Some People Just Can’t “See†the Gospel

[Heidi]

So do you or do you not doubt your salvation, farley? Do you or do you not eblieve that Jesus saves you, not you, yourself? Do you or do you not believe that good works come from the Holy Spirit in you instead of your superior self? If so, then why would you worry that you will not do good works? Do you believe the devil is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o

I don't believe as you do, Heidi. I don't believe when we accept the Holy Spirit that we become robots unable to decide for ourselves from then on. You will probably say that I don't have the Holy Spirit within me for merely having made that statement. That's alright. I can live with that. We fight for our freedoms in our physical world. I believe that our spiritual world also allows such freedoms. The Holy Spirit does not make choices for us. We ourselves do that. And that's the way it was intended and should be. With the Holy Spirit as my mentor, I choose to do good works or I choose not to. But the choice is mine, not the Holy Spirit's.

So you beliegve that your good works come from yourself, not from God. is that correct? :o That's the sin of pride at its peak, my friend. Sorry, but being robots is complete surrender to God which you haven't done yet. You still resist him. ;-)

 

[JM]

"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"

 

[farley]

Heidi,

Here's a passage that seems to put obedience in the proper light...

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
(8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

Heidi,

Here's a passage that seems to put obedience in the proper light...

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
(8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

In Christ,

farley

2nd advent passage - has nothing to do with church-age saints today - doctrinally doesn't apply unless you are planning on being in the tribulation.

God bless

 

[farley]

Hi, AV,

Yes, I had a wonderful holiday, and hope that you did too! Also, I hope that your recent surgery went well!!!

I know, we've butted heads on this issue before. I know that it is futile to keep sniping away at you over OSAS issues. I've used much restraint over the last few months, and, by and large, have avoided entangling myself in many of the threads you have started and have contributed to on OSAS.

Every once in a while though, I think that adding a little context may help give a truer picture of the meaning of a passage, which could help someone else.

Maybe another reader will benefit from our skirmishing around on some of these points!

BTW...I thought believing in the Messiah, and following God's word, was all that is required of anyone, whichever dispensation they fall under!!!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Heidi]

Heidi,

Here's a passage that seems to put obedience in the proper light...

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
(8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

In Christ,

farley

Hello? :o What does this passage have to do with believers? :o

You still haven't answered my question. Do you believe your good works come from your superior intelligence and wisdom, or do you believe they come from God, as the bible says, which is why the bible calls good works "fruits of the Spirit"?

 

[AVBunyan]

Apology maybe?

Farley says Free nailed me to the wall and I owe Free an apology. I owe an apology because I disagreed with his interpretation – is this the reason? Free I do apologize for coming on a little strong by making versions an issue. But Free and I disagree on the passage and I owe an apology for that!?!? I’ve been here for 3 years and have yet to ask an apology from someone who disagreed with me!

Farley – you said to my face that I was lost – did I ask you for an apology? Get real here! Don’t take up Free’s offence if there is one here.

1. The point of my post was after a person is saved then his unbelief in any area does not effect his standing before God. I took the passage as a general belief in that even if the saint quite believing the gospel (if that could be done) then Christ cannot deny himself. If I read Free right he is saying it has nothing to do with salvation. I’m saying it could. No big deal. Free might be right.

2. I made an issue of versions for versions are an issue – “believe†and “faithless†are two different words. Not sure yet all of the difference but I will study out for my own interest. If God wanted faithless there He would have put it there. Actually whatever version Free used is not as corrupt as some – for in the NIV vs. 12 goes to Jesus “disowning†the saint!!!! So now Jesus can disown? There is a big difference between denying and disowning.

3. Free bolded vs. 12 so hence I commented on the denial referencing a reign – not salvation.

Again I apologize to Free for coming a bit hard on versions for that bothered me right after I posted it and should have reworded it. But, I don’t feel I should apologize for a disagreement over interpretations if that is the issue here? I don’t expect Free to apologize to me for disagreeing with me. I’m not afraid to apologize – have done so recently. But let it be a legitimate offence and I will.

Free – if I did you wrong then please let me know.

 

[thessalonian]

AV,

You indicated above that one could believe OSAS and then not believe it. I think I asked the question before and got no answer. Did I have to believe in OSAS to actually be saved for at least some time? If so what would that time be? An hour, an instant, a micro instant. To my knowledge I have never believed it. It would seem to be an unneccessary doctrine for salvation and therefore not a part of the Gospel as you have portrayed it.

 

[AVBunyan]

AV,

You indicated above that one could believe OSAS and then not believe it. I think I asked the question before and got no answer. Did I have to believe in OSAS to actually be saved for at least some time?

One more time - NO, the sinner does not have to believe in OSAS when he gets saved - how could he believe this? Paul says to believe the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-4. After he is saved he will most likely believe he is saved forever without the fear of "falling away" for only truly saved people can see and believe that Christ for all their sins.

One more time with feeling. If a person truly believes he can loose his salvation or fall away or whatever you call it then he most likely does not believe Christ died for all his sins only some of his sins. For unbelief is sin - sinning is sin - denying truths is sin, etc. - All the things you folks say people can do to lose their salvation is sin and you think those cause one to fall away so this means that Christ did not die for those sins. You have picked what sins you think Christ died for.

God bless

 

[thessalonian]

AV,

You indicated above that one could believe OSAS and then not believe it. I think I asked the question before and got no answer. Did I have to believe in OSAS to actually be saved for at least some time?

One more time - NO, the sinner does not have to believe in OSAS when he gets saved - how could he believe this? Paul says to believe the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-4. After he is saved he will most likely believe he is saved forever without the fear of "falling away" for only truly saved people can see and believe that Christ for all their sins.

One more time with feeling. If a person truly believes he can loose his salvation or fall away or whatever you call it then he most likely does not believe Christ died for all his sins only some of his sins. For unbelief is sin - sinning is sin - denying truths is sin, etc. - All the things you folks say people can do to lose their salvation is sin and you think those cause one to fall away so this means that Christ did not die for those sins. You have picked what sins you think Christ died for.

God bless

Your broadbrushing of me is duly noted. I have stated many times I do not believe one can "lose their salvation". God gives the grace of perseverence to those whom he will. They will be saved by his grace. I have also stated many times that Christ died for all of my sins. That there is forgiveness available for all of them and I need to trust in his mercy in that regard. Which I do. One can however fall from grace. This happens when as in galations where it says "you have fallen from grace" "you are SEVERED FROM CHRIST" when someone resists grace (grace is not irresistable) and decides to trust in themselves for their salvation and their works rather than Christ working in them. One cannot be SEVERED FROM CHRIST and still be saved. One cannot have "fallen from grace" unless one was in grace. One cannot be in a state "fallen from grace" and still be saved because grace is what saves. To be outside of grace means you are not saved. It's pretty simple. One cannot be said to have fallen from a tree if he is just standing under it (i.e. the hokey arguemnt that LD pointed out about never being saved in the first place). If he has a broken leg that conclusion can be drawn that one was in the tree and that is why the last condition is worst than the first of not being saved in the first place. If one has been in the tree and falls the fall is hard. If one is simply under the tree the pain is not so great.

Blessings

 

[AVBunyan]

One can however fall from grace. Blessings

If one falls from grace:

1. Is he still saved?
2. Is he still on his way to heaven?

In my book falling from grace is losingi it.

God bless

 

[D46]

John 10:27-30 - Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one" This is for the ones who continue to follow Christ. What does it mean to follow Christ? The word for follow also means to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him, to join one as a disciple, become or be a disciple. Christ said what happens when we follow Him earlier in John 8:12 - "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." The word for darkness also means the darkness due to want of light, metaph. used of ignorance of divine things and its associated wickedness and the resultant misery in hell. That means you do not practice sin (wickedness). Those who do are not following Christ. So this 10:28,29 is for those who follow Christ and are His disciples and do not practice sin.

"neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." The word snatch also means pluck, to seize, carry off by force. This is talking about anyone besides yourself. Think about it. When you lose something or give it away, it is not considered that you snatched or plucked yourself. It requires the action of someone else, besides yourself, to have something snatched out. But concerning our own actions, some have already turned aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15). Those people aren't following Christ anymore. They have condemnation because they have cast off their faith (1 Timothy 5:12).

Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." ~ Note: Part of the meaning of the word saved, from the Greek word sozo, is to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgement. The word that Jesus Christ spoke will judge in the last day (John 12:48). This being saved is clearly conditional. We must endure to the end. To endure means to remain, not to recede or flee, to preserve under misfortunes and trials, to hold fast to one's faith in Christ, to bear bravely and calmly ill treatments. It's the same word here: If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us - 2 Timothy 2:12. We must endure through whatever comes our way all the way until we die with Him in our lives, then we will live and reign with Him. If we wind up denying Him before the time of our death, you can't get around the word of God here, He will deny us.

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Brethren? sounds like he's talking to believers here

 

[farley]

Heidi,

Please answer my questions to you, in the blue, before demanding that I answer more of your questions.

While you are doing that, please consider another passage...

Revelation 20 KJV
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

...I'll be wanting to know why you place no value on works when I respond to your next post.

AV,

You have made a valid point regarding my sticking my nose into your and Free's conversation. I regret my comments, and ask both you and Free to forgive me.

In Christ,

farley

 

[SputnikBoy]

So do you or do you not doubt your salvation, farley? Do you or do you not eblieve that Jesus saves you, not you, yourself? Do you or do you not believe that good works come from the Holy Spirit in you instead of your superior self? If so, then why would you worry that you will not do good works? Do you believe the devil is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o

I don't believe as you do, Heidi. I don't believe when we accept the Holy Spirit that we become robots unable to decide for ourselves from then on. You will probably say that I don't have the Holy Spirit within me for merely having made that statement. That's alright. I can live with that. We fight for our freedoms in our physical world. I believe that our spiritual world also allows such freedoms. The Holy Spirit does not make choices for us. We ourselves do that. And that's the way it was intended and should be. With the Holy Spirit as my mentor, I choose to do good works or I choose not to. But the choice is mine, not the Holy Spirit's.

So you believe that your good works come from yourself, not from God. is that correct? :o That's the sin of pride at its peak, my friend. Sorry, but being robots is complete surrender to God which you haven't done yet. You still resist him. ;-)

Some of us - ALL of us? - have a DEBUG MODE problem occurring with the forum so I don't know if this response will get through until it either does or doesn't. :smt102

Anyway, rightly or wrongly I guess I do believe that our good works come from ourselves, Heidi. We can choose to do good works or choose not to do them. I would like to believe that my child wanted to do the right thing by me because he loved me. However, he may NOT always do the right thing by me as Christians might not always do the right thing by God. I don't believe that 'freedom of choice' has been taken out of our hands.

You, Heidi, are obviously perfect and ALWAYS do the right thing by God since you seem to be 'programmed' that way. And if you aren't perfect then that implies to me that you choose sometimes to be disbedient to God. Or is it Satan who is responsible when you disobey and not yourself?

I don't believe that anything has changed in regard to 'freedom to choose' since Adam. Surrendering to God will inspire in me to choose to do right. But I can choose to do wrong if I so desire. God will not prevent me from doing so. If that is somehow resisting God, well ...what can I say?

 

[cj]

Hmmm. I have to say your posts are truly dizzying cj. So what we believe has not effect on our salvation?

Our eternal salvation,... no.

It does though effect our growth in God, which means it effects the working out of our salvation in our soul.

Eternal salvation is not the same thing as growth in God. This is why Paul could tell believers that they, although saved, were like children needing to mature.

I'll say it again Thess, do not do what most in Christianity do and confuse eternal salvation with organic salavation, these are two different matters within the scope of our complete perfecting.

The Bible contains everything neccessary for our salvation but none of it is neccessary for our salvation?

Actually, we can know from the bible that many, many people were saved even though they had never come into contact with the bible.

This fact, one which you cannot deny, simply invalidates your above stance.

The truth is, it is the Spirit that contains everything necessary for our salvation, for even if you read the bible yet do so without the Spirit, the words will be like dead letters to you.

Silly questions? Truth is not what saves even though the scriptures say "YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE".

"FREE" is a subject thing.

Jesus also said that His burden is light. This tells us that though it might be light, there is still a burden. So where is the freedom?

Truth itself carries the weight of responsibility. Isaiah threw himself to the ground and cried out in shame when he came into God's presence, which is the same as coming into all truth. How free do you think Isaiah felt at that time?

Don't throw out verses to support points simply because they sound as if they do.

"You shall...... know the truth,..... and (then, when you know it) the truth shall set you free."

Do you know what this "truth" is Thess?

If you think it means doctrinal truth then you are in error, it doesn't.

The original word used here by John means far more than doctrinal truth, it means reality.

"You shal know reality and reality will set you free."

And to find out what this "reality" is we need to go to verse 36,...

"If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed."

The "reality" that sets us free is just the Son, who is reality.

John 14 : 6, "Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

(For further study on this word that so many believers don't understand, look at how John used it in his litte epistles.)


This is the truth,... it is Christ as our reality that sets us free.

2Thes.2
[10] and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
[13] But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

cj: What a saved believer concludes out of scripture does not matter when it comes to eternal salavation
Bible:saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and BELIEF in the truth.......

All believers will go through sanctification, I have never denied this.

At the time of the new eternity there will be no first-class and second-class believers, all will be equal, all will be one with God.


Now concerning the verses you give as reference.... you need to see the context of God's speaking in order to understand what He is saying and thus properly apply it,


2 Thess. 2:1-14,

"Now we ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you be not quickly shaken in mind nor alarmed, neither by a spirit nor by word nor by a letter as if by us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Let no one deceive you in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth, saying that he is God.

Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I said these things to you? And now you know that which restrains, so that he might be revealed in his own time. For it is the mystery of lawlessness that is now operating, but only until the one now restraining goes out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed (whom the Lord Jesus will slay by the breath of His mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of His coming),

The coming of whom is according to Satan's operation in all power and signs and wonders of a lie and in all deceit of unrighteousness among those who are perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved. And because of this God sends to them an operation of error that they might believe the lie,

So that all who have not believed the truth but have taken pleasure in unrighteousness might be judged.

But we ought to thank God always concerning you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, to which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."


When all the verses are taken together, as they should be, what we have is something far different from what you are suggesting.

First of all Paul is speaking about a particular time and event, the Lord's second coming.

Second,.... Paul says, "So that all who have.... not believed the truth...", Paul does not say "those who have believed but have fallen away in weakness..."

Furthermore, Paul goes on to say that God chose each believer.... unto salvation..... in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

Meaning this,.... God chose a person to be saved and then brough this person into the process by which God has declared this person will be saved.

The process is not the final word on salvation, God's choosing is the final word. The process is just His declared economy for the working out of what He has chosen to do.

If God is for us who or what can be against us?

If God chose us from the beginning then who or what can be against what He has chosen?

Nothing,... not even us.



Fact is, the very verse you introduced only serve to declare the truth that once a person has believed in and confessed Jesus this person is eternally saved. What now remains is the process through which this eternally saved one must go through in order that their salvation becomes outwardly mainfested.


In love,
cj

 

[Terral]

"Faith Plus Works, And Justification"???

Hi AV:

Thank you for starting this thread. Please allow me to give comment on your statements from the Opening Post.

AV >> This continuing discussion over OSAS, Faith plus Works, and Justification boils down to this. The reason for such confusion is that some people just can’t “see†the simple gospel which is declared in I Cor. 15:1-4. Allow me to demonstrate – here is the passage where the gospel is contained: (snip 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

You are inferring here that men are saved today by faith + works, when in truth we are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works. Ephesians 2:8-9. The members of the ‘body of Christ’ are indeed justified by faith apart from works also. Romans 4:4-6. Therefore, your “plus works†lingo above appears to be a note sang out of key. You quoted 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 to say:

AV >> Now read the above closely – you can read it but can you see it? Do you believe it?

Perhaps three references to “it†could be replaced with exactly what you are talking about regarding the four verses above. Yes, I believe Jesus Christ died for our sins and yes His God and Father raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9) on the third day. Your questions are rhetorical, as if somebody here is going to say “No.†Paul’s gospel is veiled to those who are perishing (2 Corinthians 4:3-4), but because of what they add to the gospel in way of works like you did at the top of this post. What exactly are those works of your “Faith plus Works, and Justification†thesis statement and hypothesis above?

AV >> If you believe you can lose your salvation then you do not believe the above passage. You may be able to read it, discuss it, and argue over it but you can’t see it.

We disagree. We are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works the moment we ‘hear’ (Romans 10:17) the gospel message as the ‘message of truth’ and ‘believe’ (Ephesians 1:13-14). The fact that this same believer develops the false notion that he can lose his salvation affects nothing about that moment of Salvation that the ‘power of God’ (Romans 1:16-17) finds his life hidden with Christ “IN†God. Colossians 3:3. That individual was ‘sealed in Him’ (Ephesians 1:13-14) for the ‘day of redemption’ (Ephesians 4:30), when God raised him up with Christ and seated him in the heavenly places “IN†Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6-7). You are making general statements here that do not cover or apply to everyone.

AV >> The only way you can believe the above passage is for you to be regenerated. Dead men cannot “see†nor believe the above for it is hid from then – II Cor. 4:3.

We disagree. The man hearing and believing the Gospel is regenerated through the ‘power of God’ transformation of the salvation process itself, which is the moment he receives the “Holy Spirit of promise†(Ephesians 1:14). The ‘faith’ we receive by ‘hearing’ (Romans 10:17) is the ‘faith of Jesus’ (Romans 3:26) that God milled out for us by sending His Son to Calvary. We are justified by that same ‘faith’ (Galatians 3:24), as we also receive the Spirit of God by ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2). Therefore, the faith of Jesus ‘in’ us becomes the horse pulling the cart of God’s ‘grace’ (Romans 5:1-2 = ‘introduction by faith into this grace’) leading to the “washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit†(Titus 3:5) NOW in our mortal bodies (1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19). Again, Paul’s gospel for today is veiled to those mixing their own works into a ‘message of truth’ that MUST be accepted as the ‘gift of God’ apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). For example: The “Sinner’s Prayer†is just one ‘false gospel’ heralded by men today. Just as soon as you say, “Do this . . . . for salvation,†then you are asking the ‘hearer’ to do A WORK. They say, “Just pray this prayer with me and say, 'Lord Jesus come into my heart and be the Lord of my life' . . .â€Â. Then they say, “If you prayed that simple prayer . . .â€Â. No sir. The preacher (Romans 10:14) presents the ‘word concerning Christ’ (Romans 10:17) and the believers are those who placed themselves into the position of ‘obedience,’ apart from adding any works at all. Adding just one work makes “void†(1 Corinthians 1:17) the power of the cross to save.

AV >> So, when many of you still believe you can fall away or sin it away or just plain lose it then it is because you do not believe Christ died for your sins. When Christ died for your sins 2000 years ago he also died for your “falling away†at times, your “sinning it away†and all other future sins. The crux of the matter is this, do you believe Christ died for your sins and what he did at Calvary was sufficient? Either you believe or you don’t.

There is some truth to your statements here, but your one doctrinal assertion does not cover everyone with the same net. We agree that the majority of those believing they can lose their salvation have worked for that from the very beginning and their believing “what is false†(2 Thessalonians 2:11) pattern of doctrinal behavior is governed by the ‘deluding influence’ of the same verse. However, the eternal security of the true believer in our gospel to be found “IN†Christ Jesus with his life “hidden with Christ in God†is not affected by false notions developed over time after the fact. That concept teaches against the "Once Saved Always Saved" (OSAS) premise of your thesis statement of the OP.

AV >> I mantain that many here do not believe the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-4 – it is obvious from your own postings. (snip)

Obvious? What is the difference between the carnal Christian out of fellowship with God and His Word AND the unsaved acting out in similar fashion? While we can gather clues to the status of one’s salvation, in the end we are unwise to point judgmental fingers in the direction of anyone. That leaves three witnesses aimed directly back at you in the event your pointer is upon one for whom Christ died. That “Faith plus Works, and Justification†statement above is the one bothering me the most and hopefully you can explain exactly what that means using Scripture.

Thank you again for starting this thread,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Heidi]

So do you or do you not doubt your salvation, farley? Do you or do you not eblieve that Jesus saves you, not you, yourself? Do you or do you not believe that good works come from the Holy Spirit in you instead of your superior self? If so, then why would you worry that you will not do good works? Do you believe the devil is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o

I don't believe as you do, Heidi. I don't believe when we accept the Holy Spirit that we become robots unable to decide for ourselves from then on. You will probably say that I don't have the Holy Spirit within me for merely having made that statement. That's alright. I can live with that. We fight for our freedoms in our physical world. I believe that our spiritual world also allows such freedoms. The Holy Spirit does not make choices for us. We ourselves do that. And that's the way it was intended and should be. With the Holy Spirit as my mentor, I choose to do good works or I choose not to. But the choice is mine, not the Holy Spirit's.

So you believe that your good works come from yourself, not from God. is that correct? :o That's the sin of pride at its peak, my friend. Sorry, but being robots is complete surrender to God which you haven't done yet. You still resist him. ;-)

Some of us - ALL of us? - have a DEBUG MODE problem occurring with the forum so I don't know if this response will get through until it either does or doesn't. :smt102

Anyway, rightly or wrongly I guess I do believe that our good works come from ourselves, Heidi. We can choose to do good works or choose not to do them. I would like to believe that my child wanted to do the right thing by me because he loved me. However, he may NOT always do the right thing by me as Christians might not always do the right thing by God. I don't believe that 'freedom of choice' has been taken out of our hands.

You, Heidi, are obviously perfect and ALWAYS do the right thing by God since you seem to be 'programmed' that way. And if you aren't perfect then that implies to me that you choose sometimes to be disbedient to God. Or is it Satan who is responsible when you disobey and not yourself?

I don't believe that anything has changed in regard to 'freedom to choose' since Adam. Surrendering to God will inspire in me to choose to do right. But I can choose to do wrong if I so desire. God will not prevent me from doing so. If that is somehow resisting God, well ...what can I say?

Do you not understand Ephesians 2:8-9, that faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves so that no one can boast? If good wroks come from ourselves, then why do we need Jesus Christ? :o Sorry, but Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." That means none of us has the power to be good without the Holy Spirit.

If someone heals you of blindness, to whom do you give the credit for your ability to see? :o Therefore, who do you think gets the credit for transforming our hearts into a new creation?

I don't give credit to myself for anything good in me, I give all of it to God because without the Holy Spirit, I am not capable of being good. Not only do I believe this because Jesus says it, but I know this to be a fact inside myself. Boasting comes from the sin of pride which is from the devil so I know that the notion that good works comes from ourselves is not a teaching from God.

 

[thessalonian]

So do you or do you not doubt your salvation, farley? Do you or do you not eblieve that Jesus saves you, not you, yourself? Do you or do you not believe that good works come from the Holy Spirit in you instead of your superior self? If so, then why would you worry that you will not do good works? Do you believe the devil is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o

I don't believe as you do, Heidi. I don't believe when we accept the Holy Spirit that we become robots unable to decide for ourselves from then on. You will probably say that I don't have the Holy Spirit within me for merely having made that statement. That's alright. I can live with that. We fight for our freedoms in our physical world. I believe that our spiritual world also allows such freedoms. The Holy Spirit does not make choices for us. We ourselves do that. And that's the way it was intended and should be. With the Holy Spirit as my mentor, I choose to do good works or I choose not to. But the choice is mine, not the Holy Spirit's.

So you believe that your good works come from yourself, not from God. is that correct? :o That's the sin of pride at its peak, my friend. Sorry, but being robots is complete surrender to God which you haven't done yet. You still resist him. ;-)

Some of us - ALL of us? - have a DEBUG MODE problem occurring with the forum so I don't know if this response will get through until it either does or doesn't. :smt102

Anyway, rightly or wrongly I guess I do believe that our good works come from ourselves, Heidi. We can choose to do good works or choose not to do them. I would like to believe that my child wanted to do the right thing by me because he loved me. However, he may NOT always do the right thing by me as Christians might not always do the right thing by God. I don't believe that 'freedom of choice' has been taken out of our hands.

You, Heidi, are obviously perfect and ALWAYS do the right thing by God since you seem to be 'programmed' that way. And if you aren't perfect then that implies to me that you choose sometimes to be disbedient to God. Or is it Satan who is responsible when you disobey and not yourself?

I don't believe that anything has changed in regard to 'freedom to choose' since Adam. Surrendering to God will inspire in me to choose to do right. But I can choose to do wrong if I so desire. God will not prevent me from doing so. If that is somehow resisting God, well ...what can I say?

Do you not understand Ephesians 2:8-9, that faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves so that no one can boast? If good wroks come from ourselves, then why do we need Jesus Christ? :o Sorry, but Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." That means none of us has the power to be good without the Holy Spirit.

If someone heals you of blindness, to whom do you give the credit for your ability to see? :o Therefore, who do you think gets the credit for transforming our hearts into a new creation?

I don't give credit to myself for anything good in me, I give all of it to God because without the Holy Spirit, I am not capable of being good. Not only do I believe this because Jesus says it, but I know this to be a fact inside myself. Boasting comes from the sin of pride which is from the devil so I know that the notion that good works comes from ourselves is not a teaching from God.

The usual false dichotomy putdown of other Christians, implying that sputnik thinks the Holy Spirit is a passive, non-player. I highly doudt sputnik thinks he does the good on his own. I am sure he is aware of Eph 3:20, the power of God working in and through him to bring about his salvation. But the good must be done or romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25, the sheep and the goats is a meaningless lie.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: "Faith Plus Works, And Justification"???

Hi AV:
You are inferring here that men are saved today by faith + works, when in truth we are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works.

Hi Terral - I was not trying to say that we are saved by faith plus works here. I believe a man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ plus nothing. If I was confusing here then I apologize,

I think folks here know I stand by the doctrine of faith alone with no works at all.

Sorry for the confusion I may have created.

God bless 8-)

 

[Vic C.]

Re: "Faith Plus Works, And Justification"???

Hi AV:
You are inferring here that men are saved today by faith + works, when in truth we are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works.

Hi Terral - I was not trying to say that we are saved by faith plus works here. I believe a man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ plus nothing. If I was confusing here then I apologize,

I think folks here know I stand by the doctrine of faith alone with no works at all.

Sorry for the confusion I may have created.

God bless 8-)

I have been reading AV's posts for a couple of years now and I can attest to the fact that he never taught anything else but what he stated above.