Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Mitspa]

You put a smiley face to a comment that "no one can keep the letter because that would be a work of the flesh"???

THAT'S the Gospel??? THAT'S the good news???



Deborah, we need to talk. Using your words or someone else's, please explain to me the concept of obeying God's Law (commanded by Him) is a work of the flesh???

Regards

Well that is not possible to keep the law by the letter, but by the Spirit. So no man can look to the written code and keep the law, they must die to the law and live by the spirit.

For the law is spiritual. If a man does not have the Spirit? they are not saved nor can they ever through keeping the written code, ever be saved. Only when a man admits he cannot keep the law can he receive the FREE GIFT of righteousness and the Holy Spirit, and having received the Spirit by faith, one must walk in the Spirit by faith.

If some of you would stop trying to teach others long enough to learn from someone God has called to teach, you might very well learn to live a life of righteousness, peach and joy, in the Holy Spirit. But there is no help for those who are in the pride of their flesh. Only when the hypocrite is knocked from his religious high horse, can his eyes be opened to the truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...righteousness, peach and joy, in the Holy Spirit.

My favorite fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law is the most obvious indicator of how we can know if we've been walking according to the new way of the Spirit, or the old way of the written code. Walking in the new way of the Spirit violates no law. Relying on the old way of the written code to be righteous will lead a person to ultimately violate the very code they seek to keep.

 

[francisdesales]

If some of you would stop trying to teach others long enough to learn from someone God has called to teach, you might very well learn to live a life of righteousness, peach and joy, in the Holy Spirit. But there is no help for those who are in the pride of their flesh. Only when the hypocrite is knocked from his religious high horse, can his eyes be opened to the truth.

Right back at you. By your own words, you are called out.

I cannot comprehend how you came to believe some of the lunatic ideas you got, like no one can obey the Law, that Christ fulfilled it (meaning it is abrogated)

OR, the kicker:

that the God of Love placed a Law into effect that commands death to those who fail to keep it. What sort of cruel God do you believe that commands death for not keeping a law that they cannot keep? ALL THE WHILE inspiring Moses to tell us that these laws are NOT too difficult to keep. You were "called" to preach THAT by God???? That God is a liar????? :shocked!

Apparently, your God is not a God of truth. Or you are thoroughly confused on your calling, sir...

You need to step back and consider that you are FAR AWAY from Biblical Christianity and contradicting the most basic tenets of Christian belief.

I am sorry to have say such things. Please accept them in the spirit of brotherly correction. I am always open to learning and discussing theology. But your attitudes, pointed out by others, is not in line with how a disciple of Christ is to treat others. That is why it is "difficult" to believe you were called by God to do any preaching.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I believe we are walking on the same path, maybe not holding hands, but going in the same direction nonetheless. If you want to start a thread on this, I will surely follow you as this will get to confusing in here. New start with fresh ideas I think. Maybe we can begin when the Law began, in the Garden of Eden. Don't know? So much ground to discuss. PM me.

Glad that we generally agree. There does seem to be a lot of confusion on "the law", despite it being highly praised, holy, and even compared to the sending of the Messiah in John 1:17. The problem Paul points out is the ABUSE of the law, legalism, not the Law itself. When we are moved by the Spirit of God (yes, OT figures at times are said to have that same Spirit), we can and will obey the Law, being just, as people of the OT who also faithfully followed God, trusting in His mercy and forgiveness. God does not desire cultic legalism, but mercy and love.

Regards

 

[Ryan]

Glad that we generally agree. There does seem to be a lot of confusion on "the law", despite it being highly praised, holy, and even compared to the sending of the Messiah in John 1:17. The problem Paul points out is the ABUSE of the law, legalism, not the Law itself. When we are moved by the Spirit of God (yes, OT figures at times are said to have that same Spirit), we can and will obey the Law, being just, as people of the OT who also faithfully followed God, trusting in His mercy and forgiveness. God does not desire cultic legalism, but mercy and love.

Regards

Amen to that. The Law is based on love and mercy. :amen

 

[francisdesales]

Amen to that. The Law is based on love and mercy. :amen

Amen, it always was, if the legalists would have seen it - and now, God has written that Law on our hearts, not just stone tablets!!

Praise God for His mercy!

Regards

 

[Deborah13]

You put a smiley face to a comment that "no one can keep the letter because that would be a work of the flesh"???

THAT'S the Gospel??? THAT'S the good news???



Deborah, we need to talk. Using your words or someone else's, please explain to me the concept of obeying God's Law (commanded by Him) is a work of the flesh???

Regards

Yes, and I'd smiley it again. It was directed at the post as a whole not just at Mitspa's dramatic first statement. I knew and understood where he was going.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Glad that we generally agree. There does seem to be a lot of confusion on "the law", despite it being highly praised, holy, and even compared to the sending of the Messiah in John 1:17. The problem Paul points out is the ABUSE of the law, legalism, not the Law itself. When we are moved by the Spirit of God (yes, OT figures at times are said to have that same Spirit), we can and will obey the Law, being just, as people of the OT who also faithfully followed God, trusting in His mercy and forgiveness. God does not desire cultic legalism, but mercy and love.

Regards

I am somewhat confused by what you are saying.
I've never in my life ever known anyone to even be able to keep the 10 commandments, never mind all the other laws.
Are you saying that you are able to do this?

 

[Deborah13]

that the God of Love placed a Law into effect that commands death to those who fail to keep it. What sort of cruel God do you believe that commands death for not keeping a law that they cannot keep?

Yes, I believe that's exacting what He did, not because He was cruel but because He wanted us to be His children, totally reliant on Him for everything.

ALL THE WHILE inspiring Moses to tell us that these laws are NOT too difficult to keep. You were "called" to preach THAT by God???? That God is a liar????? :shocked!

Please give me the scripture you are referring to where Moses said this.
To begin this reading one has to start by reading from Exodus 19-25 at least.

3 So Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the Lord has said we will do.” 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. 6 And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has said we will do, and be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words.”

It isn't until Ex. 32 that we see the tables of stone and while Mose is gone with Aaron in charge what do they do?

If anyone were capable of obeying the letter of the law, Jesus would not have had to fulfill it.
Yes, we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us so that if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, but who does? Paul said there was still evil in his flesh that he warred against, did he say he ALWAYS won? Is there one person in the NT that said they always Won, NO. Even Peter in fear deny that he knew Jesus, he did NOT deny Jesus, just that he knew him. Was that lie a willful sin, yes. Did Jesus rebuke him for it or tell him to repent or he wouldn't be saved, No. Peter was repentant on his own because of what he felt in his heart, not his head and not because he was afraid the Lord would reject him.


Funny how that works, that the GOODNESS of GOD not the WRATH of God brings one to repentance.

 

[Mitspa]

,

Right back at you. By your own words, you are called out.

I cannot comprehend how you came to believe some of the lunatic ideas you got, like no one can obey the Law, that Christ fulfilled it (meaning it is abrogated)

OR, the kicker:

that the God of Love placed a Law into effect that commands death to those who fail to keep it. What sort of cruel God do you believe that commands death for not keeping a law that they cannot keep? ALL THE WHILE inspiring Moses to tell us that these laws are NOT too difficult to keep. You were "called" to preach THAT by God???? That God is a liar????? :shocked!

Apparently, your God is not a God of truth. Or you are thoroughly confused on your calling, sir...

You need to step back and consider that you are FAR AWAY from Biblical Christianity and contradicting the most basic tenets of Christian belief.

I am sorry to have say such things. Please accept them in the spirit of brotherly correction. I am always open to learning and discussing theology. But your attitudes, pointed out by others, is not in line with how a disciple of Christ is to treat others. That is why it is "difficult" to believe you were called by God to do any preaching.

Regards

Yes the same God that demanded the death of His Own Son, for the sin of men, gave the law and called it the ministry of death and condemnation. Paul makes all these things very clear! that the purpose of the law was to make all men guilty and worthy of death, We must die to the law to walk in the spirit. So I have some who say my doctrines have never been taught in the reformed church, I know this is not true and many of my doctrines are in agreement with long taught calvinist doctrines. Then I have those who claim I am blinded by mainstream dotrines and tradition?? Boy I wish you guys would get together and decide if what I am teaching is new and "lunitic' or old and filled with blinding tradition?

Yes it is an absolute FACT that Christ fulfill every jot and tittle of the law. For He said that none could pass away until it was ALL FULFILLED. he said do not think I come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it!


So yes, Christ alone could and did fulfill the law.

 

[Mitspa]

Glad that we generally agree. There does seem to be a lot of confusion on "the law", despite it being highly praised, holy, and even compared to the sending of the Messiah in John 1:17. The problem Paul points out is the ABUSE of the law, legalism, not the Law itself. When we are moved by the Spirit of God (yes, OT figures at times are said to have that same Spirit), we can and will obey the Law, being just, as people of the OT who also faithfully followed God, trusting in His mercy and forgiveness. God does not desire cultic legalism, but mercy and love.

Regards

What? we are told that the glory of the law is NOT TO BE COMPARED to that of Christ. 2 Cor 3

And John is NOT COMPARING Christ and the law, he is making a clear contrast!
1 John 1:17-18 For the law was given by moses but GRACE AND TRUTH CAME BY JESUS CHRIST. there in no truth apart from it coming by His grace.
:18 For no man has seen God at anytime; but the only begotten son, HE HAS DECLARED HIM.
now according to the law no man could know the Image of God, even when the law was given God says "take heed that you have not seen My Image" So even the commandment not to make any image of God, was so that Gods Image would only be seen in The Son.
[edited]

 

[Deborah13]

Amen, it always was, if the legalists would have seen it - and now, God has written that Law on our hearts, not just stone tablets!!

Praise God for His mercy!

Regards

This is true, written on our hearts and minds. Now let me ask you this, you say praise God for His mercy, why? I don't know if you just declaring a truth or if you were referring to God being merciful in writing them on our hearts and minds.

Please believe me when I say that I do not doubt that you are saved, I hear your heart for God.

 

[francisdesales]

I am somewhat confused by what you are saying.
I've never in my life ever known anyone to even be able to keep the 10 commandments, never mind all the other laws.
Are you saying that you are able to do this?

Of course not!!! There is NO EXPECTATION, ANYWHERE in the bible that we must keep every dictate of the Law - UNLESS, we are trying to EARN salvation!!! However, God, even in the OT, was offering salvation freely to anyone who (even not absolutely perfectly) dedicated their hearts and souls to God. David was the apple of God's eye. We know the history of David. But when you read those wonderful Psalms, you can see the act of a faithful and loving follower who was seeking God.

You are no doubt aware that the Law includes provisions for the forgiveness of trangressions??? Even the OT had a cultic sacrificial system. While not perfect (as Hebrews explains), it was KNOWN, by GOD HIMSELF, that His People WOULD falter - and in His mercy, would forgive them. What is more amazing is that God would forgive WHEN THE PEOPLE ASKED! No jumping through hoops were required to receive forgiveness.

I am not sure where the idea that "we must be absolutely sinless" to be pleasing to God is found. And it is absolutely insane to think that God instituted a Law that no one could perfectly follow - and condemn people to death if they disobeyed it, WHILE TELLING MOSES through divine inspiration, that it was NOT DIFFICULT to follow...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

This is true, written on our hearts and minds. Now let me ask you this, you say praise God for His mercy, why? I don't know if you just declaring a truth or if you were referring to God being merciful in writing them on our hearts and minds.

Please believe me when I say that I do not doubt that you are saved, I hear your heart for God.

thanks, I appreciate not being condemned because we disagree.

As you know, one of the disadvantages of the Law of the OT is that the stone tablets did NOT aid people in obeying the Law from the heart. The MAIN promise of the New Covenant is that it would be written in our hearts as the Spirit of God was poured out on us. God desires an inner conversion. Man (not the Law, since it is holy) tries to take short cuts. The sin within him has a tendency to obey the letter of the Law WHILE remaining evil in the heart. The OT minor prophets are full of such warnings to the people. God doesn't need blood of goats. He desires mercy and sacrifice, care of the poor and the widows. James says this is true religion. The intent of Scriptures, in my opinion, is the contrast between the legalist, who does "just enough" to satisfy the letter of the law while having evil intent vs the man who is just and pursues the spiritual intent of the Law. The later will be just in God's eyes (because of God's grace, not because they earned it).

Deborah, this is at the heart of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. "You have heard it said thou shall not commit adultery. Bit I say if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have commited adultery" (I am paraphasing from memory, so be gentle if I forgot a word..) Jesus is telling us the TRUE meaning of the Law. That is what it means to FULFILL it. To make it complete - as in "properly following it". Just avoiding "penetration" with someone you lust after is NOT obedience to the spirit of the Law. Avoiding lustful thoughts is the true intent of the Law, and Jesus teaches that true meaning of God's Law - that we must follow, as Christians.

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am not sure where the idea that "we must be absolutely sinless" to be pleasing to God is found.

This is the understanding that Paul is addressing in Romans 2, and why it's important to distinguish between 'justification' (being made, or found to be righteous), and being saved (being delivered from the curse and wrath of God). Justification requires (someone's) perfect obedience. While the obedience presented at the judgment that 'saves us' (testifying that we have the righteousness of the perfect man, Jesus, legally applied to us) will not be perfect but will still be able to testify to the righteousness of Christ we have.

The point Paul is driving at is you have to keep all of the law to be justified by the law (Deuteronomy 6:25 Romans 2:1). As he shows them, no one, including them, does that. No mortal has ever done that. Therefore, no one is justified by keeping the law. But you surely would be if you did/could keep it, just as his audience is sure they are doing, but, as he shows them, really aren't.

There's no such thing as a 'law keeper' who violates any part of the law (James 2:10-11). A 'law keeper' is one who keeps all the law, all of the time. No such mortal lives, or has ever lived (Romans 3:9-10). If you think about it you can see how ridiculous it is to think you're a good law abiding citizen because you drive the speed limit, but murdered your neighbor last weekend, and then somehow make a claim of righteous law keeping based on your driving record. But that's exactly the kind of appeal we humans make in regard to righteousness.

Righteousness is an all or nothing proposition. That's why we need Christ's righteousness. Which comes by having your unrighteousness wiped away and forgiven as a gracious free gift, and replaced with his legal standing of righteousness, not by the exchange of, or condition for, work accomplished...except the 'work' of believing, just as Paul says.

Justification is indeed by the 'work' of believing apart from any other work. Only the blood of Christ can remove unrighteousness. Believing in the blood to remove unrighteousness is how we access the gracious gift of that blood to do that (Romans 5:2 NIV). Any manifestation of that trust is just that--a manifestation of that trust, not the actual trusting itself. Trusting and, say, baptism, are by definition two different things.

And it is absolutely insane to think that God instituted a Law that no one could perfectly follow - and condemn people to death if they disobeyed it, WHILE TELLING MOSES through divine inspiration, that it was NOT DIFFICULT to follow...

I can't think of anything in the law, in and of itself, that is somehow hard to do. What makes it hard and impossible to follow is the restless, rebellious, fallen nature of man. But in and of itself I don't think the law requires the impossible--just what is hard and impossible relative to sinful man. What is hard and impossible, and 'wrong' about the law is man's inability and unwillingness to perfectly obey it (Hebrews 8:7-8).

Law, even a perfect law, is just so incredibly unfitting for a rebellious race of people as a way--a guideline--to right standing before God (justification). But the New Covenant--faith in Jesus Christ--is the right and fitting way for a rebellious and faulty people to have right standing before God. The old covenant--the covenant of law--made no one perfect (Hebrews 10:1). The New Covenant--the Covenant of faith in Christ--does make perfect (Hebrews 10:14).

 

[Mitspa]

Righteousness is an all or nothing proposition.

I can't think of anything in the law, in and of itself, that is somehow hard to do. What makes it hard and impossible to follow is the restless, rebellious, fallen nature of man. But in and of itself I don't think the law requires the impossible--just what is hard and impossible relative to sinful man. What is hard and impossible, and 'wrong' about the law is man's inability and unwillingness to perfectly obey it (Hebrews 8:7-8).

Law, even a perfect law, is just so incredibly unfitting for a rebellious race of people as a way--a guideline--to right standing before God (justification). But the New Covenant--faith in Jesus Christ--is the right and fitting way for a rebellious and faulty people to have right standing before God. The old covenant--the covenant of law--made no one perfect (Hebrews 10:1). The New Covenant--the Covenant of faith in Christ--does make perfect (Hebrews 10:14).

I have agree with much of your last few post Jetho.
The issue of the law goes to the very heart, it is not just about action it is the thought and intention of mans heart that God desires to see in agreement with His will. The Lord showed us that adultry is not just in the action but in the heart. Likewise all the commandments have deeper intentions that man can understand. In truth no man can love God until God has first loved Him. No man has understood that commandment until the Holy Spirit came and shed Gods love abroad in the heart.

All men are in trangression of the commandment" thou shalt not covet" until the Holy Spirit has brought the Kingdom of God unto them, and they no longer live the things in this world but have set hearts mind to inherit the Kingdom.

So again a man cannot look to the letter and see and obey what is written. It must come from the Spirit as we behold the Word of God, who is Christ.

See we have the living Word, we need not to look to the letter.

 

[Mitspa]

thanks, I appreciate not being condemned because we disagree.

As you know, one of the disadvantages of the Law of the OT is that the stone tablets did NOT aid people in obeying the Law from the heart. The MAIN promise of the New Covenant is that it would be written in our hearts as the Spirit of God was poured out on us. God desires an inner conversion. Man (not the Law, since it is holy) tries to take short cuts. The sin within him has a tendency to obey the letter of the Law WHILE remaining evil in the heart. The OT minor prophets are full of such warnings to the people. God doesn't need blood of goats. He desires mercy and sacrifice, care of the poor and the widows. James says this is true religion. The intent of Scriptures, in my opinion, is the contrast between the legalist, who does "just enough" to satisfy the letter of the law while having evil intent vs the man who is just and pursues the spiritual intent of the Law. The later will be just in God's eyes (because of God's grace, not because they earned it).

Deborah, this is at the heart of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. "You have heard it said thou shall not commit adultery. Bit I say if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have commited adultery" (I am paraphasing from memory, so be gentle if I forgot a word..) Jesus is telling us the TRUE meaning of the Law. That is what it means to FULFILL it. To make it complete - as in "properly following it". Just avoiding "penetration" with someone you lust after is NOT obedience to the spirit of the Law. Avoiding lustful thoughts is the true intent of the Law, and Jesus teaches that true meaning of God's Law - that we must follow, as Christians.

Regards

So if all men have the element of sin in their flesh, as the scriptures clearly teach, there is no way to keep the law by the flesh. We must walk in the Spirit and the Spirit will love others through us , thus we are to set our minds on Gods love, not the written code. We must die to the law and "reckon" all attempts of the flesh to keep the written code as vain and useless. So the intention of the commandment is not fulfilled by the flesh of man, but by the Spirit of God. Even in this there is therefore now no condemnation. So even as we learn the ways of the Spirit and move into this perfect love, the law CANNOT make a charge of sin against the believer, for he is justified by Christ. So the law stands as a witness to Christ only.

 

[Mitspa]

I say and I warn those who warn others. Christ Jesus was the Word made flesh he was the law and the prophets in all their intention was to speak of Him. He alone fulfilled that which the written code intended. We see the law fulfilled as He walked the earth. We see that which the prophets wrote fulfilled in Him alone. He was the Word of God! We see that man in his very best attempts to keep the written code of law, are the very ones who deny Christ. For God stood in their midst and they sought how they might kill Him. We see in His Love for man the intention of the law. We see that the law is not fulfilled when we do not steal but when we love the thief as He loves us.

So I again warn you who warn others, God desires mercy and not sacrifice. For judgement will be without mercy for those who have shown no mercy, but mercy will rejoice over judgment.

 

[francisdesales]

This is the understanding that Paul is addressing in Romans 2, and why it's important to distinguish between 'justification' (being made, or found to be righteous), and being saved (being delivered from the curse and wrath of God). Justification requires (someone's) perfect obedience. While the obedience presented at the judgment that 'saves us' (testifying that we have the righteousness of the perfect man, Jesus, legally applied to us) will not be perfect but will still be able to testify to the righteousness of Christ we have.

The point Paul is driving at is you have to keep all of the law to be justified by the law (Deuteronomy 6:25 Romans 2:1). As he shows them, no one, including them, does that. No mortal has ever done that. Therefore, no one is justified by keeping the law. But you surely would be if you did/could keep it, just as his audience is sure they are doing, but, as he shows them, really aren't.

There's no such thing as a 'law keeper' who violates any part of the law (James 2:10-11). A 'law keeper' is one who keeps all the law, all of the time. No such mortal lives, or has ever lived (Romans 3:9-10). If you think about it you can see how ridiculous it is to think you're a good law abiding citizen because you drive the speed limit, but murdered your neighbor last weekend, and then somehow make a claim of righteous law keeping based on your driving record. But that's exactly the kind of appeal we humans make in regard to righteousness.

Righteousness is an all or nothing proposition. That's why we need Christ's righteousness. Which comes by having your unrighteousness wiped away and forgiven as a gracious free gift, and replaced with his legal standing of righteousness, not by the exchange of, or condition for, work accomplished...except the 'work' of believing, just as Paul says.

Justification is indeed by the 'work' of believing apart from any other work. Only the blood of Christ can remove unrighteousness. Believing in the blood to remove unrighteousness is how we access the gracious gift of that blood to do that (Romans 5:2 NIV). Any manifestation of that trust is just that--a manifestation of that trust, not the actual trusting itself. Trusting and, say, baptism, are by definition two different things.




I can't think of anything in the law, in and of itself, that is somehow hard to do. What makes it hard and impossible to follow is the restless, rebellious, fallen nature of man. But in and of itself I don't think the law requires the impossible--just what is hard and impossible relative to sinful man. What is hard and impossible, and 'wrong' about the law is man's inability and unwillingness to perfectly obey it (Hebrews 8:7-8).

Law, even a perfect law, is just so incredibly unfitting for a rebellious race of people as a way--a guideline--to right standing before God (justification). But the New Covenant--faith in Jesus Christ--is the right and fitting way for a rebellious and faulty people to have right standing before God. The old covenant--the covenant of law--made no one perfect (Hebrews 10:1). The New Covenant--the Covenant of faith in Christ--does make perfect (Hebrews 10:14).

I agree with the gist of what you are saying. I would like to add some comments and discuss a few things you said - and see what you think - but I'm going to be busy today. So please bear with me, I'll get back to this either later today or tommorrow.

I think one of the Bible's biggest themes is touched on the our daily Mass reading:

"You (God) planted them. They have taken root, they keep on growing and bearing fruit. You are upon their lips, but far from their innermost thoughts. You, O Lord, know me, you see me, you have found that at heart I am with you." Jeremiah 12:2

The contrast between the faithful follower of God and the one who does outward works of the Torah, but no faithful and God-seeking inner disposition. It is "everywhere" in the OT. Legalists vs Lovers of God. That is the great argument of Paul in Romans. The Jews, with their Torah, were not "real Jews", circumcised only on the outside, while some Gentiles showed that they had a "Law" on their hearts (and were going to heaven...), being "true Jews" because they were spiritually circumcised. Having the Law did not guarantee anything for the legalist.

I'll comment on James 2 later, suffise to say that it is addressed to legalists who are trying to earn salvation, not those under grace, who have had an inner conversion and are CONTINUING to follow the original designs of the Torah - faithful worship, praise and love of God, and love of our neighbor.

Btw, the etymology of "Jew" is "praiser of God". Paul is saying that a true Jew is not one born a Jew, or who follows the Law legalistically, but one is a Jew who actually pursues the Lord and praises Him with a humble heart.

More to come later,

Thanks and God Bless.