(Some) OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

[Stan1953]

Yes, the Whole Book of Scripture!
Much of it concerns warning believers to endure until the end, and many other little items
... so that they might be wise enough to maintain their free gift of grace-faith ...
righteousness = eternal life!
Note: a gift may easily be thrown away, discarded, rejected, etc.

God chooses who will believe,

Disagree

 

[DRS81]

Yep.

What are your thoughts on Charles Stanley, because I rather not go into this if your bias against certain authors. Hebrews 6:4-6.

 

[Deborah13]

What are your thoughts on Charles Stanley, because I rather not go into this if your bias against certain authors. Hebrews 6:4-6.

I'd like to hear what Charles Stanley has to say, if you don't mind.

 

[DRS81]

I'd like to hear what Charles Stanley has to say, if you don't mind.

Cool, check out his book called Eternal Security by Dr Charles Stanley. It's very good, and will strengthen your walk and assurance in Christ.

 

[Stan1953]

What are your thoughts on Charles Stanley, because I rather not go into this if your bias against certain authors. Hebrews 6:4-6.

I've watched him preach on TV and that's it. He's a fine preacher as is Chuck Swindoll, and John McArthur, but as they are all RT, nothing they have to say on that subject will sway me.
I'm far more interested in what you know and can support from scripture than what others can.

 

[Stan1953]

Yes Jesus was being metaphorical because devil is either satan or one of his minions. Jesus said though that He chose Judas yet he was a devil ( slanderer or whatever other negative connotation ). We also see that Judas being true to this was a thief and a betrayer of Jesus.
You feel comfortable with traitor because it suits your premise but Jesus said he chose Judas knowing He was a devil. Also prophecy shows Judas was always going to be this so I'm not sure how you can suggest he was ever a true believer.

It's slanderer or traitor. I gave you the Teknia reference. As Judas didn't slander Jesus but betrayed him I would call that being a traitor.
What Jesus foreknew in His capacity as God does not mean Judas knew that, and if you read Luke 22:3 you will note Satan enters Judas before the Passover dinner. That is when he decided to betray Jesus. That is when he became apostate. That all the writers of the Gospels refer to Judas as the "one who would betray Him", only shows they wrote it in a historical context. Only Jesus knew before Judas betrayed Him.
Luke 6:16
Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

You're equivocating what a christian is. Why do you suggest fall away or shrink back infers a change of faith ? Do you suggest the people who cry Lord Lord at the last day were ever Christian ?
Luke tells us the process people may go through in becoming a Christian. There's no middle ground here you're either Luke 8:13,14 and unsaved or Luke 8:15 and saved. I think you confuse someone who says or thinks they're christian with a true believer.

Not at all, and I have explained it. Sadly you refuse to answer the question as to what those believers were being warned not to fall away or shrink back from. There is a very good parable in Matthew 20:1-16 NIV, that shows clearly, that even those who are saved at the last moment, will get the same as those who were saved their entire life.
Jesus explains the parable in Luke 8 and in verse 13 he says; receive the word with joy when they hear it...They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
They believed and fell away, what Hebrews warns about.
v14 says; stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
They also believed but didn't grow to maturity. These are the explanations of Jesus, not my bias or equivocation.

I didn't say all Jews were believers but they all were professed believers in the same way all Christians are professed believers but not true believers. I'm not sure why you don't see that a Jew was only a true believer if they were faithful ie. do you agree all Jews believed in Yahweh ?

You said; "The Jews were all professed believers", which is not factual or even provable from scripture. Nowhere does the NT refer to believers as 'professed'.
No I don't believe all Jews believed in Yahweh. That was not only a religious belief system it was also a nation. The OT documents that was not the case, but the NT does not qualify believers as you would like it to. When in says 'believer', or Christian, or those of 'The Way', that IS what they are, believers. The NT did not have to equivocate like many try to do today to further their dogmatic POV.
Even Ananias and Sapphira were true believers when the Holy Spirit struck them down. Yes they lied to the Holy Spirit but they still believed.

It's directly related to the issue of true belief and shows that a true Jew ( believer ) is one who believes with the heart/inwardly. The same as a professing Christian isn't necessarily a true believer and is shown when Jesus denies ever knowing some.

It's not, because Paul was dealing with the OT Law when he said a Jew was only a Jew when he was circumcised inwardly, EVEN under that law. It had nothing to do with professing, it had to do with how God viewed this issue. The new covenant brought this into a new light and perspective. Even if Jews did both, they were still considered unbelievers if they did not take Jesus into their hearts as their savior. The same requirement of Rom 10:9-10 applied to them as well.

John was saying that the people who left were once amid them but they were never really part of them. I agree you can't have true faith without profession but you seem to be suggesting that professing always implies true faith. Is this what you're suggesting ? This doesn't fit with Jesus telling people who confess His name that he never knew them. Are you suggesting every professed Christian today is a true believer and will be saved ?

I'm quoting scripture, you are implying that I am inferring when I am not. Rom 10:9-11 makes it clear what must be done. If it is, then v13 is the result; “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[agua.]

It's slanderer or traitor. I gave you the Teknia reference. As Judas didn't slander Jesus but betrayed him I would call that being a traitor.
What Jesus foreknew in His capacity as God does not mean Judas knew that, and if you read Luke 22:3 you will note Satan enters Judas before the Passover dinner. That is when he decided to betray Jesus. That is when he became apostate. That all the writers of the Gospels refer to Judas as the "one who would betray Him", only shows they wrote it in a historical context. Only Jesus knew before Judas betrayed Him.
Luke 6:16
Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

It wasn't simply that Jesus foreknew Judas would betray Him it's also that Judas showed through his actions that he wasn't a true follower. He stole when he was trusted with the bag etc. Jesus knew who Judas was at the time He selected him into the 12 for the very reason that he was a devil.

I accept the definition of traitor now but not in the sense that you suggest it means he was a believer. He simply betrayed someone he was supposed to support. If Judas was prophesied to do what he did how can we suggest it's only after the fact that he became an unbeliever. This seems very odd to me especially since he showed throughout the ministry he acted contrary to his position.

Not at all, and I have explained it. Sadly you refuse to answer the question as to what those believers were being warned not to fall away or shrink back from. There is a very good parable in Matthew 20:1-16 NIV, that shows clearly, that even those who are saved at the last moment, will get the same as those who were saved their entire life.
Jesus explains the parable in Luke 8 and in verse 13 he says; receive the word with joy when they hear it...They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
They believed and fell away, what Hebrews warns about.
v14 says; stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
They also believed but didn't grow to maturity. These are the explanations of Jesus, not my bias or equivocation.

But you must endure to be saved which is the point of the admonition to not fall away. Matthew 20 1-16 is about those who come in late I'm not sure how it relates to falling away.

Believing for a while doesn't imply salvation I'm not sure why you think it does. If this is true you must accept that a person who falls away can't ever return is this your position ?

Heb 6:6 KJV If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You said; "The Jews were all professed believers", which is not factual or even provable from scripture. Nowhere does the NT refer to believers as 'professed'.
No I don't believe all Jews believed in Yahweh. That was not only a religious belief system it was also a nation. The OT documents that was not the case, but the NT does not qualify believers as you would like it to. When in says 'believer', or Christian, or those of 'The Way', that IS what they are, believers. The NT did not have to equivocate like many try to do today to further their dogmatic POV.
Even Ananias and Sapphira were true believers when the Holy Spirit struck them down. Yes they lied to the Holy Spirit but they still believed.

Ok. Do you accept that there were Jews, and still are, that believe in Yahweh but are not true believers ie. saved ? Also do you accept there are currently people who profess to be Christian who are not saved ?

Oh I forgot about Ananias and Sapphira. Are you suggesting they're unsaved ?

It's not, because Paul was dealing with the OT Law when he said a Jew was only a Jew when he was circumcised inwardly, EVEN under that law. It had nothing to do with professing, it had to do with how God viewed this issue. The new covenant brought this into a new light and perspective. Even if Jews did both, they were still considered unbelievers if they did not take Jesus into their hearts as their savior. The same requirement of Rom 10:9-10 applied to them as well.

So do you get how there were Jews who believed in Yahweh but weren't saved ? I'm not sure how you think a pre Cross Jew was considered part of the saved /remnant at this stage can you explain ?

I'm quoting scripture, you are implying that I am inferring when I am not. Rom 10:9-11 makes it clear what must be done. If it is, then v13 is the result; “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Ok so it's your position that everyone who professes with their mouth is saved is that right ?

 

[Deborah13]

It wasn't simply that Jesus foreknew Judas would betray Him it's also that Judas showed through his actions that he wasn't a true follower. He stole when he was trusted with the bag etc. Jesus knew who Judas was at the time He selected him into the 12 for the very reason that he was a devil.

I accept the definition of traitor now but not in the sense that you suggest it means he was a believer. He simply betrayed someone he was supposed to support. If Judas was prophesied to do what he did how can we suggest it's only after the fact that he became an unbeliever. This seems very odd to me especially since he showed throughout the ministry he acted contrary to his position.



But you must endure to be saved which is the point of the admonition to not fall away. Matthew 20 1-16 is about those who come in late I'm not sure how it relates to falling away.

Believing for a while doesn't imply salvation I'm not sure why you think it does. If this is true you must accept that a person who falls away can't ever return is this your position ?

Heb 6:6 KJV If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



Ok. Do you accept that there were Jews, and still are, that believe in Yahweh but are not true believers ie. saved ? Also do you accept there are currently people who profess to be Christian who are not saved ?

Oh I forgot about Ananias and Sapphira. Are you suggesting they're unsaved ?



So do you get how there were Jews who believed in Yahweh but weren't saved ? I'm not sure how you think a pre Cross Jew was considered part of the saved /remnant at this stage can you explain ?



Ok so it's your position that everyone who professes with their mouth is saved is that right ?

I think God used Judas to fulfill scripture just like He did Pharaoh.
He was chosen because of who he was.

 

[JLB]

They (think) they were saved, that's the devil's scheme. It's impossible for a born again christian to abandon his faith completely, and that's what apostates do. If you're indwelled with the Holy Spirit, it will then never leave you.

Do you believe that angels, who are called sons of God, were somehow "never really" sons of God to begin with, because they were disobedient and cast down to hell.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

Who is Peter talking to in his letter?

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1



6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 6


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Do you believe that angels, who are called sons of God, were somehow "never really" sons of God to begin with, because they were disobedient and cast down to hell.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

Who is Peter talking to in his letter?

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1



6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 6


JLB

God judges angels differently, because angels cannot be (born again) like people can. It also says God will protect the godly and bring them out of temptation, born again christians are the godly by faith and grace alone. Their inheritance is righteousness. Three different beings are being spoken of here, (angels, the ungodly nonbelievers, and the righteous born again christians).

2 Peter 2:4-12 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,a putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

 

[DRS81]

I've watched him preach on TV and that's it. He's a fine preacher as is Chuck Swindoll, and John McArthur, but as they are all RT, nothing they have to say on that subject will sway me.
I'm far more interested in what you know and can support from scripture than what others can.

Hi Stan. I'm not really sure what your belief is in Heb 6:4-6. Are you using this scripture to prove born again christians can lose their salvation and go to hell.

This scripture is speaking of Jewish christians. There's a difference between a "religious christian" and..................a born again christian. In your opinion, what is the difference.

 

[Deborah13]

Stan1953

Hi Stan, please forgive me if you have stated what you believe previously about this question, I couldn't find a post where you did, I may have missed it.

Do you believe that a person can lose their justification in Christ (salvation), repent, and get it back again?

 

[JLB]

Cool, check out his book called Eternal Security by Dr Charles Stanley. It's very good, and will strengthen your walk and assurance in Christ.

God bless you brother, we all need to be strengthened and encouraged in our walk with the Lord.

There are many wonderful scriptures that teach us that God loves, and will never leave us nor forsake us.

Nothing will ever separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

No one will be able to snatch you away from God.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. John 10:28-29

There is also a balance to this truth, as we read the admonitions of the New Testament writers;

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

and again -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Keep in mind, Paul was writing to the Church in Galatia.

Please consider these things as you grow in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hi Stan. I'm not really sure what your belief is in Heb 6:4-6. Are you using this scripture to prove born again christians can lose their salvation and go to hell.

This scripture is speaking of Jewish christians. There's a difference between a "religious christian" and..................a born again christian. In your opinion, what is the difference.

Try to keep in mind that "Jewish" Christians were the only Christians for about 10 years from the Cross.

A born again Jewish Christian and a born again Gentile Christian, are considered children of God, regardless of their nationality.

Whether Paul was writing to the Hebrews or the Galatians, the message is still the same.

If you practice a lifestyle that is of the works of the flesh, you will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Could we discuss the phrase "inherit the kingdom of God", so that we don't misunderstand what Paul is teaching?


JLB

 

[JLB]

God will protect the godly and bring them out of temptation, born again Christians are the godly by faith and grace alone.

God will protect the godly...

Do you believe that all born again Christians are godly?

Christians are born again by faith through grace alone.

This does not automatically mean that every singly born again Christians live a godly life.

This is the very thing that the writers of the new testament are teaching to born again believers.

Be holy for the Lord is Holy!

Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14

No need to teach this to the world, for they are lost. We preach the gospel to the world.

We teach the Church to live godly in a wicked and godless world.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Try to keep in mind that "Jewish" Christians were the only Christians for about 10 years from the Cross.

A born again Jewish Christian and a born again Gentile Christian, are considered children of God, regardless of their nationality.

Whether Paul was writing to the Hebrews or the Galatians, the message is still the same.

If you practice a lifestyle that is of the works of the flesh, you will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Could we discuss the phrase "inherit the kingdom of God", so that we don't misunderstand what Paul is teaching?

JLB

Hi JLB, maybe you would be willing to answer this question, too?

Do you believe that a person can lose their justification in Christ (salvation), repent, and get it back again?

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Stan. I'm not really sure what your belief is in Heb 6:4-6. Are you using this scripture to prove born again christians can lose their salvation and go to hell.

This scripture is speaking of Jewish christians. There's a difference between a "religious christian" and..................a born again christian. In your opinion, what is the difference.

Charles Spurgeon, Calvinist, taught that the people in Hebrews 6:4-6 where not only born again but were mature Christians. 2 I agree.

 

[reba]

Sometimes common sense is so clear Deborah13

 

[DRS81]

Try to keep in mind that "Jewish" Christians were the only Christians for about 10 years from the Cross.

A born again Jewish Christian and a born again Gentile Christian, are considered children of God, regardless of their nationality.

Whether Paul was writing to the Hebrews or the Galatians, the message is still the same.

If you practice a lifestyle that is of the works of the flesh, you will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Could we discuss the phrase "inherit the kingdom of God", so that we don't misunderstand what Paul is teaching?

JLB

Hi JLB, good afternoon my friend. Sure, we can discuss. However, sin or no sin, a born again christian is going to inherit the kingdom. It's also (impossible) for a born again christian to keep practicing a sinful lifestyle. The Holy Spirit sooner or later is going to convict them and they will repent.

This does not automatically mean that every singly born again Christians live a godly life.

JLB I agree absolutely. We have a choice to pursue holiness and godliness.

Charles Spurgeon, Calvinist, taught that the people in Hebrews 6:4-6 where not only born again but were mature Christians. 2 I agree.

But it says it's impossible to renew them again to repentance. That's not biblical for a born again christian. The Holy Spirit will convict believers and bring them back to repentance. 2 Peter 2:9

 

[ezrider]

Do you believe that a person can lose their justification in Christ (salvation), repent, and get it back again?

As I said in an earlier post, our old man after the nature of our flesh is the being that was in need of salvation; But if we are a new man created in Christ, then what salvation does the new man require? When you ask if a person can lose their justification, repent and then get it back again, I would ask from what perspective do you seek your answer? Do you desire to know the position relative to the Lord or do you want to understand doctrines of men? I would tell you from my understanding, that the position of the Lord would be that he would not take back a gift that he has freely given. I am convinced in my own mind that if I were to fall into the deepest depths of hell that the Lord will never depart me. The question is not of the Lord's loyalty to his promise, but rather our loyalty to Faith that begs an answer. Through the new covenant, the Lord has brought us under his Grace, and he has promised us that our sins and iniquities he would remember no more. It is never the Lord that departs from man, but to the contrary, it has always been man that has departed from the Lord. It is the doctrines of men that would tell you to be in fear of losing your salvation, giving the enemy a foothold to cause you to doubt in your flesh, shifting your focus away from the spirit and back onto the flesh where his dominion is. Maybe the answer to your question can be found in the story of the Prodigal Son.