Some People Just Can’t “See†the Gospel

[Terral]

Thank You and Thank You : 0 )

Hi AV and Vic:

Thank you both very much for writing.

AV >> I was not trying to say that we are saved by faith plus works here. I believe a man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ plus nothing. If I was confusing here then I apologize, I think folks here know I stand by the doctrine of faith alone with no works at all. Sorry for the confusion I may have created.

No need to apologize. The “works†part up there was just a little confusing; along with the ‘regenerated to believe’ part. If the unsaved must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit in order to believe the Gospel and receive the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14), then we are all in a bunch of trouble. My post to you was in defense of the readers that might be looking for God through His Word, but might be discouraged by these kinds of statements knowing full well that he is not yet regenerated. Let’s agree that the natural man is unregenerated and that after hearing (Romans 10:17) and believing the Gospel he also drinks of “the One Spirit†(1 Corinthians 12:13) like every other Christian for the past 2000 Years. We preach the gospel to the unsaved and some place themselves into the position of obedience (hearing = Romans 10:17) and some simply do not (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). Let’s not burden the unsaved with more than he can possibly bear by saying he must be regenerated first.

Vic >> I have been reading AV's posts for a couple of years now and I can attest to the fact that he never taught anything else but what he stated above.

Thank you for supporting AV and his work on this fine Board. Also, please forgive if my intentions were misunderstood in my post above. This appears a very nice place to share our views of God’s Living Word. Thank you again for writing,

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Thank You and Thank You : 0 )

If the unsaved must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit in order to believe the Gospel and receive the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14), then we are all in a bunch of trouble. Your brother in Christ Jesus,Terral

Hi Terral - in light of how I think I read you here how do you reconcile your above statement with the following verses?

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

According to the above verses I cannot see where a dead man can do anything or receive any spiritual truths in his dead and darkened state. If God doesn't step in and do the work we stay in a mess.

Just some food for thougth here. 8-)

May God richly bless

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Perhaps he doesn't regenerate them yet but rather enables them to see the gospel and to believe THEN he regenerates them.

 

[AVBunyan]

Perhaps he doesn't regenerate them yet but rather enables them to see the gospel and to believe THEN he regenerates them.

I see what you are trying to say but......Come - let us reason together - if the above were the case then salvation would be dependent upon the sinner making a choice, right?

In light of the above verses I presented can dead men chose God?

God bless 8-)

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Perhaps he doesn't regenerate them yet but rather enables them to see the gospel and to believe THEN he regenerates them.

I see what you are trying to say but......Come - let us reason together - if the above were the case then salvation would be dependent upon the sinner making a choice, right?

In light of the above verses I presented can dead men chose God?

God bless 8-)

If he enables them to believe and they believe then where's the choice?

 

[AVBunyan]

Perhaps he doesn't regenerate them yet but rather enables them to see the gospel and to believe THEN he regenerates them.

If he enables them to believe and they believe then where's the choice?

I believe you have the "cart before the horse".

God bless

 

[Merry Menagerie]

no no - what I'm trying to establish here is that one cannot be made a new creation (ie being filled with the Holy spirit) unless one repents and believes first. Saying that one is regenerated BEFORE belief, is, in my opinion putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Please show me where regeneration comes before belief in scripture.

 

[AVBunyan]

Please show me where regeneration comes before belief in scripture.

Please review the verses above again - they show the natural man has no power or life to believe. Plus look again at the following:

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Please read prayerfully verse 6 -
Paul uses creation as a picture of the dead sinner made alive - the world was dead and in darkness until God first did the work to bring light and then life.

God bless

 

[Heidi]

no no - what I'm trying to establish here is that one cannot be made a new creation (ie being filled with the Holy spirit) unless one repents and believes first. Saying that one is regenerated BEFORE belief, is, in my opinion putting the cart before the horse.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one, Merry. I wanted to believe with all my heart but couldn't until I received the Holy Spirit. Then I knew Christ was alive and well. But I had to first admit the truth about my wrongdoings, then ask God, (whom I didn't know but wanted to) for forgiveness.

And that is what all the repentant sinners did with John the Baptist. They showed a sincere desire to repent and were thus baptized with water to show their sincerity, but their faith only came after receiving the Holy Spirit after Christ's resurrection. "Faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves so that no one can boast."

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I understand that faith is a gift from God but what I'm trying to establish here is the order in which everything happens. So far no clear scripture has been given on what God says about regeneration before belief. There are a lot of assumptions "Man was like this so God would HAVE to regenerate them first befor they can believe" but there's no clear scripture on it.

 

[Terral]

The Gospel Is The "Power Of God" For Salvation

Hi AV:

Thank you for writing.

Terral Original >> If the unsaved must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit in order to believe the Gospel and receive the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14), then we are all in a bunch of trouble. Your brother in Christ Jesus,Terral

AV >> Hi Terral - in light of how I think I read you here how do you reconcile your above statement with the following verses? Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

I would love to quote from your commentary on these verses, but you did not offer any. Why do you have Matthew 8 connected to Romans 3 and Ephesians 2? Christ is preaching the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 9:35) in the Four Gospels to Israel Only (Matthew 15:24) and preaching repentance and water baptism for the ‘forgiveness of sins’ (Mark 1:4-5). Christ has died and been raised from the dead for Paul to preach and teach on his “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message to the Romans and Ephesians. The difference between the saved and unsaved today is that we have been regenerated by receiving the Holy Spirit by ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2). That saving ‘faith’ is the ‘faith of Jesus’ (Romans 3:26) received by hearing (Romans 10:17) the gospel itself. You wrote in the Opening Post, saying,

AV From OP >> The only way you can believe the above passage (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is for you to be regenerated. Dead men cannot “see†nor believe the above for it is hid from then – II Cor. 4:3.

That is simply not true. Everyone is an unbeliever AND unregenerated just prior to hearing and believing the Gospel. Placing yourself into the position of obedience is ‘hearing’ (Romans 10:17), so that you can ‘believe’ (Ephesians 1:13-14) the ‘message of truth’ AND THEN receive the “Holy Spirit of Promise†who seals you for the ‘day of redemption’ (Ephesians 4:30). To infer that some are regenerated BEFORE hearing and believing the gospel removes the ‘power of God’ (Romans 1:16) from the Gospel message itself. The gospel was made for the unsaved to whom we carry and preach the ‘word of the cross’ (Colossians 1:18). You are pretending that some men are regenerated to hear it and some are left unregenerated to reject it, but that is not how the salvation process works at all. Men who are obedient to the gospel become regenerated and those who reject it inherit the ‘deluding influence’ of 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

AV (snip 2 Corinthians 4:3-6, 1 Corinthians 2:14) >> According to the above verses I cannot see where a dead man can do anything or receive any spiritual truths in his dead and darkened state. If God doesn't step in and do the work we stay in a mess.

There is a VAST difference between ‘preaching’ the Gospel and ‘teaching’ doctrine to the members of the Body of Christ (Ephesians 4:12) already sealed in Christ for the day of redemption. Paul is saying that the gospel is veiled to those who have already rejected it and received the ‘deluding influence’ and that they will continue to believe “what is false.†2 Thessalonians 2:11. We cannot ‘teach’ any kind of doctrine to the unsaved, because they are yet to be REGENERATED and do NOT have the Holy Spirit in their mortal bodies (1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19). Those things have NOTHING to do with the ‘preacher’ carrying the gospel to the unsaved in order for them to place themselves into the position of obedience. If your presumption were truth, then nobody could ever believe the Gospel at all, because every Christian here was unregenerated until the moment he placed himself into the position of obedience (hearing = Romans 10:17) to the gospel TO THEN drink of the ‘one Spirit’ (1 Corinthians 12:13). Your doctrine has the cart in front of the horse . . .

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Menagerie and I Agree: You Have the Cart Before The Horse

Hi Menagerie and Heidi:

Since I just used the same “cart before the horse†adage like Menagerie, please allow me to offer comment.

Menagerie >> no no - what I'm trying to establish here is that one cannot be made a new creation (ie being filled with the Holy spirit) unless one repents and believes first. Saying that one is regenerated BEFORE belief, is, in my opinion putting the cart before the horse.

Heidi >> I'll have to disagree with you on this one, Merry. I wanted to believe with all my heart but couldn't until I received the Holy Spirit. Then I knew Christ was alive and well. But I had to first admit the truth about my wrongdoings, then ask God, (whom I didn't know but wanted to) for forgiveness.

Our personal feeling about our own salvation carries no weight at all. Our interpretations are either based upon Scripture or they are based upon Myth and fantasy. Your presumption is that you somehow received the Holy Spirit prior to ever hearing the gospel itself, which is most certainly an IMPOSSIBILITY. Where did the faith come from to believe the gospel in the first place? Paul says this ‘faith of Jesus’ (Romans 3:26) comes from ‘hearing’ the gospel itself (Romans 10:17). Paul teaches that we receive the Spirit by “hearing with faith†(Galatians 3:2) through the hearing and believing process. Scripture says,

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.†Ephesians 1:13-14.

If your assumption that the Spirit preceded obedience to the gospel where truth, then we should see the Holy Spirit given prior to believing and we most certainly DO NOT. The horse in the scenario is the ‘faith’ that we receive by ‘hearing the word concerning Christ’ (Romans 10:17). Only then are we introduced to God’s Grace (Romans 5:1-2), as the faith horse is pulling the grace cart in the process. The Holy Spirit of Promise is also given by the same ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2) process described here:

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hanges on a tree"-- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.†Galatians 3:13-14.

Again, how did you receive the Holy Spirit PRIOR to ‘hearing with faith’ and ‘hearing the word concerning Christ’ (Romans 10:17), when there is no other way to receive the Holy Spirit except by your own obedience? The preacher presented the gospel to you and Heidi placed herself into the position of obedience (hearing = Romans 10:17) to receive the Holy Spirit in her mortal body (1 Corinthians 3:16) by ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2). If you really believe you received the Holy Spirit to become regenerated BEFORE obedience to our gospel, then please explain how that works using Scripture.

Heidi >> And that is what all the repentant sinners did with John the Baptist.

No. Where did you get that idea that John the Baptist has anything to do with receiving the Holy Spirit by ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2)?? John the Baptist preached repentance, confession and water baptism for the ‘forgiveness of sins’ (Mark 1:4-5) through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, etc.). That is the first gospel message and the only gospel message preached in the Four Gospels that Israel REJECTED by their ‘transgression’ (Romans 11:11). There is ONLY ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) for Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message that MUST be accepted by faith APART from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). You are mixing these two gospel messages together, which adds the works of the first to the second.

--------------------------
This is NOT our gospel for today. Nobody has been saved by this Gospel message for almost 2000 years.
------------------

I. Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:23 , Matthew 9:35, Matthew 24:14, Acts 8:12). Gospel to the Circumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The good news that the ‘kingdom of heaven’ is ‘at hand’ (Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Matthew 10:7). i.e., ‘preaching the kingdom.’ Acts 20:25.
2. According to Prophecy; seen by the OT Prophets. Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1.
3. Obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments. Matthew 19:16-17.
4. Water baptism (during confession) for the ‘forgiveness of sins.’ Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38. (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3; name of the Father; John 1:6, 33, Matthew 28:19.)
5. Baptism in the ‘name of the Lord Jesus’ (Acts 8:16, Acts 19:5), ‘name of the Son’ (Matthew 28:19)
6. Receive the Spirit through the baptism in the ‘name of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19) through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6).
7. Justified by ‘works and not by faith alone.’ James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom disciples are under Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:18, James 2:10).

---------------------
This is our gospel for today that many believe is the ‘only’ gospel of the New Testament, but which actually was revealed to Paul after his conversion in Acts 9. Note that Christ preached the ‘gospel of God’ in Mark 1:14-15, which is gospel #1 above.
--------------------

II. Paul’s “my gospel†(Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, etc.). Gospel to the Uncircumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24.
2. According to the revelation of the Mystery; NOT seen by the OT prophets. Romans 16:25.
3. Saved by God’s grace through faith APART from works. Ephesians 2:8-9.
4. Sins forgiven through the redemption IN Christ (Romans 3:24) and His shed blood (Ephesians 1:7).
5. Our ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) is done by the ‘one Spirit’ (Ephesians 4:4) into the ‘one body’ (1 Corinthians 12:13), which is into “Christ’s body.†1 Corinthians 12:27.
6. We receive the Spirit when hearing (Rom. 10:17*) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) Paul’s Gospel by ‘hearing with faith*.’ Galatians 3:2.
7. We are justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.
-----------------------

You are borrowing doctrinal components of Gospel #1 and line #4 to add that to Paul’s Gospel #2 that MUST be accepted by faith APART from works.

Heidi >> They showed a sincere desire to repent and were thus baptized with water to show their sincerity, but their faith only came after receiving the Holy Spirit after Christ's resurrection.

Repentance ‘can’ lead one (2 Corinthians 7:10) to the cross and salvation, but that in no way makes Repentance a part of the actually hearing (Romans 10:17) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) process. Again we ‘receive’ the Holy Spirit by ‘hearing’ and ‘believing’ the gospel itself. The kingdom disciples obedient to the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ had to repent AND confess AND be baptized in water by a human being (Mark 1:4-5) to then qualify for the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6); which is another work by a human being. All of that is part of Gospel #1 above, but we obey Paul’s Gospel #2 that has NOTHING to do with water baptism or laying of hands or ANY of those works.

Heidi >> "Faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves so that no one can boast."

Since ‘faith’ comes by ‘hearing the word concerning Christ’ (Romans 10:17) AND the Spirit is received by ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2) then you were obedient to the gospel BEFORE you ever received the ‘one Spirit’ (1 Corinthians 12:13) by FAITH (Galatians 3:13-14) in the first place. This last statement in your post has the faith horse pulling the grace (Romans 5:1-2) cart carrying the “Holy Spirit†received by ‘hearing with faith.’ However, this portion of your testimony contradicts what you said above, where Menagerie and I agree that you have the cart before the horse.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[AVBunyan]

I understand that faith is a gift from God but what I'm trying to establish here is the order in which everything happens.

Hey folks - let's make something clear up front - I'm enjoying our chat for it involves you folks here (Merry and Terral) who appear to believe:
1. That Christ did it all
2. We are searching for truth - which is rare on forums these days.

That being said - what we are doing here is seeking to fine-tune doctrine because it is a great doctrine (justification) coming from a great and mighty God. What I'm saying here I would never bring up to the lost man on the street or to the average saint today - this discussing is amongst the "family" here – no need to create confusion – there is already enough of that!!!

Now -the order? I personally believe that God draws men in time for he has chosen them from before the foundation of the world. Since dead men cannot believe spiritual truths I believe they have to be regenerated before they can believe any spiritual truths. Won’t go to war over it but it is what I believe. If not then the choice is left up to man thus making man controlling his destiny thus being able to be the author of his destiny.

Yes, faith is a gift but whose faith is it? Look closely at Gal. 2:16 and you will see it is the faith of Jesus Christ – not ours unless, you read the modern versions which change the “of†to “in†thus making man’s faith the one that does the justifying.

Again folks tough doctrine – the greatest writers, evangelists, preachers and missionaries of yesterday (who did far more for God than we ever will) took the stand that dead men can’t believe and all the work was done by God thus God getting all the glory.

Summary – the sinner is dead and blinded and not seeking God, the Spirit draws him in time, the Spirit quickens the sinner, his “eyes†are opened; now he can believe – I don’t see how it can be any other way. This view also takes away all this nonsense about the saint being able to lose it. You put man’s choosing into the picture and then it leaves room for folks to say they can “unchoose†it later. If you don’t see it then that’s fine – I didn’t for many years either. At any rate I won’t throw rocks – I’m a student (and a poor one at that) not an expert – still wrestling and learning.

Merry, you and Terral seem to believe that Christ did it all and there is nothing we can add – that it is Christ’s work at Calvary that gets us home then praise the Lord – you are part of the few – praise the Lord!

Again – we are fine-tuning here – searching for truth – keeping it within the family. Many on this forum can’t even get justification right so they certainly are not ready to “search out the orderâ€Â. Now - how important is the order in the scheme of things? Not sure - the sinner doesn't need to know this to be saved but we, as saints, can search it out.

What this doctrine does to me is to take away any tiny part (us believing) we may have - Is it because the flesh wants to glory in something? I mean - we have to do something, don't we? :-? :

God bless 8-)

 

[Heidi]

I understand that faith is a gift from God but what I'm trying to establish here is the order in which everything happens. So far no clear scripture has been given on what God says about regeneration before belief. There are a lot of assumptions "Man was like this so God would HAVE to regenerate them first befor they can believe" but there's no clear scripture on it.

Regeneration comes from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what transforms our hearts. We cannot do it by our own power. All we have to do is admit our sins, and ask for the Holy Spirit, and once we receive hi, he will regenerate us into a new creation.

 

[cj]

How do we come to believe? The million-dollar question.

Heidi,.... you're way off, as usual. I truly believe you love the Lord, but you are very poor on the truth contained in the scriptures.

The most simple rebuff to Heidi's error is found in Abraham, the father of faith, for Abraham had faith but he did not have the promise, which is Christ as the Spirit in us.

Boom,... there goes the false thought that faith comes with the receiving of the Holy Spirit, at least in the sense that Heidi presents it.



Now lets go onto understanding this matter,

In the beginning God gave man a spirit; God "breathed" into man,... and man became a living soul.

Notice that where the matter of "living" and man is concerned, the connecting point is the relationship between the breath of God (which formed man's spirit) and the soul.

Nothing has changed.


Ask yourself this question, "Why did God give man a spirit, and why was this spirit formed out of God's breath"?

Also, "How does gaining a spirit cause a man to become a living soul"?

(And allow me to say something here in the hope that no one will become offended. This matter is at the very beginning of God's written speaking to us, yet how little we know or even consider it. And if we are not clear about this very basic and foremost of matters, how foolish are we to think that we know the truth concerning other matters. And hear me, I'm speaking from my own experience.)

But lets move on,...

First, be clear that man is a tripartite being, meaning man is made up of three parts, body, soul, and spirit.

Second, be clear concerning God desire/reason for creating man, He created mankind to be a vessel that would contain Him (e.g. Jesus, a man containing God)

Concerning a man's spirit, Zech. 12:1 tells us that ".... Thus declares Jehovah, who.... stretches forth the heavens.... and lays the foundations of the earth.... and forms the spirit of man within him..."

This tells us that a man's spirit ranks in importance with the heavens and the earth.

Notice that God did not indicate anything concerning a man's physical body nor his soul in His declaration. From this we can understand that of the tripartite aspects of man God recognizes man's spirit first.

Be very clear about this truth, God recognizes a man's spirit first in His relationship with man.

Or in other words, it is the first place that God considers when He considers a man.

Consider this, "What is the closest point of a man to God"?

Is it man's body that was formed from the earth?

Is it man's soul that required something from God to become living?

Or could it be man's spirit that was formed out of God's very breath?

The answer is clear, the closest point to God of tripartite man's being is man's spirit.

The fact is, scripture clearly tells us that the spirit of a man is the inward contact point between a man and God....

Romans 8:16, The Spirit Himself.... witnesses with our spirit.... that we are children of God."

And that the spirit of a man is the place where man can be one with God....

1 Corinthians 6:17, "But he who is joined to the Lord... is one spirit."


So, if we understand that man's spirit is like a connecting point between man and God, a point of contact, we can come to see a deep truth found within the following scripture verse....

Proverbs  20 : 27, "The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being."

"The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah,..."

Notice it does not say "The spirit of a saved man", just "The spirit of man..."

And what is this spirit?

It is the lamp of Jehovah,........ within his created vessel.

Or in other words, it is where He can shine His light within a man,... if He so, as scripture says, chooses to.


Hmmmmmm, you say. Just like I said when I first had this explained to me.

Honestly, when I first heard this (and even now when I explain it) I just had to smile to myself at God wisdom and greatness. He who leaves nothing without His purpose.


So now we know that God shines forth in and through a man's spirit, even an unregenerated man's spirit. Just as He did for thousands of years, prior to the time of the manifestation of the promise.

And this is how men then, and men today, were empowered to believe. Through God's shining in and through our spirit.

John  8 : 32, "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."

The word "truth" that John uses in the above verse is a very unique word, inthat it does not mean truth found in doctrine or such (e.g. water is wet). The word that John uses means "reality" and can be found in John 1: 14...

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace... and reality.

Fact is, John was speaking of Christ Jesus as the reality of all things, and therefore the verse can read....

""And you shall know the Christ Jesus, and the Christ Jesus shall set you free."

Which brings us to this verses....

John 1:4, "In Him was life, and the life was... the light of men."

John 1:9, "This was... the true light which, coming into the world,... enlightens every man."


1 John  2 : 8, "Yet again a new commandment I am writing to you, which is true in Him and in you because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining."

John 8:12, "Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall by no means walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

John 12:46, "I have come as a light.... into the world, that every one who believes into Me would not remain in darkness."


Christ Jesus is the light of God, and the light of God is life.

And be clear, the Son was with the Father from eternity past, for He is just God.


I hope you are beginning to see that the light that shines within the spirit of a man is just Christ Jesus.

Job said in chapter 42 verse 5, "I had heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye has seen You."

What Job "saw" with his "eye" was God as light, for in the very next verse Job declares, "Therefore I abhor myself, and I repent..."

It is God as light that reveals our true condition and cause us to repent.

Job was saved at that very moment, because He saw God and then saw his own falleness, hated it (rejected it), and then repented (cried out to God concerning it).

The only thing that is different today is that we live in the age/dispensation of the promise, which is the Spirit that comes to dwell in us upon our believing. Neither Job nor Abraham, nor even John the Baptist, were able to receive this promise (of being able to live out our life on earth while having God as the Spirit living in us).


A man comes to salvation because outwardly God causes things to happen that makes a man desperate, and inwardly, at the perfect time, God shines forth His light (Christ) so brilliantly that the man see this light and sees himself in this light and is ashamed of his condition and repenting, cries out to God.

This is the most wonderful thing.


Unfortunately this post has become long and so I won't go into the second thing I mentioned at the beginning, the matter of our being a vessel to contain God. But just know, this is what Paul's entire ministry was focused on, and is the purpose of the Son coming to us, suffering death, being resurrected, ascending, and coming back to us as the Spirit of life.

Its all about making us vessels to contain God.


Let me end with the following verses that you can consider regarding Christ Jesus as the light of God...

Ephesians  1 : 18, "The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,"


Ephesians  3 : 9, "And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been chidden in God, who created all things,"


Hebrews  6 : 4, "For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit"


Hebrews  10 : 32, "But call to mind the former days, in which, having been enlightened, you endured a great bconflict of sufferings;"


And, consider Paul's salvation exprience...

Acts 22:6-10,

"And as I journeyed and drew near to Damascus about midday,... suddenly a great light flashed out of heaven around me (outward circumstances to make Paul desperate);

And I fell to the ground... and heard a voice saying to me (inward light to cause Paul to see his true condition),.... Saul, Saul (confirming that Saul is yet to be saved), why are you persecuting Me?

And I answered,... Who are You, Lord? (again confirming he is yet to be saved, while at the same time needing to know Christ, because knowing Christ is what sets us free).... And He said to me, I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you persecute.

And those who were with me beheld the light,...but did not hear the voice of the One who was speaking to me (because the Lord was shining/speaking in Paul's spirit).

And I said, What shall I do, Lord? (and by these words we can know that Paul received the Lord and was saved)"


Although not every believer has this sort of salvation experience, the principle and way are the same for all.


Hope this helps.

In love,
cj

 

[AVBunyan]

Regeneration comes from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what transforms our hearts. We cannot do it by our own power. All we have to do is admit our sins, and ask for the Holy Spirit, and once we receive hi, he will regenerate us into a new creation.

So let's fine-tune here - Are you saying that because of your admittance and your asking that God does the work? That is some kind of power here :o You mean if God draws the sinner then they can resist God and say no to God's eternal calling (Eph. 1)? We just have to have some part in all this don't we?:-?

God bless 8-)

 

[Terral]

The Gospel Is The "Power Of God" For Salvation

Hi AV:

Thank you very much for the Post above detailing your views. This certainly helps in determining your precise position on this topic. Please allow me to point out a few things where we disagree.

AV >> Hey folks - let's make something clear up front - I'm enjoying our chat for it involves you folks here (Merry and Terral) who appear to believe:
1. That Christ did it all
2. We are searching for truth - which is rare on forums these days.

My position is more accurately stated that God did it all by sending His Son and by raising Him from the dead (Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). God has done the entire work in making the provision for our salvation and He sends the ‘preacher’ (Romans 10:14) out with the ‘word concerning Christ’ (Romans 10:17).

AV >> That being said - what we are doing here is seeking to fine-tune doctrine because it is a great doctrine (justification) coming from a great and mighty God. What I'm saying here I would never bring up to the lost man on the street or to the average saint today - this discussing is amongst the "family" here – no need to create confusion – there is already enough of that!!!

We agree. However, we are discussing the ‘doctrine of salvation’ (i.e., forgiveness of sins, receiving the Holy Spirit, etc.) which includes the component of Justification by faith apart from works (Romans 4:4-6) also. We agree that these ‘doctrines’ and doctrinal precepts are ‘teachings’ for discussion among the ‘saved’ “IN†Christ Jesus. These things do not mean very much to one seeking justification through obedience to our Gospel, if they do not have the Holy Spirit “IN†them also (1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19). We seem to have the same horse, cart and provisions in the cart also. The difference is that some of us have the cart outrunning the horse and running him over at the same time. : 0 ).

AV >> Now -the order? I personally believe that God draws men in time for he has chosen them from before the foundation of the world.

That is the Calvinist in you that is most certainly wrong. There is an epiphany experience in this for all the professing Calvinists here, if you will bear with my explanations. Let’s look at exactly what Paul teaches and set the events into motion in real time with my “highlights.â€Â

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing “IN†the heavenly places “IN†Christ, just as He chose us “IN†Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us “IN†the Beloved.†Ephesians 1:3-6.

Note very carefully that God has chosen you “IN†Christ before the foundation of the world and NOT outside of Him. Lean into this truth with all of your weight and then try to reason with yourself about how you were found “IN†Christ in the first place. Paul describes how we are ‘sealed in Him’ in the verses that follow, saying,

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed “IN†Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.†Ephesians 1:13-14.

The key for understanding here is that unbelievers are not found “IN†Christ Jesus to be chosen “IN†Him before the foundation of anything. The “gospel†itself is the “power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.†Romans 1:16. Paul describes this sealing process as his ‘one Baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) to the Corinthians, saying,

“For by one Spirit (Holy Spirit) we were all baptized (one Baptism = Ephesians 4:5) into one body (Ephesians 4:4), whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.†1 Corinthians 12:13-14.

This is the ‘one baptism’ connected to Paul’s ‘message of truth’ that finds you ‘sealed IN Him’ for the ‘day of redemption’ (Ephesians 4:30). Paul connects our being baptized into Christ Himself to being justified by faith at the same time, saying,

“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have clothed yourselves with Christ.†Galatians 3:23-27.

From here you must realize that God Almighty is INFINITE (Creation cannot contain Him = 1 Kings 8:27) and that He sees the very beginning (John 1:1) and the very end (1 Corinthians 15:28) as the same event. His Only Begotten Son (Christ Jesus) is the “IMAGE†of the Invisible God, which means He shares attributes with God in His Infinite Realm. The diagram looks like this:

Note carefully how the golden ring of God’s Infinite Realm covers “Christ Jesus†(F,S,HS) as your “one Mediator†AND the blue ring of this finite Creation overlaps Him also. Your obedience to the Gospel finds you “transferred†out of this “Domain of Darkness†into the “Kingdom of His Beloved Son.†Colossians 1:13. That moment of salvation is what finds you baptized “into Christ†through the “First Veil†dividing the body (Creation = water) and the soul (Word Realm = blood) of these three adjacent realms. Now that you are found “IN†Christ Jesus, God can THEN choose you from before the foundation of the World, because He is still standing in His Infinite Realm seeing the beginning AND the end of time itself. Everyone to reject our Gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12) are never found “IN†Christ Jesus to be chosen by God. The Calvinists view that some are called to hear the Gospel is DEAD WRONG. There is no such thing. He removes the ‘power of God’ from being ‘the Gospel’ to place that upon God’s Foreknowledge, when that is NOT Scriptural. The key for understanding is that everyone descended from Shem, Japheth and Ham (bearded races) are here from God’s Infinite Realm to be judged for offenses related to their participation in the Satanic Rebellion that took place long before this Creation was called into being.

Our infinite bodies are pressed against that blue “Second Veil†and God has our necks stretched through His Son’s Realm and into this Adamic Realm where we are being judged. When the unsaved of today look up into heaven, then they are looking up into the heavens of “This Creation.†When you believe our Gospel to be baptized into Christ Himself, then you are an entirely ‘new creation’ (Galatians 6:15) ‘created “IN†Christ Jesus’ (Ephesians 2:10). That means when we look up, then we are looking straight back into God’s Infinite Realm of Figure 2, as our heads have been rejoined to our Infinite bodies to make us “whole†again. Obedience to the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, etc.) gives the kingdom disciple membership in “Heaven†of “This Creation.†He continues looking up into the “Heavens†of “This Creation,†and has yet to become “One†with the Lamb (Revelation 19:5-10) which allows him to THEN make the 90 degree turn which the ‘cross’ symbolizes. Only then will his ‘heart’ be “IN†Christ, which will allow his head to poke back into God’s Infinite Realm and make him “whole†like us.

AV >> Since dead men cannot believe spiritual truths I believe they have to be regenerated before they can believe any spiritual truths. Won’t go to war over it but it is what I believe. If not then the choice is left up to man thus making man controlling his destiny thus being able to be the author of his destiny.

We disagree, AV. ONLY dead men can believe spiritual truths, which is why we had to die with Christ (Romans 6:8, Colossians 2:20) in order to then be baptized into His Body and be ‘chosen’ by God. When the preacher offers the gospel to 100 people, then some place themselves into the position obedience (hearing = Romans 10:17) and some simply do not (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). The reasons that some believe and some do not have everything to do with our active participation in the Satanic Rebellion that landed us here in the first place. This judgment process is ongoing as we speak, as all the events of John 1:1 to 1 Corinthians 15:28 appear to take place within just a few seconds from our perspective in God’s Infinite Realm. These things appear to take place over a period of time, because we are now living within the created envelope of time and space called into being in John 1:3. That is the difference from being an “Infinite†being in God’s Realm and being incarnated here into this Temporal Creation. If you could look out and see God’s face in His Infinite Realm from the very beginning to the very end, then all you would see is His frozen stare; because all the events inside this envelope of time and space pass by Him in the flash of a single instant. God’s participation in these events is done through His Three Witnesses of Revelation 1:8.

AV >> Yes, faith is a gift but whose faith is it? Look closely at Gal. 2:16 and you will see it is the faith of Jesus Christ – not ours unless, you read the modern versions which change the “of†to “in†thus making man’s faith the one that does the justifying.

We see the same truth taught in Romans 3:26 that the faith we receive (Romans 10:17) is the ‘faith of Jesus.’ If you use the Greek then the translations are all irrelevant. However, you still had to be “IN†Christ first, before God could choose you “IN†Him. Ephesians 1:4.

AV >> Again folks tough doctrine – the greatest writers, evangelists, preachers and missionaries of yesterday (who did far more for God than we ever will) took the stand that dead men can’t believe and all the work was done by God thus God getting all the glory.

The ‘power of God’ is still ‘the Gospel,’ and not His Foreknowledge (Romans 1:16), and the ‘faith to faith’ transaction still takes place between the ‘preacher’ (Romans 10:14) and the one ‘hearing’ (Romans 10:17) the gospel. When you place the ‘faith of Jesus’ “IN†the preacher to then be passed to the one ‘hearing’ in Romans 10:17, then you should also realize that the hearer is just then baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27) to THEN be ‘chosen’ by God. What does Paul say?

“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.†2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Note that we are called to God ‘through’ the Gospel and not ‘to’ the gospel.

AV >> Summary – the sinner is dead and blinded and not seeking God, the Spirit draws him in time, the Spirit quickens the sinner, his “eyes†are opened; now he can believe – I don’t see how it can be any other way.

Please try to understand the teaching from the perspective of Scripture, instead of upon our preconceived Calvinist notions. The Holy Spirit dwells in the body of the ‘preacher’ as the ‘temple of God’ (1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19) who also has the ‘faith of Jesus’ in his own heart. Our preaching of the Gospel is what makes the ‘faith of Jesus’ AND the ‘Holy Spirit of promise’ (Ephesians 1:13-14) available to the unsaved in the first place. Each individual person standing before that preacher either places himself into the position of obedience (hearing = Romans 10:17) or he has no time for such foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:21). That is a very simple concept if you just read Scripture for what it is clearly teaching.

AV >> This view also takes away all this nonsense about the saint being able to lose it. (snip)

Our lives are hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3) the moment we hear and believe Paul’s Gospel, as the Holy Spirit Himself seals us for the ‘day of redemption’ (Ephesians 4:30). Some people get this misguided notion, because those believing the “gospel of the Kingdom†(Matthew 24:14) must ‘endure to the end’ (Matthew 24:13) for salvation, which is another topic altogether. Everyone having the two gospels of the New Testament mixed into one will borrow to mix and match those doctrinal components in a variety of ways. Since the kingdom disciples believing the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ can lose their salvation, then those with things mixed together often carry that false notion about those believing Paul’s Gospel.

AV >> Merry, you and Terral seem to believe that Christ did it all and there is nothing we can add – that it is Christ’s work at Calvary that gets us home then praise the Lord – you are part of the few – praise the Lord!

Obedience to l’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message means NOT adding the works of the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ OR any other work to the process. Ephesians 2:8-9. God did all the work in sending His Son and raising Him from the dead (Romans 10:9), now it is up to us to simply “believe.â€Â

“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God . . . For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.†1 Corinthians 1:18-21.

AV >> Again – we are fine-tuning here – searching for truth – keeping it within the family. Many on this forum can’t even get justification right so they certainly are not ready to “search out the orderâ€Â. Now - how important is the order in the scheme of things? Not sure - the sinner doesn't need to know this to be saved but we, as saints, can search it out. (snip)

Very good, AV; we agree. However, having the order correct for believers is very important. The reason is that some are adding works to the process that makes void (1 Corinthians 1:17) the power of the cross to save. Your notion that God is calling men ‘to’ the gospel is not Scriptural, but He is calling us ‘through’ the gospel as the ‘power of God’ for salvation to everyone who believes. Romans 1:16.

In Christ Jesus apart from works,


Terral

 

[Heidi]

How do we come to believe? The million-dollar question....

... Although not every believer has this sort of salvation experience, the principle and way are the same for all.


Hope this helps.

In love,
cj

Talk about way off! Abraham did have the promise. And furthermore, all the prophets and chosen of the OT did receive the Holy Spirit at God's discretion. Where do you think our knowledge and faith comes from? The tooth fairy? :o Or possibly our superior intellect and wisdom. I'm sure that one appeals to you the best. "He who exalts himself will be humbled." And unfortunately, you have a long way to fall.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are folishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." That means anyone without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God and cannot therefore have faith in things he thinks are foolish. You need to read your bible and believe it before you make such preposterous claims.

 

[Heidi]

I knew I shouldn't have come back here just to see so many people contradict the bible to see their names in print. I wonder how many of the people here actually go out and help the poor, volunteer in their community or simply sit and type on this forum to try to appear enlightened. Real fruits are actions, not mere talk. I'm off to the church now where I volunteer everyday and don't have the leisure time to quibble about the law that many people here seem to have. So I'll leave you to your arguments and quarrles and make myself useful in society. Nobody ever listens to each other on this forum anyway. Cheers.