrine to insure it agreed with the "memoirs of the apostles" (Gospels), the apostles letters and the apostolic tradition.

The churches which stuck to this process have the same teachings as the Church had almost 2000 years ago. They are called Orthodox, Coptic, and Syrian.

(They are so averse to change that they joke about it.
Q: How many Orthodox does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Change???)

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

I am floored at the idea that every believer does not have the truth of God in them. We might not all be able to teach it, or preach it, but we can all know it and understand it - independent from other human beings. Its possible. Its true.

Yes, God desires us to learn from each other - to use our gifts for the body - but there is a time coming(and seems has already arrived) when men are going to be going crazy trying to draw people away to their own doctrines. The truth is in the Bible, and the Bible speaks of Jesus who is the Christ.

I disassociated myself from every denomination years ago when I realized what was happening. From then until now I have learned from the Spirit Himself, and have gleaned from others who are walking in truth also. There is not one religious group in this day and age that is walking in absolute truth. I am sure of it. But just as sure as I am of that, I am equally sure that among the groups there are many who are walking in truth.

Christ Himself guaranteed this and I believe it. I take everything I hear, from anyone I know, and hold it up to His light.

How have we come from relying on the Spirit in us to guide us, to relying on mere mortal men to guide us, is beyond me. I can only assume that it came from the same thought process the believers in Corinth had - each following the person of their choice rather than the Spirit.

 

[Nathan]

And the Spirit can lead a person to truth but won't force him to accept it. That's why we have tens of thousands of denominations, sects, factions, etc. all of whom will swear that the Holy Spirit led them into their particular "truth" which are be in direct conflict of "truths" that the same Holy Spirit had allegedly let others into. The only way to resolve all these "truths" all being at once true and contradictory is that the Holy Spirit is either confused or a joker. (And I'm not going THERE!)

iakov the fool

The analogy is true. You can change it by having multiple groups of people in different rooms, and each group goes to the next and passes on the phrase. The outcome will be the same. If there is nothing to hold the phrase up to in the end, then there is no way to know what was originally said. We have the original phrases, and should always hold up what we are taught to them.

There is a difference between being led to truth and being taught it. If the person is seeking truth, in truth, then there is no way the Spirit is not going to give it. The reason the fractions come is from people wanting others to believe their truth rather than desiring the individual to seek it for themselves. That is why we have the "religious sects" we do today. If you don't agree with them then they shun you.

Why? Because men desire to be looked on as knowing more. Its a pride issue. They really do think they have the truth or else they would not teach it as such. But the minute you disagree they look at you as 'uneducated' and not able to know what they do because they are the ones with the truth.

Only the Spirit is the truth, and only He has the power to give it to us. Jesus said that we would know the truth, and the truth will set us free. I am convinced that He was not insinuating that the truth would have to come through men.

1 Corinthians 2:13 - And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

Galatians 1:12 - For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

I am floored at the idea that every believer does not have the truth of God in them.

I am too!
Who said that?

but there is a time coming(and seems has already arrived) when men are going to be going crazy trying to draw people away to their own doctrines.

That started almost immediately.
Paul had to address it in his letters. (Gal: "Keep law and be circumcised to be saved"; Thessalonians: "The resurrection already happened and you missed it.")

I disassociated myself from every denomination years ago when I realized what was happening.

Ah. So you separated yourself from the body of Christ and now you're a "Lone Ranger" for Jesus. The Sola Scriptura says not to do that.
Heb 10:23-25 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
But I understand your position.
I know of many people who have given up trying to find a "real" church among the plethora of family businesses masquerading as churches or churches where every other sermon is on tithing but that don't have and ministry to the poor.
Thy an Orthodox church. They don't do "new winds of doctrine."

How have we come from relying on the Spirit in us to guide us, to relying on mere mortal men to guide us, is beyond me.

It because what you or I think we have been shown by the Holy Spirit is not the basis of truth.
The CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1Ti 3:15)
It is the leaders of the Church who have been given the deposit of truth which they are consecrated by God to passed to the next generation of leadership. ( 2Ti 2:2) That is what is meant by "Apostolic Succession." The deposit of apostolic teaching is passed on to each successive bishop. (Presiding elder of a congregation; overseer)

People who think that they are able to discern the meaning of scripture better than the tens of thousands of legitimate Bible Scholars need to get their arrogance level checked. Individual interpretations are the source of every error and heresy that has come down the pike since before the Gospels were even written.

That;s why Paul told the Corinthian church that every prophesy is to be judged. (1Co 14:29)

You have (or will) see absolutely stupid things posted in Christian forums by people who are 100% sure that the Holy Ghost showed it to them.

That's why the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, not the individual.

(harrUMPH!! )


Iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

The analogy is true. You can change it by having multiple groups of people in different rooms, and each group goes to the next and passes on the phrase.

That's not analogous to the process either.
That's not what happened.
And it's not your original false analogy.
It is not a difficult task to compare every new doctrine to what has been taught everywhere and at all times because there are written records of all previous teaching. Nobody did anything behind closed doors or whispered into neighbors ears.
I gave you the example of the council at Jerusalem. Was that done by "multiple groups of people in different rooms"?
The stuff you're coming up with has no relationship to the historical process.
You're just building strawman after strawman that have nothing in common with reality.

There is a difference between being led to truth and being taught it. If the person is seeking truth, in truth, then there is no way the Spirit is not going to give it.

And you missed the point AGAIN!
It's not the Holy Spirit's abilities that are in question. It is the abilities of the individual who imagines that he is better able to hear the Holy Spirit than the previous tens of thousands of REAL scholars who proceeded him.
Where do you think Arianism came from in the 3rd century?
Where do you think that Calvinism came from 1500 years after the apostles?
Where do you think the "Rapture" and "Dispensationalism" came from 1800 years after the apostles?
EVERY HERESY has come to us from people claiming to know better than the Church because of divine revelation. (Like Joseph Smith)

The reason the fractions come is from people wanting others to believe their truth rather than desiring the individual to seek it for themselves.

And where do they say that truth comes from?
The funny papers?
Facebook?
Or was it by the alleged inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

 

[chessman]

The CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1Ti 3:15)

You keep misquoting this "proof Text':

1 Timothy 3:15 (NASB) but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
​

Every church that has the Living God leading its house is the pillar and support of the truth. Which is why Paul thru the Holy Spirit of God wrote it in Scripture.

 

[Nathan]

Ah. So you separated yourself from the body of Christ and now you're a "Lone Ranger" for Jesus. The Sola Scriptura says not to do that.
Heb 10:23-25 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
But I understand your position.
I know of many people who have given up trying to find a "real" church among the plethora of family businesses masquerading as churches or churches where every other sermon is on tithing but that don't have and ministry to the poor.
Thy an Orthodox church. They don't do "new winds of doctrine."

It because what you or I think we have been shown by the Holy Spirit is not the basis of truth.
The CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1Ti 3:15)
It is the leaders of the Church who have been given the deposit of truth which they are consecrated by God to passed to the next generation of leadership. ( 2Ti 2:2) That is what is meant by "Apostolic Succession." The deposit of apostolic teaching is passed on to each successive bishop. (Presiding elder of a congregation; overseer)

People who think that they are able to discern the meaning of scripture better than the tens of thousands of legitimate Bible Scholars need to get their arrogance level checked. Individual interpretations are the source of every error and heresy that has come down the pike since before the Gospels were even written.

No, I have not separated myself from the Body. Christs body is alive and well, I am sure of it. No "lone ranger" here. Interesting you say that, I have heard that from others who disagreed with what I have had to say. The lone ranger took matters into his own hand. I simply am taking matters, of my salvation, out of the hands of other men. I read through the links you posted about the Orthodox church. They are no different than the others, except having a different set of beliefs. I do have a question about them - do they really believe Mary was without sin the entire time she was alive? As in, she never sinned? I got that idea when reading through several of the different links, and even tried to google it, and I kept on coming up with that's what they honestly believe.

No, the Church is not the foundation. Christ is, and His Church is being built upon it. His Body is a pillar of truth, of which The Spirit guides - not man. We all have been given the truth. Not just leaders. They are their to help, to serve, not to dictate. Paul only dictated when people were erring from the truth and more than once he told them if they did not believe it they should find it out for themselves that he is speaking the truth.

I don't see "Apostolic Succession" as Biblical at all - as far as those having the true source of truth and "others" not having equal truth. I do not pretend to be able to discern any better than any other believer indwelt with the Spirit, but I will defend the Spirit's ability to give me the same discernment as one who has studied for years and years. Wisdom from God does not come in human form. His wisdom is from above, man's is from below.

I once had a pastor, who taught OSAS and pre-trib rapture, say the very thing you just did. He wanted to know if I thought Bible scholars and men with hundreds of hours of teaching actually could know less about the truth than I do. He honestly, 100%, thought that earthly wisdom that comes from the teaching of men, over ruled the possibility of God using a humble servant to impart truth too.

Here is the thing that 'seperates' me from the others. I don't demand, or want anyone to follow me. I want to stir others to seek the truth, not listen to me as the source of it. I am not the source of truth.

 

[Jim Parker]

I read through the links you posted about the Orthodox church. They are no different than the others, except having a different set of beliefs.

Right; they're no different except where they're different. (huh???)

I do have a question about them - do they really believe Mary was without sin the entire time she was alive? As in, she never sinned?

You are confusing Orthodox teaching with RCC teaching. (Specifically: the Immaculate conception)

No, the Church is not the foundation.

Then either you know better than the apostle Paul or you didn't read what he said.

I don't see "Apostolic Succession" as Biblical at all- as far as those having the true source of truth and "others" not having equal truth.

Yeah ... that's not apostolic succession.
So you don't see a biblical something that nobody said.

Having to repeatedly bring you back on track is getting tedious.

You don't seem to have anything else to say so, I'll just sign off.

Aleichem shalom
iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

Right; they're no different except where they're different. (huh???)

You are confusing Orthodox teaching with RCC teaching. (Specifically: the Immaculate conception)

Then either you know better than the apostle Paul or you didn't read what he said.

Yeah ... that's not apostolic succession.
So you don't see a biblical something that nobody said.

Having to repeatedly bring you back on track is getting tedious.

You don't seem to have anything else to say so, I'll just sign off.

Aleichem shalom
iakov the fool

Fair enough. Maybe then there are more than one "Orthodox" faiths.

https://oca.org/questions/saints/sinlessness-of-mary

From the link above;

I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to.

That is pretty clear to me.

 

[Jim Parker]

Maybe then there are more than one "Orthodox" faiths.

There's the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox and the Coptic churches. Their differences are essentially that of language and semantics regarding the Council of Chalcedon. The Orthodox settled on Jesus being "of two natures" while the Copts and the Syrians (Oriental Orthodox) preferred to say "from two natures."
Otherwise, their differences are cultural and linguistic.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am baffled as to how the same people who elected Benedict have now elected Francis.
The guy is a walking catastrophe.
It's as if they picked Jerry Brown!

iakov the fool

All my friends here are Catholic.
Most love the new pope because he's so loving and open.
The ones who really know their faith are rather horrified.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sometimes, I"m tempted to do RCIA and turn Catholic. I like Dorothy Day (I think she's a saint now...).

Protestantism seems to be a mess. Its not just the obvious fragments and factions, either. Ever read Baran research? Even a lot of church going Protestants are thoroughly worldly in their/our understanding of salvation, Jesus, sin, etc. For all the church goers in the USA, something like 9% of the total population has a genuinely Biblical, Protestant worldview.

I guess I"m saying...Protestantism has done some great things. Max Weber, the German sociologist, even wrote a book on Protestantism and the rise of (American-style) capitalism, which has definitely been a mostly good thing. But...I'm wondering if maybe the catholic church is the way to go. I mean, they seem to be the 1 Biggest force against all the ugliness of (post)modern society. I'm fascinated by what little I know of social justice, which I understand is something a lot of more conservative Protestants aren't so fond of...I just think its great that the catholics have a faith that can engage people, communities, entire societies, at all levels.

Hi CE,
I'd have to agree that Catholicism is holding tight to Christian morals.
This Pope is caving in on some ideas. Like divorce, for instance.
He proclaimed that in some instances it would be right and thus the RCC is now giving communion so SOME remarried couples. It's complicated.

What would be interesting for you would be to buy the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read the first few hundred paragraphs. It's broken down into paragraphs. It has some really beautiful ideas there.

Just remember that every church has its problems and no church is perfect.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, this is dangerous. How do you know the one person to another person teaching was not twisted over the years? All it takes is one person to say something a little off. Have you ever played the game where a bunch of people stand in a circle and then a phrase is passed around? It never gets to the end the same. Look at Peter. Paul had to reprimand him.

One of the promises of the Spirit is that He would lead us into truth. The same Spirit that was in them is in us also. That is a promise from God. It was written this way;

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

There is a reason He did this. So that it would not be like it was before when people were lead astray by false teaching. If it comes from God it cannot be false. You don't have to believe what anyone on this earth says. If it is truth, His Spirit will let you know. It's a promise. As sure as salvation.

What's dangerous?
Years ago I studied the early church Fathers a little and found they spoke perfectly biblically and what Jesus taught. Even though the bible, as a book, (the N.T.) was not even assembled yet.

You quote Jeremiah. One of my favorite scriptures. Used when teaching the New Covenant. Which is where it starts, right there in the O.T.

I know that nothing was twisted because they all agreed with each other. One liked to be different - I don't give him too much consideration anymore precisely because he WAS different. Many heretics came along, but they were removed from the Christian believing church and so Christianity was maintained.

I do trust what, for instance, Ignatius of Antioch wrote. He was taught by John the Apostle. I believe you must know that Jews were very good at passing down history, either orally or written. Scribes used to count words to make sure they didn't miss any. This held mistakes down to a minimum. The bible may be inspired, but humans wrote it and copied it.

So if the Holy Spirit teaches us today, why do some believe they cannot lose their salvation when it is plain that one can??

I do feel it's necessary to believe some on this earth - those that follow the scriptures without any preconceived notions.

Some make a doctrine and then look for scripture to support it.

Some read scripture and then make a doctrine based on the scripture.