(Some) OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

[Deborah13]

You copy the address like you indicated but then instead of pasting it into the post you highlight the post number and do a few things to show it as I did.
1. Click on the chain link in the bar above the post. The one that does NOT have the X under it. A dialog box comes up and you paste the link in there.
2. Because this site does not highlight this link well, you go in and choose a color for it and underline it.
3. Hit Post Reply.

OK Thanks.

 

[reba]

It would be really helpful if you would be more specific. Obviously you didn't include Kathi in your comment, so WHO accused someone of being a liar? I didn't see post 47 before it was deleted so am I correct in assuming it was in that post?

My post was not meant to be specific just a general example of how words can sound..

 

[DRS81]

Hi John,

OSAS / Eternal Security, is one of the five points of Calvinism, and is taught within it by the improper exegesis of scripture.
The fact is it is intrinsically linked to the entire TULIP doctrine so debating this aspect inevitably leads to the other four points.
Heb 6:4-6 and 10:38-39 demonstrates OSAS is not correct, as does 2 Thess 2:3.
What is important to note is that supporters of OSAS will equivocate on the word apostasy, to connote LOSE. We don't LOSE our salvation, but we can walk away from it as many have done, including one of the biggest evangelists that originally partnered with Billy Graham in the early days of their ministry. After experiencing Heb 6:4-6, he(Charles Templeton) walked away in a state of apostasy. Jesus said we will inherit eternal life IF we endure. That is up to us. If we give up there is no security of salvation, just certainty of eternal punishment.

Hi Stan. Heb 6:4-6 is speaking of apostates, when the Bible speaks of apostates they are referring to nonbelievers, not born again christians. It is part of the born again christian's inheritance to endure, there is no other option for them. Heb 10:38-39 is not talking about losing your salvation. 2 Thess 2:3 has nothing to do with Eternal Security. Calvinism is false also. Lastly, if they give up they were nonbelievers and never born again to begin with. - DRS81

 

[JLB]

My post was not meant to be specific just a general example of how words can sound..

 

[Stan1953]

John 17 makes no specific mention of Judas and since we were earlier shown that Judas was "a devil " how can we assume he was ever saved ? Being "one of the twelve " was a position Judas held in the ministry and it seems from the beginning he wasn't a faithful follower of Jesus. Do you have any other scriptures ?

The twelve included Judas so I don't know you want to sere? John 6 also shows Jesus chose these men. The fact that Jesus as God knew what would happen doesn't mean Judas never believed.

 

[agua.]

The twelve included Judas so I don't know you want to sere? John 6 also shows Jesus chose these men. The fact that Jesus as God knew what would happen doesn't mean Judas never believed.

Jesus chose Judas to be in the ministry but this choosing doesn't imply belief or salvation of the 12. We're told very early in the piece that Judas' heart wasn't inline with his position when Jesus identified him as a devil and when he coveted money as the treasurer.

Joh 12:5-6 KJV Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? (6) This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Judas being chosen in the 12 wasn't an indication of his faith or salvic position. For instance do you suggest the people who did great things in Jesus name and cry "Lord Lord" in the last day were true believers ?

 

[Stan1953]

Hi Stan. Heb 6:4-6 is speaking of apostates, when the Bible speaks of apostates they are referring to nonbelievers, not born again christians. It is part of the born again christian's inheritance to endure, there is no other option for them. Heb 10:38-39 is not talking about losing your salvation. 2 Thess 2:3 has nothing to do with Eternal Security. Calvinism is false also. Lastly, if they give up they were nonbelievers and never born again to begin with. - DRS81

Yeh sorry, no.

those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift,
who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age

These are Christians, and I fail to understand why you would equivocate on such an obvious description?
Apostate is someone who NO LONGER believes in God's provision. One who has fallen away as v6 states. They have fallen away from what they were in v4-5 as I have quoted above.

Heb 10:38-39 is talking about shrinking back from your salvation. Again you equivocate by using "lose" when the issue is apostasy. Why is it you revert to "lose" all the time?
2 Thess 2:3 states;
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,


EDITED reba
God Bless.

 

[Stan1953]

Jesus chose Judas to be in the ministry but this choosing doesn't imply belief or salvation of the 12. We're told very early in the piece that Judas' heart wasn't inline with his position when Jesus identified him as a devil and when he coveted money as the treasurer.
Joh 12:5-6 KJV Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? (6) This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
Judas being chosen in the 12 wasn't an indication of his faith or salvic position. For instance do you suggest the people who did great things in Jesus name and cry "Lord Lord" in the last day were true believers ?

Then it wasn't an indication for any of the apostles spiritual status. Sadly I feel you are judging Judas by what the end result was.
Luke 8:13 or 14 could describe Judas.

 

[DRS81]

Yeh sorry, no.

those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift,
who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age

These are Christians, and I fail to understand why you would equivocate on such an obvious description?
Apostate is someone who NO LONGER believes in God's provision. One who has fallen away as v6 states. They have fallen away from what they were in v4-5 as I have quoted above.

Heb 10:38-39 is talking about shrinking back from your salvation. Again you equivocate by using "lose" when the issue is apostasy. Why is it you revert to "lose" all the time?
2 Thess 2:3 states;
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Sadly all I see in this response is refusal to accept what those scriptures teach, and no support for your denials.
I see no reason to continue with you on this discussion if you won't see the truth of scripture.
God Bless.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking about apostates, not born again christians. That scripture is used plenty to prove OSAS is false, but I disagree with your interpretation . edited reba

 

[reba]

a·pos·tate
əˈpäsˌtāt,-tit/
noun

1. 1.
   a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
   synonyms:dissenter, defector, deserter, traitor, backslider,turncoat; More
   adjective

1. 1.
   abandoning a religious or political belief or principle.

How can one abandon or desert turncoat if they never were?

 

[Stan1953]

My post was not meant to be specific just a general example of how words can sound..

Sorry, then it was too general as I have no idea how I fit into it?

 

[agua.]

Then it wasn't an indication for any of the apostles spiritual status. Sadly I feel you are judging Judas by what the end result was.
Luke 8:13 or 14 could describe Judas.

Correct it wasn't an indication of the salvic position of any of the 12. We were told however that Judas was a devil and a theif so it's clear he wasn't a true follower. We're also shown that people who say they follow Jesus doesn't necessarily indicate that they're true believers when they cry Lord Lord as Jesus said he never knew them don't you think ?

Luke8:13,14 don't indicate a true believer. Luke 8:15 does.

 

[Stan1953]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking about apostates, not born again christians. That scripture is used plenty to prove OSAS is false, but I disagree with your interpretation . edited reba

Well if I am wrong then please show me from scripture. Opining is not proof. Who was Heb 6 addressed to?

 

[DRS81]

a·pos·tate
əˈpäsˌtāt,-tit/
noun

1. 1.
   a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
   synonyms:dissenter, defector, deserter, traitor, backslider,turncoat; More
   adjective

1. 1.
   abandoning a religious or political belief or principle.

How can one abandon or desert turncoat if they never were?

They (think) they were saved, that's the devil's scheme. It's impossible for a born again christian to abandon his faith completely, and that's what apostates do. If you're indwelled with the Holy Spirit, it will then never leave you.

 

[agua.]

a·pos·tate
əˈpäsˌtāt,-tit/
noun

1. 1.
   a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
   synonyms:dissenter, defector, deserter, traitor, backslider,turncoat; More
   adjective

1. 1.
   abandoning a religious or political belief or principle.

How can one abandon or desert turncoat if they never were?

Abandoning a principle isn't the same as abandoning faith. There are many people who designate themselves as Christian who simply aren't faithful.

 

[reba]

Agree ... This is one of those topics after jumping the fence a zillon times i wont pick a side... :tongue

 

[DRS81]

Well if I am wrong then please show me from scripture. Opining is not proof. Who was Heb 6 addressed to?

Bare with me, and I will give you a response tonight.

 

[Stan1953]

Correct it wasn't an indication of the salvic position of any of the 12. We were told however that Judas was a devil and a theif so it's clear he wasn't a true follower. We're also shown that people who say they follow Jesus doesn't necessarily indicate that they're true believers when they cry Lord Lord as Jesus said he never knew them don't you think ?
Luke8:13,14 don't indicate a true believer. Luke 8:15 does.

Actually your are told AFTER the fact, after it became apparent.
Luke 8:13-14 states;
Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Sounds like apostates to me...they believe for a while then fall away.

The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
This does not say they didn't believe, it says they don't mature. Which is what Heb 6 starts out with, going on to maturity.
The NT does not used the qualifier TRUE with believer. A believer IS a believer in the proper context of the word used within the NT.
Claiming one is, does not mean they are, but when the NT says someone believes, they do.

 

[agua.]

Actually your are told AFTER the fact, after it became apparent.
Luke 8:13-14 states;
Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Sounds like apostates to me...they believe for a while then fall away.

The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
This does not say they didn't believe, it says they don't mature. Which is what Heb 6 starts out with, going on to maturity.
The NT does not used the qualifier TRUE with believer. A believer IS a believer in the proper context of the word used within the NT.
Claiming one is, does not mean they are, but when the NT says someone believes, they do.

You forgot to address my questions dialogue is good.

Judas being chosen in the 12 wasn't an indication of his faith or salvic position. For instance do you suggest the people who did great things in Jesus name and cry "Lord Lord" in the last day were true believers ?

We're also shown that people who say they follow Jesus doesn't necessarily indicate that they're true believers when they cry Lord Lord as Jesus said he never knew them don't you think ?

 

[Stan1953]

They (think) they were saved, that's the devil's scheme. It's impossible for a born again christian to abandon his faith completely, and that's what apostates do. If you're indwelled with the Holy Spirit, it will then never leave you.

That is imposing your opinion on scripture when that is NOT indicated, AND, the word 'impossible', is used to indicate one cannot renew themselves to repentance. You seem to be asserting dogmatic opinion rather than exegetical understanding?
Part of debate is to not just deny but to refute.