Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[childeye]

Consider that Paul said satan would attempt to deceive believers from the simplicty of Christ, as the serpent deceived eve? Did god really say?
The simplicty of Christ? Faith working by love.

Consider that Paul taught this to the Jews that had been under the yoke of Law? "love fulfills all of it" Recieve the Holy Spirit and Gods love, now love others as you have been love, only do not eat again from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

What a wonderful God, consider that we have a law that only demands what God gives freely? For we are responsible to love others based upon the love we know and have received.
God does not ask my brother Edward to love others according to my knowledge of His love, but according to edwards knowledge of Gods love for Him. Which very well could be above my own? The mystery of godliness.

You said only do not eat again from the knowledg of good and evil. What do you mean by this since it seems to me that once you know good and evil, there is no going back, only forward unto the tree of life?

 

[Mitspa]

You said only do not eat again from the knowledg of good and evil. What do you mean by this since it seems to me that once you know good and evil, there is no going back, only forward unto the tree of life?

Why do you think we must become fools to be made wise? we must no longer trust in our own understaning but have our minds renewed unto the gospel. The law is not of faith and one must "reckon" himself dead to the law with Christ.

So of course Paul is speaking and reminding the believer of these things where sin started and of course the law is the strength of this sin.
We can come to the place where we no longer are carnally minded, but spiritually minded. The law is in direct conflict with this process, unless one understands its purpose and its place, then it can be a very helpful witness, but we can not eat from both trees and think we can have things both ways.

 

[childeye]

Why do you think we must become fools to be made wise? we must no longer trust in our own understaning but have our minds renewed unto the gospel. The law is not of faith and one must "reckon" himself dead to the law with Christ.

So of course Paul is speaking and reminding the believer of these things where sin started and of course the law is the strength of this sin.
We can come to the place where we no longer are carnally minded, but spiritually minded. The law is in direct conflict with this process, unless one understands its purpose and its place, then it can be a very helpful witness, but we can not eat from both trees and think we can have things both ways.

Okay, so I guess what you are saying is don't trust in knowledge that God did not give you?

 

[Mitspa]

Okay, so I guess what you are saying is don't trust in knowledge that God did not give you?

I would say yes in that when we understand that the natural condition of our minds, natural mans way of thinking is not like Gods. For it is written as the heavens are higher than the earth so are His thoughts above our own. The natuarl mind is at emnity with the thoughts and ways of God. For instance true biblical love is without selfish intentions. Now this is in complete contradiction to the natural man who even loves with selfish motives. We even love our children in large part because they are ours and we love ourselves.
This is why the Lord said that we must hate those of our own house? What he really means is that He has a new way of love, of course most have heard some teaching on the word agape?
So again when we come to Christ, we must come as a fool and as a child so that He can teach us Gods divine nature.

 

[childeye]

Why do I think we must become fools to be made wise? Because wisdom belongs to God so that He be glorified not us. Because knowledge puffs up but Love lifts others. Because knowledge of God brings humility while knowledge of good and evil brings judgment. But what would I know, I'm just a fool.

 

[reba]

I think you mean "anyone trying to earn salvation by keeping the law is saying that the Cross was not enough". We are told we MUST obey the commandments, if we love Christ. Do we?

Obedience to the Law is not, in of itself, wrong. God commands us to, and Moses says that they are NOT too difficult (yea, not impossible...) to follow. What is at stake here is the heart of the follower. Do I rely on grace to fulfill the commandments of Christ, or am i looking to obligate or place God in debt by being a "good Christian". Legalism v love. The same "works" are being done, but how are they being accomplished?

Regards

I think we are saying the same thing you just talk fancy

 

[Free]

what was those doctrines of demons, how did Paul decribe them in this passage? Those who forbide to marry and forbide the eating of meats.
Paul stands against those who teach law, this cannot be challenged. It is evident.
Bring a biblical debate, then If you have issue with what I have taught, make it by the scriptures.
The law is not of faith, those who attempt to be justified by the law, have fallen from grace.
The strength of sin is the law.
The Ministry of death and condemnation, written and engraved on stones. The Ten Commandments.

And yet Paul is not dealing with the Law here. It's amazing how you're finding the Law in places where it is not. Not to mention "doctrines of demons" would refer to a whole host of false doctrines. Or do you seriously think that the only doctrines of demons are the forbidding of marriage and abstaining from certain foods, which is what your argument amounts to?

These things are written in black and white, no one has even attempted to give a biblical answer to any of these scriptures.

What Scriptures? I gave a story from personal experience of someone who walked away from the faith. You immediately presumed the Law was involved somehow but we haven't discussed any Scripture. This thread has grown too fast, so if you can point me out to Scriptures you have given, I'll gladly take a look.

As far as the guy you say is in the world, I say better in the world with the sinners than in a chruch that is full of hypocrites. The Lord showed mercy to the sinners but came with anger upon the hypocrites.

Really? Better to "depart from the faith," to apostatize, then to remain in the faith even though there are hypocrites in it? Do you think that hypocrites are only in the Church? God will deal with everyone and better it is to be a believer in a church full of hypocrites than one who has renounced their faith.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I think the parable of the Sower is very applicable in understanding how things actually work and, IMO, it is most often either shallow soil or the cares, riches, and pleasures of life and that cause people to walk away from the faith.

In the first two examples of soil where the seed fell, it never germinated. So there would be no salvation there. In the latter two, there is salvation illustrated by the seed which fell among the weeds and thorns, but there is no real growth. Growth is not necessary for salvation. It is, however, necessary for rewards -- i.e., laying up treasures in heaven. Note that our focus is not heaven, because it is assured. Our focus is to serve others, for their benefit as well as for ours in heaven. If we lay up no treasure -- service -- we will be as those cast into the "outer darkness" of heaven as shown in Matthew 25:30. Note, that is the wedding feast of the lamb. Only those who have been saved may take part. But those who laid up no reward through service -- a result of growth in Christ -- will not partake of the celebration, but will only get to watch. And of course, the last example of the seed which produced ten, twenty, a hundred fold, obviously took root, grew and multiplied.

 

[Mitspa]

And yet Paul is not dealing with the Law here. It's amazing how you're finding the Law in places where it is not. Not to mention "doctrines of demons" would refer to a whole host of false doctrines. Or do you seriously think that the only doctrines of demons are the forbidding of marriage and abstaining from certain foods, which is what your argument amounts to?


What Scriptures? I gave a story from personal experience of someone who walked away from the faith. You immediately presumed the Law was involved somehow but we haven't discussed any Scripture. This thread has grown too fast, so if you can point me out to Scriptures you have given, I'll gladly take a look.


Really? Better to "depart from the faith," to apostatize, then to remain in the faith even though there are hypocrites in it? Do you think that hypocrites are only in the Church? God will deal with everyone and better it is to be a believer in a church full of hypocrites than one who has renounced their faith.

Paul is very much dealing with those who teach law in this epistle, and in this very passage of scripture.

Your personal opinions have little to do with the truth of Gods word. For if you are under law? you have no ability to discern between true faith and mans religion.
I have made no claim that a man should turn "to apostatize" but I doubt that one who can not see the law is not of faith? Has little understanding of what it means when one leaves the faith.

 

[Mitspa]

In the first two examples of soil where the seed fell, it never germinated. So there would be no salvation there. In the latter two, there is salvation illustrated by the seed which fell among the weeds and thorns, but there is no real growth. Growth is not necessary for salvation. It is, however, necessary for rewards -- i.e., laying up treasures in heaven. Note that our focus is not heaven, because it is assured. Our focus is to serve others, for their benefit as well as for ours in heaven. If we lay up no treasure -- service -- we will be as those cast into the "outer darkness" of heaven as shown in Matthew 25:30. Note, that is the wedding feast of the lamb. Only those who have been saved may take part. But those who laid up no reward through service -- a result of growth in Christ -- will not partake of the celebration, but will only get to watch. And of course, the last example of the seed which produced ten, twenty, a hundred fold, obviously took root, grew and multiplied.

Good to hear from you number! It seems some are so determined to "unsave" what God has saved they will take any part of scripture that in any way suggest a loss of any sort, and equate that to salvation. It almost as if some can not rest at night until they have done this great evil of trying to unsave what Christ has saved.
In their hearts they cannot refrain from doing this wicked thing, and some do it all day long.

Again I say those who seek to warn others? warn yourself!

 

[Grazer]

Good to hear from you number! It seems some are so determined to "unsave" what God has saved they will take any part of scripture that in any way suggest a loss of any sort, and equate that to salvation. It almost as if some can not rest at night until they have done this great evil of trying to unsave what Christ has saved.
In their hearts they cannot refrain from doing this wicked thing, and some do it all day long.

Again I say those who seek to warn others? warn yourself!

Indeed, everybody should

 

[Mitspa]

Since personal experience has been upheld by some as a way to explain the issue of warning others? I will give one of my own.
I had met a person from a large local church, one that was considered a leader in that church. After being around this person for only a short while, I became very weary of the gossip, strife and general ungodly behavior of this person.
Now this person never said a curse word, did no sinful act as it relates to what is accepted by the large majority of christians. But seemed to enjoy greatly to judge the faults of those who were around them.
About a week later I saw a large write-up in the paper from this persons church. How the women where wearing tight pants and short shorts, and bemoaning all the faults of those in the area, who had drug-addictions and such. Then at the end of this write-up they condemned all these people to heck, using Gal 5:19-21 But they did a very dishonest thing? They only mentioned those things for which they had judged others!
They left out ENMITIES, STRIFE, JEALOUSIES, WRATH, CONFLICTS, FRACTIONS, ENVY. etc...
These things are all put on the same level by Paul. To mention some and not to mention them all, is just dishonest. As I called the pastor of this church, and rebuked him for his actions of taking the sciptures out of context to condemn others. I must say he repented and the next week wrote of his error in that same paper.

Now If Paul is "unsaving" people in these scriptures? we all have been unsaved.
What Paul is doing is helping us to see when we have gone back into the flesh. We inherit the Kingdom by walking in the spirit, for the Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom. No flesh, no matter how religious one may think they are can inherit the kingdom. Again the pharisee should be considered.

Here again Paul is not unsaving people or saying they cannot be saved. Those who use the scriptures to do these things are the very ones who Gods anger is being kindled against.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now If Paul is "unsaving" people in these scriptures? we all have been unsaved.

That's why I say you have to know WHY someone is turning back to the deeds of the flesh to know if they are not saved. And unless they tell you themselves only God knows why. But we are free to decide who we will fellowship with and who we will not based on their behavior.

Here again Paul is not unsaving people or saying they cannot be saved. Those who use the scriptures to do these things are the very ones who Gods anger is being kindled against.

But a person's behavior does not preclude the matter of judgment/discernment altogether. We are told to make judgments about who we think is for real, and who is not, based on their behavior for other reasons besides just wondering if they're saved or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good to hear from you number! It seems some are so determined to "unsave" what God has saved they will take any part of scripture that in any way suggest a loss of any sort, and equate that to salvation. It almost as if some can not rest at night until they have done this great evil of trying to unsave what Christ has saved.
In their hearts they cannot refrain from doing this wicked thing, and some do it all day long.

Again I say those who seek to warn others? warn yourself!

Faith is how God keeps us for the Day of Wrath. Stop having faith and you no longer have that which keeps you for the Day of Wrath. The question is not if that is true or not. The question is can a person who had real saving faith then stop having that faith?

I personally am beginning to see merit in seeing it from the angle of not if faith is genuine or not, but if faith can persevere or not. IOW, the refining of faith is not the making of faith so it is now able to save, but of making it more able to persevere...more and more to the Day of Wrath.

Perhaps 'weak' faith is not so much about a faith that can not save (because it supposedly doesn't really believe), but more about it's capacity to persevere. This seems consistent with the second soil of Jesus' Parable of the Sower. The person believed, but having 'no root' that faith was not able to persevere to the end.

So, I guess the question is, "what are the roots of faith? Does having a rooted faith mean it has penetrated your own heart to the degree that you can persevere in that faith, or does it mean to have a faith that is truly rooted in Christ? See the difference and the implications that has to the difference between the sincerity of faith and the perseverance of faith as to whether a person will be saved on the Day of Wrath? Anybody?

 

[francisdesales]

joe, the torah was intent to be a teacher to show us where we need to change by itself it didn't change us. ie when david commited adultery and murder, why didn't he die?

Jason, you are exactly right. That is THE primary difference between the old and the new. The old did not give us the ability to follow it. The new does. The Spirit is now being poured out more lavishly to enable us to follow the SAME law to an even greater degree. Otherwise, Jesus would not have said "you have heard it said do not commit adultery...". Jesus fulfills the true meaning of the Torah by explaining the inner necessity of following the original intent of God's commands, or God's intent for man (such as regarding divorce)

Those who say we don't have to follow the Law anymore are wrong.

there was no way he could be forgiven. yet god forgave him.

The Jews did have a means for asking God for forgiveness. I am not sure what you mean by "there was no way he could be forgiven". The Jews did have a cultic system and priests that interceded for the community to ask for forgiveness from God, esp. Yom Kippur. But you already know this!

noah found grace in the eyes of god. the law is to teach us that we need the atonement and the power to be holy cometh from god, not within ourselves.

The faithful Jew did not believe otherwise...They were well aware of their position viz a viz to God. I think some Christians improperly stereotype the Jews to be clowns who didn't know that God was all powerful and that they needed to turn to Him for forgiveness. Of course they knew this...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You put a smiley face to a comment that "no one can keep the letter because that would be a work of the flesh"???

THAT'S the Gospel??? THAT'S the good news???



Deborah, we need to talk. Using your words or someone else's, please explain to me the concept of obeying God's Law (commanded by Him) is a work of the flesh???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I think we are saying the same thing you just talk fancy

;)

 

[francisdesales]

This is true and the deepest of Truths given in all heaven and earth, and he climbed onto his cross and showed His Love. And I weep at the sight.

Yes, we must love one another - the Royal Law. It is a summation of the entire Law.

And there came one of the scribes that had heard them reasoning together, and seeing that he had answered them well, asked him which was the first commandment of all. And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him: Well, Master, thou hast said in truth, that there is one God, and there is no other besides him. And that he should be loved with he whole heart, and with the whole understanding, and with the whole soul, and with the whole strength; and to love one's neighbour as one's self, is a greater thing than all holocausts and sacrifices. And Jesus seeing that he had answered wisely, said to him: Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question. Mark 12:28-34 DRA

I find this amazing, that Jesus did not consider this scribe as a man working in the flesh by trying to follow the Law of God with his "whole heart"...

Regards

 

[Ryan]

Ryan and Jethro,

It seems that we largely agree on the subject discussed here. I thought I would make a few points that might explain things better for others. Let me know if you disagree:

Although Paul makes a great distinction between faith v works performed under obligation of the Law, he DOES make it clear that there is a strong connection between faith and obedience to God's Law. It would seem to be contradictory. However, this contradiction goes away once we understand the difference between "work done under the principle of obligation" vs "works done under the power of God's grace". Man cannot obligate God. This is one of his most fundamental teachings:

"to the one working, the wage is not reckoned according to grace, but according to obligation" Romans 4:4

"And if by grace, then it is no longer works; if it were, grace would be no longer grace" Romans 11:6

Any understanding of justification must take into account this principle of legal obligation, which distinguishes between "grace" and "works". In Rom 4:4, Paul indicates two ways of receiving eternal life - 1: that which is owed to the individual for work done (paycheck...) OR that which one receives as a gift from God. The later is grace. Clearly, God must give salvation by grace, a gift, since no one can obligate God. This was a misunderstanding of the teachings of Deuteronomy and the Covenant by the Jews, who turned faithful following of the Law into legalism that God owed a reward for obeying.

How is one's relationship with God grounded? Paul links obedience to the law and faith together for justification (such as Romans 2:13). "Faith" and "works", for Paul, become the background for how that relationship with God is grounded. Do we come to obey God by legal obligation, believing God owes us a reward? Or do we recognize that we require God's grace to save us and that God is near to the person who lives by faith?

Paul lays this out in Romans 2:5-10. God saves or condemns based on the works of the individual. (esp. v7). Is Paul contradicting himself here and Romans 3-6? No, because the works of Romans 2 are works done under the power of God's grace, rather than under legal obligation:

"Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and his forbearance and longsuffering, not realizing the kindness of God leads you to repentance"? Rom 2:4

Kindness, forbearance and longsuffering are attributes of God that flow to us by grace. God is not obligated to act in this manner towards man. He does not have to "lead us to repentance". Thus, the works of Romans 2, which are accompanied by faith and repentance, are not works done under the principle of debt/obligation - which Paul will attack in Romans 4:4. These works are done under the principles of trusting faith and grace.

Jesus is no different. He consistently makes our salvation contingent upon our obedience to God. However, this obedience must be "greater than the Pharisees". This certainly cannot refer to more "deeds", the Pharisees were meticulous. What was different is clearly laid out in the Sermon on the Mount. Obedience to God must come from the heart - for God desires mercy, not sacrifice.

And thus, man still must obey the Law written by "the finger of God". What matters, throughout the OT and NT, is whether man is trying to place God under debt, or whether man is responding to God's grace with appropriate conversion of the heart and mind.

Thoughts?

I believe we are walking on the same path, maybe not holding hands, but going in the same direction nonetheless. If you want to start a thread on this, I will surely follow you as this will get to confusing in here. New start with fresh ideas I think. Maybe we can begin when the Law began, in the Garden of Eden. Don't know? So much ground to discuss. PM me.

 

[Ryan]

Well I thank you for the warning! But what you do not see is that warning is against those who turn back to law and the willing sin is that , turning back to the strength of sin, which is the law. See my friend, this is accounting the Blood as a common thing and insulting the Spirit of Grace.
For if its by grace? it is no longer by law, and if its by law? then its no longer by grace.

So yes there will be a Great and terrible Day of the Lord.
I will be found standing with Paul, not having my own righteousness, which is by the law, but I will have the Righteousness of God, which comes through faith alone, In the Work of Christ.

Also I should add that God is not at emnity with the law! Christ fulfilled its purpose unto the jot and tittle.
Man is at emnity with the law, and man has no power to keep the law, for it was given to show this very thing. Now to go about to keep what God says, man cannot keep is the emnity between God and a man who goes about to establish his own righteousness and has not submitted to Gods righteousness.

Just in keeping with this thread, here are my last thoughts before I peace out. Everything has an opposite. Light/Dark, Up/Down, Right/Left, Evil/Good, Law/Lawlessness or Torah/Torahlessness. When the son of perdition is revealed, will he be telling you to follow God's laws, or to rebel? Lawlessness is the condition of without, or absent of God's Laws being the Mosaic Law. So when you are free from the Law, is that necessarily a good thing?


Matthew 24:12
Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. (Is this indicative of many churches and the messages being preached from the pulpits?)

Matthew 7:23
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Hebrews 1:9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.â€

1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.



Just ponder it and I am done in here. I hope the rest of the discussion is peaceful and fruitful.