Some People Just Can’t “See†the Gospel

[Terral]

Foolish Is As Foolish Does . . .

Hi Heidi:

Heidi >> Talk about way off! Abraham did have the promise.

For you to quote CJ’s entire post to offer this puny reply is nonsense, but then to do so without any Scripture is more nonsense. We cannot even gain an understanding of what you are trying to refute in CJ’s testimony in this lackluster reply. Abraham might have seen the promise of something, but that did not give him the opportunity to hear (Romans 10:17) and believe (Ephesians 1:13-14) our gospel for today.

Heidi >> And furthermore, all the prophets and chosen of the OT did receive the Holy Spirit at God's discretion.

Really? Where did you arrive at this great knowledge? Do we see anyone laying hands for the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament like Peter and John are doing in Acts 8:16-17? No. Was anyone given eternal life in the Old Testament by obedience to any gospel message? No. Please provide your Scriptural references for these ‘chosen from the OT’ who received the Holy Spirit at God’s discretion.

Heidi >> Where do you think our knowledge and faith comes from? The tooth fairy? Or possibly our superior intellect and wisdom.

Those might appear to be some good guesses . . . What Scripture reveals is that no Hebrew term of the Old Testament is translated “faith†more than once. NASB. The term ‘faith’ also does not appear in the Gospel of John and the term ‘grace’ does not appear in the Four Gospels outside of John 1:14-17 and Luke 2:40. NASB. All of the verses containing the terms ‘faith’ and ‘grace’ appear in the Pauline Epistles. The Twelve Disciples had no faith at all, because our saving ‘faith of Jesus’ (Romans 3:26) was still “IN†Christ throughout the Four Gospels. How you perceive that our saving faith of today was available to anyone in the Old Testament is beyond me. Paul speaks of the time ‘before faith came’ (Galatians 3:23) and ‘now that faith has come’ (Galatians 3:25), but God milled that out of the ‘Bread of Life’ (John 6:48) at Calvary.

Heidi >> I'm sure that one appeals to you the best. "He who exalts himself will be humbled." And unfortunately, you have a long way to fall.

Lordy, Lordy . . . While I have not read through CJ’s entire reply yet, his post appears much more likely to contain ‘the truth’ than anything you have presented here. You are an active participant in these deliberations over the true interpretations of Scripture and the third party readers judge us all. To pass this dribble off as commentary and claim to have humbled somebody is not wise.

Heidi >> "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are folishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." That means anyone without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God and cannot therefore have faith in things he thinks are foolish. You need to read your bible and believe it before you make such preposterous claims.

Your job was to “quote CJ >>†and point those things out using Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15. Quoting his entire post to pass judgment apart from establishing any case is foolishness in itself. Shouting “tooth fairy†and “superior†this and that is acting childish at best, even if later we find out that Terral totally disagrees with CJ. Please look up those chosen ones receiving the Holy Spirit at “God’s discretion†at you earliest convenience. That should be really special indeed . . .

Heidi >> So I'll leave you to your arguments and quarrles and make myself useful in society. Nobody ever listens to each other on this forum anyway. Cheers.

Heh . . . 3000 posts later? People most certainly are persuaded by convincing arguments supported by God's Living Word. All that anyone has here is seeds and God is causing the growth. 1 Corinthians 3:6-7. Some of us are feeding the poor in spirit seeking knowledge right here. : 0 ).

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Vic C.]

Re: Foolish Is As Foolish Does . . .

Hi Heidi:

Heidi >> Talk about way off! Abraham did have the promise.

For you to quote CJ’s entire post to offer this puny reply is nonsense, but then to do so without any Scripture is more nonsense. We cannot even gain an understanding of what you are trying to refute in CJ’s testimony in this lackluster reply. Abraham might have seen the promise of something, but that did not give him the opportunity to hear (Romans 10:17) and believe (Ephesians 1:13-14) our gospel for today....

8-) No, terrel and myself are not the same person. Pelase excuse the quote terrel, I will fix it. :

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I understand that faith is a gift from God but what I'm trying to establish here is the order in which everything happens.

Hey folks - let's make something clear up front - I'm enjoying our chat for it involves you folks here (Merry and Terral) who appear to believe:
1. That Christ did it all
2. We are searching for truth - which is rare on forums these days.

Thanks

Now -the order? I personally believe that God draws men in time for he has chosen them from before the foundation of the world. Since dead men cannot believe spiritual truths I believe they have to be regenerated before they can believe any spiritual truths. Won’t go to war over it but it is what I believe. If not then the choice is left up to man thus making man controlling his destiny thus being able to be the author of his destiny.

Well here's what I think...yes God draws men, he also enables them to believe. Then they believe - then they are regenerated by the Holy Ghost. Ok so God is moving and working on them before they are born again - but I believe that the belief needs to come before the rebirth.

Yes, faith is a gift but whose faith is it? Look closely at Gal. 2:16 and you will see it is the faith of Jesus Christ – not ours unless, you read the modern versions which change the “of†to “in†thus making man’s faith the one that does the justifying.

I would inclined to agree with you here.

Again folks tough doctrine – the greatest writers, evangelists, preachers and missionaries of yesterday (who did far more for God than we ever will) took the stand that dead men can’t believe and all the work was done by God thus God getting all the glory.

Yes but see I believe all the work is done by God too - it's just that I believe that God gives them faith/belief before regeneration. I also don't believe that he does it via opening their eyes in the spiritual sense. I believe that the works of God that are being made manifest in the physical realm is enough for them to see that there is a God - and then God gives them the ability to believe. After regeneration THEN they are actually able to see the spirit realm.

Summary – the sinner is dead and blinded and not seeking God, the Spirit draws him in time, the Spirit quickens the sinner, his “eyes†are opened; now he can believe – I don’t see how it can be any other way. This view also takes away all this nonsense about the saint being able to lose it. You put man’s choosing into the picture and then it leaves room for folks to say they can “unchoose†it later. If you don’t see it then that’s fine – I didn’t for many years either. At any rate I won’t throw rocks – I’m a student (and a poor one at that) not an expert – still wrestling and learning.

Ok but the HOly Spirit is what quickens right? And Peter stood up and said "Repent, be baptised and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"...so it's obvious that the HOly Spirit comes AFTER belief and repentence. Yes it's God who enables them to repent and believe but I believe he does all that before regeneration.

Merry, you and Terral seem to believe that Christ did it all and there is nothing we can add – that it is Christ’s work at Calvary that gets us home then praise the Lord – you are part of the few – praise the Lord!

Yes 100%

Again – we are fine-tuning here – searching for truth – keeping it within the family. Many on this forum can’t even get justification right so they certainly are not ready to “search out the orderâ€Â. Now - how important is the order in the scheme of things? Not sure - the sinner doesn't need to know this to be saved but we, as saints, can search it out.

Well...for me...God still has to stand by his word. And there are requirements for us to repent and believe in the one he sent and then we are then to be filled with the HOly Spirit of promise. Now yes it is OUR requirement but I believe that it's God who works through us first to enable us to fulfil that requirement. THEN God's requirement is to fulfil his end of the bargain and seal us with his Holy Spirit. Ok sure maybe the order isn't all that important when all is said and done, but I'm making it important ok ;)

 

[Imagican]

Interesting posts guys.

But AV, one question concerning all that is posted so far; What was the purpose of God's creation of man to start with? And why did Christ need to die?

I know, it may seem like 'two' questions, but the answer is the same for each one, so in essence it's one question. Just asked them both so perhaps the realization will set in even more obviously.

And after you answer these two questions, I believe that you will see that there is more to it than sometimes 'meets' the eyes. We WERE commanded to also offer, rather than simply 'accept' what God has given.

The simple fact that it is stated that 'faith' without 'works' is DEAD is a prime indication that it takes more than 'faith' alone. I wouldn't say that we are commanded to 'works' to receive salvation, but we were commanded SPECIFICALLY to do certain things and I just wonder how one could possibly read around this.

And beyond reading, I think that there is a basic understanding that becomes apparent to ANYONE that 'truly' finds God's purpose. Without an understanding of 'this purpose' there is no 'reason' for ANYTHING that has been offered, either through the Spirit, or through the Word.

 

[mutzrein]

Purely from an academic point of view, I have always believed in God, but I only knew Him when I was born again.

Now my spiritual birth was the manifestation of the gift that was placed within me. Much the same as my natural birth being the manifestation of the seed planted within my mother. After birth, I didn’t have to apply any intellectual reasoning to be able to say, “I am my father’s son.†I didn’t have to ‘believe†in order to become his son. I am his son and I knew him because he gave me life. I knew him because I was in him and now he is in me. We are one . . . but we are different people - you can take my word for it.

Anyway – a glimpse – if you can see it. Don’t worry if you can’t.