Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Deborah13]

I am serious here, ilove.

Why do you think that you have lost your salvation? What have people been telling you?

UH....did I miss something here, where did ilove say they thought they had lost their salvation?

 

[Deborah13]

Bingo! If you are a friend of the world you are turning from God's grace and kindness...you become a enemy of God. James 4:4
You can not serve two masters.

So what do you consider as being a friend of the world?

 

[Mitspa]

Bingo! If you are a friend of the world you are turning from God's grace and kindness...you become a enemy of God. James 4:4
You can not serve two masters.

Well thats another one or your magic scripture tricks? You take two scriptures completly out of context and then put them together to make a doctrine to match your own guilty conscience.
Those who are under law are friends of this world, because the law produces sinful desires for worldly things. It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. So when one turns away from Gods mercy and love, they lust after things of the world.

So again you make little biblical sense as it relates to the truth of scripture.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

They will stay the passage means something else because you post truth. They will also say it means something different in the "greek" or "God did not mean what He said".

No, we'll say it means something else because it does mean something else. Jethro tried to get away with posting this exact same passage two days ago on this thread, and this is how I responded (seems he's kinda forgetful about being refuted) ...

This is an example of the misunderstanding not only of Scripture (and I'm not saying you don't understand it, I'm speaking in generalizations) but of the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, or eternal security.

One of the misconceptions about the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is that it will lead to “carnal Christians†who believe that since they are eternally secure they can live whatever licentious lifestyle they wish and still be saved. But that is a misunderstanding of the doctrine and what the Bible teaches. A person who believes he can live any way he wants because he has professed Christ is not demonstrating true saving faith.

1 John 2 NASB
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
​

Thus is the one described as in danger of being "cut off" from the Vine in Romans 11:20-22. Not because of a loss of faith, but as one never truly grafted in, or poorly grafted in. A graft has two choices, to live or to die. A graft that is poorly done or that is poorly supported will perish. In the perspective of the non-Jew grafted into the Vine, a graft "poorly done" is one that is based strictly on emotion, with no true conviction.

Many of us look at someone who walks the aisle and prays the prayer and say, "Now he/she is saved," but the truth is we don't know that. We can't see the heart, we can't know what God has thought of the confession, as to whether it is true and heartfelt or not. That is required. Also required is growth. A graft that does not take in the nourishment of the plant to which it is grafted also dies, and if a person acts on emotion and does not take in the word of God into his/her heart, and does not make the effort to find out about this faith which he/she has claimed, they are like the seeds scattered on the road. They have joyfully received, but are snatched away by the birds before they can even think about taking root.

Our eternal security rests on the biblical teaching that those whom God justifies, He will also glorify.

Romans 8
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
​

Those who are saved will indeed be conformed to the image of Christ through the process of sanctification.

1 Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
​

When a person is saved, the Holy Spirit breaks the bondage of sin and gives the believer a new heart and a desire to seek holiness. There is no way any mere human act can undo the work of God, It is impossible. Therefore a true Christian will desire to be obedient to God and will be convicted by the Holy Spirit when he sins. True Christians will never “live any way they want†because such behavior is impossible for someone who has been given a new nature.

2 Corinthians
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.​

 

[gr8grace]

UH....did I miss something here, where did ilove say they thought they had lost their salvation?

Hi Deb,

I read through the post, and no one here has told him he has lost his salvation. He has brought up scripture that He has interpreted that one can lose salvation. So the way he has interpreted those verses he obviously has to believe that he has lost his salvation.

 

[Mitspa]

So these people think that God has called them to warn others? They take a warning that relates to turning back to law and attempt to make it relate to a warning that James gives to those who covet worldly things. Paul himself taught that it was the law that produces the desire to covet! So again a warning that is not for those who trust in grace and ask and receive by grace.

All this guilt comes from those who are under the yoke of the law. They feel condemned in their heart and they look to condemn others. They do not need any eveidence that anyone has done anything against the will of God. They just accuse and try to cause doubt in others hearts because that is what is in their own heart. You notice that the pharisee had this same nature? Jesus would heal, and forgive and the pharisee would come and accuse those Jesus had made clean and whole. Jesus called these people who accused others the children of satan? THE ACCUSER

 

[iLOVE]

So what do you consider as being a friend of the world?

A Christian Believer who rejects Christ and the Cross.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

I read through the post, and no one here has told him he has lost his salvation. He has brought up scripture that He has interpreted that one can lose salvation. So the way he has interpreted those verses he obviously has to believe that he has lost his salvation.

Hi grace,

Welcome to CF.net we are very pleased to have you.
I will not catch you up in this thread but if we all hang around you will soon see what the debate is about and where each person stands.
Blessings, Deb

 

[Deborah13]

A Christian Believer who rejects Christ and the Cross.

I agree with this statement as I have myself used it, however now the question becomes...How do we define Rejects?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

A Christian Believer who rejects Christ and the Cross.

What's amazing to me is that you still do not realize how absurd and contradictory that statement is.

 

[iLOVE]

What's amazing to me is that you still do not realize how absurd and contradictory that statement is.

Do you love Lord Jesus Christ? Why do you start forums that starts conflict over and over? The Holy Spirit will never allow you to continue to post and talk as you do. Is He there? You do not depend on Christ and the Cross for anything. You have shown you are double minded. Choose several of these six things if you wish below.

16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

 

[iLOVE]

I agree with this statement as I have myself used it, however now the question becomes...How do we define Rejects?

see post #311

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, we'll say it means something else because it does mean something else. Jethro tried to get away with posting this exact same passage two days ago on this thread, and this is how I responded (seems he's kinda forgetful about being refuted) ...

It's hard to get to every post I want to respond to. We know Israel serves as an illustration, not an exact example of the subject Paul is talking about. I'm not saying it definitively proves a genuine believer standing by faith can lose his salvation. I'm saying their's enough evidence in that passage and others in the Bible that the possibility of a genuinely justified person actually doing that has to be given honest consideration. I for one do not believe ANYBODY can treat the grace of God with contempt, making a decision to not care about God's forgiveness anymore, before or after salvation, and somehow expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath. The question for me is, "can a real believer really do that?" That's the honest question to ask about this matter.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It's hard to get to every post I want to respond to. We know Israel serves as an illustration, not an exact example of the subject Paul is talking about. I'm not saying it definitively proves a genuine believer standing by faith can lose his salvation. I'm saying their's enough evidence in that passage and others in the Bible that the possibility of a genuinely justified person actually doing that has to be given honest consideration. I for one do not believe ANYBODY can treat the grace of God with contempt, making a decision to not care about God's forgiveness anymore, before or after salvation, and somehow expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath. The question for me is, "can a real believer really do that?"

No, he/she can't, because his/her salvation had nothing to do with him/her in the first place, therefore nothing he/she does can separate him/her from fellowship with God. What many see as "lost salvation" is actually "false salvation." These think that walking an aisle and saying a prayer is salvation, but if it isn't accompanied by a God-approved and accepted confession that is sincere and heartfelt, it is not. And we can't see whether that's the case or not. Only God can. Those who believe the walk and the prayer represent salvation then assume someone who has undertaken those fleshly acts is saved, and when they fail and refuse to repent, they then assume salvation has been lost. Nothing could be further from the truth. They were never saved in the first place, regardless of what they looked like and how they acted immediately after the fact. It was all emotionalism with no conviction, and no life-changing indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Interestingly, I've never met anyone who thinks a believer can lose their salvation who thinks they have ever lost their own salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So these people think that God has called them to warn others? They take a warning that relates to turning back to law and attempt to make it relate to a warning that James gives to those who covet worldly things.

So you're saying it's impossible for a person to just walk away from the faith and openly go back to their sins without being a hypocrite who pretends for others that they are still in the faith? Does falling away always have to mean pretending to be a Christian and not openly going back to the life of sin they lived before?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, he/she can't, because his/her salvation had nothing to do with him/her in the first place, therefore nothing he/she does can separate him/her from fellowship with God. What many see as "lost salvation" is actually "false salvation." These think that walking an aisle and saying a prayer is salvation, but if it isn't accompanied by a God-approved and accepted confession that is sincere and heartfelt, it is not. And we can't see whether that's the case or not. Only God can. Those who believe the walk and the prayer represent salvation then assume someone who has undertaken those fleshly acts is saved, and when they fail and refuse to repent, they then assume salvation has been lost. Nothing could be further from the truth. They were never saved in the first place, regardless of what they looked like and how they acted immediately after the fact. It was all emotionalism with no conviction, and no life-changing indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

What is 'standing by faith' then?

Just asking. Remember, I'm not firmly convicted about the matter. I'm NOT debating the issue. I'm discussing it...rationally, calmly, and unemotionally.

(edit) Mostly rationally and logically the way God wants us to examine the scriptures. I've learned the most, and grown the most, by being very honest about what the scriptures say instead of relying on what I've been told.

 

[Deborah13]

see post #311

So just like all others of righteousness by works when it comes down to the nitty gritty you don't want to give a straight answer. So I will break one of my own rules of posting.

So I have to assume, that you are saying that if one has sin in their life they have rejected the blood of Christ.

So why do you know you are saved?? You have clearly stated this on another thread.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Interestingly, I've never met anyone who thinks a believer can lose their salvation who thinks they have ever lost their own salvation.

Could it be because they are heeding the Bible's warnings to be careful to persevere in the faith and not be lost? That's why they were given, not so we will fall away, but so we won't. Do you understand what I'm saying?

 

[Deborah13]

Interestingly, I've never met anyone who thinks a believer can lose their salvation who thinks they have ever lost their own salvation.

How do you do, Mr thisnumbersdisconnected. My name is Deborah13. Now you've met one.

the doctrine of works is straight from the pit!!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Could it be because they are heeding the Bible's warnings to be careful to persevere in the faith and not be lost? That's why they were given, not so we will fall away, but so we won't. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Yes, but I don't accept it because that view assumes a person can act both to gain, and "lose", his/her salvation. We can't. (Read, please, the following.)

What is 'standing by faith' then?

That is not of self, but the gift of God. We must look at all biblical passages using biblical terms from a biblical perspective. From where does faith come? As Paul tell us, it is from God.

Ephesians 2 NASB
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
​

It is not ours by merit, or by our "chosenness," but by the grace of God that we are saved. We are blessed with faith in Christ, and having made a profession of it were admitted to gospel ordinances -- established by Christ when He broke the law down into simplest terms: Love God, love others (Matthew 22:37-39). We are placed in fellowship with Him and with like believers, having been "grafted in" to a fellowship that recognizes the completion of His promise in Himself. We are held fast by His power to the profession of faith in a convincing manner. We stand, and continue in our relationship with Christ in His power, not our own. We cannot give way to a vain boasting spirit, which is what claiming others can lose what we would never admit ourselves that we have lost, but to be humble, modest, and dependent upon the Lord Jesus.

As I said in the previously (twice) posted information about being "grafted in," the graft has no power over its own survival. It relies completely on the sustenance of the Vine. If the Vine rejects it -- in the case of the professor of faith, a nonacceptance of that profession because it is false and not sincere -- it perishes. If it lives, it is because the graft has been accepted by the Vine, is nourished, fed, nurtured, and blessed.

The Jews who were "broken off" (hint: a gardener breaks off a failed graft before it damages the vine) were not true professors of faith. They believed that merely being Jewish saved them. Not true. It is also because of faith, just as it is with us as Christians.

Likewise, if a professor of Christian faith thinks he/she is saved because of a walk and a prayer but truly is not convicted, acting only on emotion, they will falsely believe they are saved. Often, this is the fault of their family and friends, who see the walk of the aisle and the saying of the prayer and pronounce it "good" when it is only God who can make that pronouncement. If there is no conviction behind their confession, nor sincerity in it, they will be like that failed graft, to be broken off and cast away, because the "grafting in" failed.

There is always a reason Jesus and the apostles use allegory like this grafting illustration. It is a good idea to know the truth behind the image in order to understand the passage.