Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[GodsGrace]

I guess it's just God's plan to separate the wheat from the chaff. Jesus said temptation is necessary.
Matthew 18:7
“Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes!

Abraham was tested. Even Jesus was tested when he was in the wilderness, fulfilling the prophet Isaiah.

Isaiah 28:16
therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am laying in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation: ‘He who believes will not be in haste.’

Why do you think Abraham was tested?
Did God not know what the outcome would be?

I do believe you're interpreting Mathew 18:7 incorrectly...

Jesus is speaking about having to be child-like in order to enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus wants humble persons that are able to learn from Him to be members of the Kingdom of God.

In verse 7 of Mathew 18, He's saying that no one should cause these "children" to stumble. No one should cause a member of the Kingdom of God to stumble because woe to that person through whom the stumbling blocks come.

See also Mathew 5:19

 

[JLB]

good point - the hard soil did not believe - so that kind of person was not saved

the other 2 rocky and thorny - if they did not understand could they believe? - what did they believe? - if you misunderstand what you heard can you be truly believe and be saved?

The good news is we don’t have to speculate about it.


Jesus plainly said they believed.


We know they received the message, and it produced the joy of salvation in them, indicated by the seed becoming a plant.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


From this we can see that believing must come first before salvation.


How can we understand the teachings of Christ, before we are born again, and receive a nature that is compatible with God?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Does the Biblical word for believe include obey?

Gee Chessman, I wonder?


Those who believe and obey the Gospel, are born again, regenerated or saved.


These on stoney places were believers, as they believed, yet only for a while.


Do you understand that the reason these were persecuted, was because they were believers in Christ; Christians?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I quoted the complete verses with the context.


Please stop making up false things about me.


It’s up to you now, to define the biblical term, “the faith”.


Please explain to all of us, what the biblical term “the faith”, means.




Here’s mine from the definitions thread I started.

• The term “the faith” in the Bible refers to our common faith in Christ Jesus for salvation.

Scripture teaches we are in a common “household of faith” as family.


Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
Galatians 6:10



Scripture texts -


Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. Jude 1:3




Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
2 Corinthians 13:5



And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ. But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.” Galatians 1:22-23



till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, Ephesians 4:13-14



Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, To Timothy, a true son in the faith: 1 Timothy 1:1-2



This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:18-20



Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 1 Timothy 3:8-9



For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 3:13



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8



For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 1 Timothy 6:10

• The Holy Spirit through the writers of the New Testament, urge us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith, and earnestly contend for the faith, as well as keep the faith, so that we do not depart from the faith, or stray from the faith or even, as some, become shipwreck concerning the faith we have in Christ Jesus.

Specifically the Holy Spirit warns us of the last days whereby some will depart from the faith, because they listened and gave heed to doctrines of demons.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


https://christianforums.net/Fellows...tanding-biblical-words-and-terms.78426/page-3


JLB

I just would like to add that Paul, or any writer, does not have to add "in Christ" to the word "faith" every time it's used...they knew and understood what The Faith is.

They were always speaking of the faith in Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

The good news is we don’t have to speculate about it.


Jesus plainly said they believed.


We know they received the message, and it produced the joy of salvation in them, indicated by the seed becoming a plant.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


From this we can see that believing must come first before salvation.


How can we understand the teachings of Christ, before we are born again, and receive a nature that is compatible with God?


JLB

Jesus' words are plain here and easy to understand.

Agreed.
No need to speculate.

 

[JLB]

I just would like to add that Paul, or any writer, does not have to add "in Christ" to the word "faith" every time it's used...they knew and understood what The Faith is.

They were always speaking of the faith in Jesus.

Of course....

Nevertheless, there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

good point - the hard soil did not believe - so that kind of person was not saved

the other 2 rocky and thorny - if they did not understand could they believe? - what did they believe? - if you misunderstand what you heard can you be truly believe and be saved?

I know persons here that do not understand anything much about biblical matters. If you ask what it means to be saved, they don't even know.

But they love God and pray and are nice persons and SEEM to be saved.

Are they?

Or is it necessary to know Christian doctrine to be saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course....

Nevertheless, there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

JLB

Agreed.
But NOT the writers of the N.T.
(whom we're discussing)

 

[chessman]

Jesus spoke in parables for a few reasons.
None of them was so they could be unclear.

For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand, and with reference to them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says, “ You will listen carefully and will never understand, and you will look closely and will never perceive.​

Matthew 13:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:13-14&version=LEB

If Jesus’ reason for speaking to them in parables is right, it was to fulfill the prophecy that they would listen carefully yet never understand.

What are some of your reasons for thinking He spoke in parables?

 

[JLB]

For all in this thread discussion -


Here is something to consider.


The ones who produced fruit were those who understand.


Here’s one thing they understand -


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2


“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6



Fruitless branches are removed from Christ, and end up being cast into the fire and burned.




JLB

 

[JLB]

For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand, and with reference to them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says, “ You will listen carefully and will never understand, and you will look closely and will never perceive.​

Matthew 13:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:13-14&version=LEB

If Jesus’ reason for speaking to them in parables is right, it was to fulfill the prophecy that they would listen carefully yet never understand.

What are some of your reasons for thinking He spoke in parables?

Better yet what was these reason He explained the parables, to His disciples; believers?


Here’s a question for you -


What is it that one must have, in order to receive more?



For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Matthew 13:12


I’ve taught this before, do you remember?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand, and with reference to them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says, “ You will listen carefully and will never understand, and you will look closely and will never perceive.​

Matthew 13:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:13-14&version=LEB

If Jesus’ reason for speaking to them in parables is right, it was to fulfill the prophecy that they would listen carefully yet never understand.

What are some of your reasons for thinking He spoke in parables?

Goodness Chessman!
Jesus came to earth to teach us the ways of God...WHY would He not want us to understand?

Here are some reasons why Jesus spoke in parables:

1. It was the best way to make the persons of that day understand what He was teaching since they were farmers, carpenters, rich men, etc. He had a category for everyone and spoke of everyone (type).

2. Persons that had different needs could adapt the parable to what they needed. Maybe it was something material and physical: Giving to the poor.
Maybe it was something spiritual: Those who drink of THIS water will never thirst.

3. Persons could "read into" the parable and make it more personal for themselves. Maybe they were having trouble with the spouse and decided not to leave them, as Jesus taught.
Maybe they were sinning and hearing Jesus made them stop sinning.

4. Jesus wanted people to consider becoming Christian. The gate is narrow, not wide. Not everyone wanted to be Christian -- same as today. Those that were serious would consider and understand what He said...those that did not like what He said would not understand it or accept it.

It cannot possibly be because God does not want us to hear.
It is US that do not want to hear.

 

[JLB]

Goodness Chessman!
Jesus came to earth to teach us the ways of God...WHY would He not want us to understand?

Here are some reasons why Jesus spoke in parables:

1. It was the best way to make the persons of that day understand what He was teaching since they were farmers, carpenters, rich men, etc. He had a category for everyone and spoke of everyone (type).

2. Persons that had different needs could adapt the parable to what they needed. Maybe it was something material and physical: Giving to the poor.
Maybe it was something spiritual: Those who drink of THIS water will never thirst.

3. Persons could "read into" the parable and make it more personal for themselves. Maybe they were having trouble with the spouse and decided not to leave them, as Jesus taught.
Maybe they were sinning and hearing Jesus made them stop sinning.

4. Jesus wanted people to consider becoming Christian. The gate is narrow, not wide. Not everyone wanted to be Christian -- same as today. Those that were serious would consider and understand what He said...those that did not like what He said would not understand it or accept it.

It cannot possibly be because God does not want us to hear.
It is US that do not want to hear.

Yes he doesn’t seem understand the difference between “them” and “you”.


He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Matthew 13:11-13




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes he doesn’t seem understand the difference between “them” and “you”.


He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Matthew 13:11-13


JLB

Good point.
For "them", those that do not care enough to listen...
even what little they have will be taken away because they're not doing anything with it, not putting what they have to good use.
Mathew 25:14-30 I do believe this would be appropriate.

14“For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15“To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16“Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17“In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18“But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19“Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20“The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21“His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

22“Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’23“His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

24“And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[chessman]

Goodness Chessman!

Goodness Wondering! Jesus tells you the reason (singular) He spoke to them in parables. What I said the reason was matches what He said. Your reasons don’t. And you didn’t support any of the 4 with Jesus’ teaching on why He spoke to them in parables. But I did.

Jesus came to earth to teach us the ways of God...WHY would He not want us to understand?

Who said anything about us? I didn’t.

Here are some reasons why Jesus spoke to THEM in parables:

Got any Scripture for your reasons?

Here’s THE reason (singular) Jesus gave for why as compared to yours:

And the disciples came up and said to him, “ Why do you speak to them in parables?” ...​

For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand, and with reference to them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says, “ You will listen carefully and will never understand, and you will look closely and will never perceive.​

Matthew 13:10,13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:10,13-14&version=LEB

1. It was the best way to make the persons of that day understand what He was teaching since they were farmers, carpenters, rich men, etc. He had a category for everyone and spoke of everyone (type).

It’s the best Jesus could do huh??? What about His interpretation which He gave His disciples privately, isn’t that better?

What about the prophecy??? Was Jesus trying His best to make them understand so the prophecy in Isaiah 6 would NOT be fulfilled or does the prophecy say they will never understand?

2. Persons that had different needs could adapt the parable to what they needed.

Everyone needs Christ.

3. Persons could "read into" the parable and make it more personal for themselves

So it’s interpretation is meant to be personal eisegesis not Jesus’ exegesis. Have you thought your reason here through carefully???

4. Jesus wanted people to consider becoming Christian.

And he answered and said to them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to those people it has not been granted.​

Matthew 13:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:11&version=LEB

Had understanding been granted to everyone?

 

[chessman]

Those who believe and obey the Gospel, are born again, regenerated or saved.

Did they Rocky soil obey the word?

Do you understand that the reason these were persecuted, was because they were believers in Christ; Christians?

That’s your interpretation, not Jesus’. Were the High Priests and Scribes (who hated Jesus) not persecuted by the Romans because of the word about the Kingdom of God (versus the Roman Empire)?

And these are like the ones sown on the rocky ground, who whenever they hear the word immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Then when affliction or persecution comes because of the word, immediately they fall away.​

Mark 4:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 4:16-17&version=LEB

Jesus’ interpretation doesn’t mention their persecution being because ‘they were believers in Christ, Christians’. There were no Christians at that time!

 

[chessman]

Yes he doesn’t seem understand the difference between “them” and “you”.

I didn’t say you or “us”. I said “them”.

If Jesus’ reason for speaking to them in parables is right, it was to fulfill the prophecy that they would listen carefully yet never understand.

What are some of your reasons for thinking He spoke in parables?

 

[chessman]

I just would like to add that Paul, or any writer, does not have to add "in Christ" to the word "faith" every time it's used...they knew and understood what The Faith is.

If you read the rest of Paul’s sentence, without chopping it off, you too can understand what he means by “depart from the faith” in this sentence:

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying-attention-to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars having been seared as to their own conscience— forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created for a receiving with thanksgiving by the ones who are believers and know the truth.​

1 Timothy 4:1-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1-3&version=DLNT

Do you believe that every creature that has been sanctified by the word of God is good and nothing will be rejected that has been sanctified by God?

 

[Truthfrees]

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying-attention-to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars having been seared as to their own conscience— forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created for a receiving with thanksgiving by the ones who are believers and know the truth.1 Timothy 4:1-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1-3&version=DLNT

amen - i see it the same as you do

 

[Truthfrees]

And these are like the ones sown on the rocky ground, who whenever they hear the word immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Then when affliction or persecution comes because of the word, immediately they fall away.Mark 4:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 4:16-17&version=LEB

they have no root - i see this as someone who didn't get saved - because they didn't even take root