Some Things.. Hard To Be Understood..

[smaller]

Absolutely.. is not this clearly what Paul speaks of in Romans 7.. that evil IS present with me ?

BINGO...and congratulations!

Do you know how many believers think it's only them?

Now, when we walk through the scriptures we know that 'every Word' of God is fully true and fully applicable, one way or another.

We can understand that 'all' the damnation and condemnation Words fully apply to that which we carry as believers that is 'not us.' We battle that working. We know that when 'we' fail that Christ is our Ally, but NOT the ally of the other working.

It's quite simple, really. But that leaves us with a very good reason to 'fear God' with Godly fear, knowing that the evil present with us can and does receive 'tribulation' and that such is justified by God. This does not make life a bowl of cherries, but at least we go forward with 'understanding' of 'why.'

There is a reason that judgment 'begins' at the house of the Lord, the Temple. That temple is 'our body/mind/heart.' But it requires us to be truthful 'within' about certain ugly facts. In order to be 'in Truth' one must admit the presence of a liar within our minds and hearts that is 'not us.' Those who cannot do this or see this remain under that power, not able to 'divide' themselves from that working. And this is for believer or unbeliever. The unbeliever is an unknowing slave. The believer who does not see this has in actuality been captured by a more dire 'religious' anti-Christ spirit, and that is part of being on the front lines of the 'battle zone' being 'exposed' to Word. We are their enemies. They are our enemies.

When TRUTH is therein we CAN and do come to grips with these facts because He Leads us there by His Word.

But if you ask me the question of whether we have release and freedom from that working of the tempter in this present life? Absolutely NOT, period. We can account that reality as a HOPE and understand our bodies are dead because of sin, but that presence never leaves us either until we pass from here. In the meantime understanding and knowledge does provide a very certain amount of comfort imho.

Absolutely, it is no longer I but sin that dwelleth in me.. not too complicated imo.. although that doesn't mean that I would fully understand all that it entails.. would you ?

I agree. That working is very much a subtle part of our personalities respectively. It is a process to come to grips with it and it certainly changes us over time. Grace leads us to live a better life. Understanding our enemies often can make them stronger and the battles intensify. It's an interesting dichotomy. Often I have plead to God in the past, 'why me Lord?!' Why are you cursing me?! I haven't done anything wrong.

Now I know better. You see even in external passivity, God does retain the right to work against that which we carry. Just because it doesn't appear on the outside, it doesn't mean we don't have it.

That is also why Jesus 'amplified' or 'magnified' the Law, in order to point out this fact to us, changing for example the external law of adultery to the mere thought of same. This is not to force us to eliminate adulterous thoughts or any other evil form of thoughts. The tempter will not, can not and does not stop the attacks, ever. The Law then alerts us to the fact of the enemies presence. It exacerbates that working of evil within the mind and heart. And that moves us to the DIVISION between us and that working, exactly as the Law always intended.

Now read this and understand what the real SWord is:

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

That Sword is the Living Word of God within us, dividing 'us' as Gods children from that which we and all other people carry. Read the wisdom of Solomon in dividing the child and you'll see the same analogy! That is the wisdom of God in Solomon shown in a very veiled way. I could go on but....you will see it yourself. You don't need a teacher.

Why would you say something that I haven't said as if I did..?

My question was simple and you will not answer it..

Can the gospel itself set a person free from the lies and deception around them and that result in a person trusting in Christ ?

When you say 'around' you have not yet stepped into your own temple in honesty. It's never the other people or external circumstances. All of that is the 'last' and 'external' reflection of what is going on within everyone.

The real cause is 'internal' and in all of us. There is no release in this present life, period. Those who rest on their lees and forget these matters will continue in slumber as the spirit of slumber will come upon them.

Or maybe you consider the lies and deception of Satan as more powerful than the gospel itself.. I'm just curious if that's what you actually believe.

Not at all. But I have zero interest in lying to myself about the facts. Truth carries the facts within. Those who forget will be consumed by their own internal enemies. And that is Gods Word arousing same within them, raising up the vessel of dishonor in them over their minds. If you hear the sirens song of 'relax' and 'don't fret,' you you you are under Grace or you you you are obedient to the Law or to 'works' or whatever that voice says to justify you, that is in fact the voice of the tempter in your mind, making you forget who you have as an enemy companion.

enjoy!

s

 

[Eventide]

Thanks smaller.. that's what I was interested in understanding.. and your comment "Not at all" answers that. So that's great.

IMO you act as if you're the only one here who understands that evil is present with us.. or that there is sin in me that is not actually me.. and again, I wouldn't claim to understand all that entails.. although I'm certainly aware of it.

 

[smaller]

Thanks smaller.. that's what I was interested in understanding.. and your comment "Not at all" answers that. So that's great.

IMO you act as if you're the only one here who understands that evil is present with us.. or that there is sin in me that is not actually me.. and again, I wouldn't claim to understand all that entails.. although I'm certainly aware of it.

It it pleasant for me as a believer to hear honesty from other believers on this subject.

So, thanks!

s

 

[childeye]

=smaller;576200]
You are in the above already showing the cloudiness of that influence. I don't say that to slur you. For example, you instantly point to the flesh and the carnal mind. That is not the cause. We do not wrestle flesh [Eph. 6.12]. The flesh is a compilation of organic material. The carnal mind is blinded by the god of this world, the devil.

I don't feel slurred but thanks for the concern, no worries. Of course you realize, that it could be you who is cloudy by that influence. In fact who could be sure of anything if we were to go that far? For I did not mean to imply we wrestle against flesh. What I said was through the flesh as in carnal thinking.
Satan tempts through the allures of the flesh as in carnal motives that are defined as self serving to the worldy and a temporal existence. But the Holy Spirit takes care of this by exposing the lies that such temptations are empowered by exposing them as carnal in nature and rendering such temptations impotent. This is why Satan must kill the preachers of Truth. I could say tons more on this issue.

In the above we have 'entrance of that entity,' and theft, which is a sin committed in that person and NOT the cause of the person and it was STARTED by Word. Now apply that principle to THE LAW! Law is WORD. Word prompts the entry of the THIEF into the PERSON.

.
And what happened next? Then came the LAW...do not eat. Then came disobedience. Do you seriously think that Satan was not involved in the mind and hearts of both of them given the PRINCIPLE of JESUS above?


It hasn't changed one bit since. Take Peter for another example. God in Christ placed TRUTH in Peter. What happened in Peter in nearly the next breath? Yeah, Satan was speaking through him. Pretty simple really. What happened to Judas? Yeah, Word sown in him by Jesus. What happened to him? That's right. Satan 'entered' Judas.
I think it goes much deeper than that.
Now the common blind believer will only blame Adam, Peter or Judas.

None of these blinded ones can see or put their finger on Satan. Why? Because they too have the same internal problem with the DECEIVER in them that is blinding them to the open facts. And guess what else? They don't know it, can't see it, won't be able to say it as a fact for themselves. This is the [missing] mark of blinded believers. It is also why believers are divided, fight and continually bicker. Because of that presence of the deceiver/tempter. I readily admit that presence 'personally' because it's a fact. But I am not alone. The Spirit of Truth, of Christ, is also IN ME, that is 'in the midst' of me dividing me from the tempter. You could count the number of believers who have come to facts on this matter as 'very very few.'

Yes I agree that there is division after all religion killed the Christ and evryone else God sent. Believe me, I and others here are not all blind and lame.

The freewill position is annihilated by this fact.

Some people here are just saying we make choices. They do not comprehend sometimes how that is irrelevant concerning the powers that would have us decide one way or the other as we are discussing. After all Satan is transformed as an angel of light.

A friend of mine has a good take on Satan. He can only 'react' adversely to God as that is how God made him. He is like a robot.

The devil 'in man' will NEVER obey the Law, nor should we expect him to 'in man.'
[/QUOTE]
I can't say I agree with your friend completely. The workings of Satan are more intricate than that, I do believe.

 

[Eventide]

It it pleasant for me as a believer to hear honesty from other believers on this subject.

So, thanks!

s

It's a pleasure to hear your commentary as well smaller. Thanks for excellent input on this broad topic.

 

[smaller]

I don't feel slurred but thanks for the concern, no worries. Of course you realize, that it could be you who is cloudy by that influence.

I readily admit knowing only in part, seeing darkly and the influences in my mind and heart by the tempter.

Do you hold those facts against me? If so, why?

In fact who could be sure of anything if we were to go that far?

Sorry, not following your line of reasoning.

For a believer there is only one measure...Word. I know every believer makes that claim, but to encompass it it must all be fully accepted and none eliminated whatsoever from personal applicability from cover to cover. And I know every believer makes that claim too, but for the most part believers stop dead in their tracks when it comes to this particular subject matter and understanding that the dire and ill Words of God apply to what we all carry, evil present/the tempter in thought, word and deeds, sinning.

There is an automatic tendency to defray away from ones self in any form and to point to anyone and anything else but evil present and the tempter within themselves. And this is in fact a working in believers by the tempter in not allowing them to handle the facts of his presence within us.

For I did not mean to imply we wrestle against flesh. What I said was through the flesh as in carnal thinking.

The observation remains, 'by whom?'

Satan tempts through the allures of the flesh as in carnal motives that are defined as self serving to the worldy and a temporal existence. But the Holy Spirit takes care of this by exposing the lies that such temptations are empowered by exposing them as carnal in nature and rendering such temptations impotent. This is why Satan must kill the preachers of Truth. I could say tons more on this issue.

I would generally agree with the above, with emphasis on the cause.

Yes I agree that there is division after all religion killed the Christ and evryone else God sent. Believe me, I and others here are not all blind and lame.

All humanity that ever was were ultimately killed by Satan. That is the role he plays in this present environ. Again you are welcome to look to other sources or anything but. It's a common methodology of that same influence.

Some people here are just saying we make choices.

Pointing to the fact that nobody makes decisions for the tempter and nobody can stop the tempter from working in their minds and hearts, period. Claimants can cloak that matter however they please. It's a lie created in them by the tempter.

Defraying the fact to external final decisions did not affect the internal workings whatsoever. Many believing men believe that just because the tempter places a thought of adultery in their minds, if they don't act or refuse the thought that a sin in mind did not transpire. That is not true. The tempter sinned in them by placing it therein regardless and their supposed freewill or choice did not and can not stop that. This same axiom could be applied to any particular sin thought.

They do not comprehend sometimes how that is irrelevant concerning the powers that would have us decide one way or the other as we are discussing. After all Satan is transformed as an angel of light.

Indeed, even into Apostles. You know they are false when they can't admit the facts as Paul did for himself.

Paul linked the placement of the messenger of satan upon him as a weakness, in which Gods Power is Perfected.

Why? Because God shows His Glory by overcoming that. We do not and can not on our own. No amount of decision making changes the fact of the tempters presence. Paul elaborates quite nicely on this exact matter in Romans 9:19-21, one of the most misunderstood passages in the entire N.T. It was a 'personal' observation from Paul applied to himself.

I can't say I agree with your friend completely. The workings of Satan are more intricate than that, I do believe.

Claim what you will. An anti-Christ spirit with no truth in him can do nothing but ILLegality no matter what comes out of his mouth (which is done through MAN.)

enjoy!

s

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

I see the thread has taken a turn to other things since I’ve been away. This is in regard to your post #4.


“FC.. just out of curiousity.. what makes your comments any different ? You read the same scriptures and form opinions as to what they mean.. and surely you don't believe that you have it all figured out without error.. or do you ?
So YOU interpret the scriptures just like everyone else.. either that or you believe that you're above everyone else.â€

Everybody interprets the Bible. So it must be the right thing to do. So I’m going to do it too. And anyone who opposes what we’re doing is really doing the same thing we’re doing and arrogant for not thinking so.

Nice going. In your attempt to make me like you, you’ve just admitted you place your faith in an opinion. One point for the Atheists.

A rationalization, no matter how reasonable it sounds, is still a rationalization.

Since anything I say about the Bible is just my opinion, it seems a waste of time to even post anything. What would be a reasonable reason to talk about things that are nothing more than opinions? Is it just suppose to be fun? I prefer talking about things that are a little more real than just opinions.

Maybe it’s just like Opium. But I still believe that the Bible is more than just the writings of a few long dead men. Rather futile if all it amounts to are opinions. And I would like to know your reasons for thinking that what I believe is just an opinion. Other than just it disagrees with your opinions, of course. Prove to me that I interpret the Scriptures just like everyone else. And that I’m an arrogant fool for thinking otherwise.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

I wrote the following post before I wrote the above post. Just thought I might as well post it so as not to let it go to waste. This post seems rather futile now. Futile in that I’m writing it to someone who thinks that what I write is due to my practice of interpretation, and hence, just personal opinions. Here are my opinions, for what their worth, about Peter and the things of Paul that are hard to understand. And my opinions about the practice of interpretation that is so precious to Christians.

2 Peter 3:
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
(NIV)

What does Peter say? Who does he say is not understanding Paul? The uneducated? The one’s who haven’t learnedly studied the Bible taking into account what the whole Bible says (as if that’s even possible for people without a photographic memory)? The ones who are so natural in their thinking that they can’t understand the Bible? Is that what you’re defending? What people read between the lines is harder for me to understand than anything Paul wrote.

Is it impossible to show what Peter is really saying without it being just another interpretation, just another opinion? Because that’s all an interpretation is, an opinion. And if impossible, doesn’t that prove that the Bible is just the writings of long dead men, subject to the interpretations of men who still live? Just like the writings of other long dead men, like Aristotle and Shakespeare? How anyone could mistake the writings of dead men, or their own interpretations of them, for something that a God might say, is harder for me to understand than anything Paul wrote.

Does ignorant mean uneducated? If so, those who aren’t reading their Bibles are doing the right thing if they haven’t the education to understand it. But what does Peter say? Ignorant AND unstable people. Now that’s a whole different breed of person, wouldn’t you say. And what are they doing? Distorting. Not only what Paul says, but what the whole Bible is saying. Now, that’s what gives the Bible interpreter the excuse to interpret. Not just that Paul is hard to understand, but the whole Bible is hard to understand. One needs an education to understand the Bible properly. Now, I ask you. Wouldn’t you say that a bunch of people, educated or not, who aren’t understanding the Bible the same way, wouldn’t that constitute a bunch of people who are distorting the Bible? And since understanding the Bible is crucial to gaining eternal life, wouldn’t you say they are understanding the Bible in a way that leads to their own destruction? Or do you rationalize through the possibility that one of those interpretations might actually be true?

Peter refers to these people as lawless men, lawless men who are making this error. How many Christians would you consider lawless men? Everyone who sins or ever has sinned, thus not keeping the Law? Or is Peter referring to a certain class of people? People who aren’t believers in the Law of God; people who would trample the Law under foot just on general principle? What does Peter recommend in relation to these lawless men? Not be carried away by their error. Consider that in relation to Bible interpreters. Are they all lawless? No doubt, there are some well meaning law abiding citizens of the Kingdom amongst them. But is this what makes the Bible so hard to understand? Does this make the practice of Bible interpretation the right thing to do?

Grow in the knowledge of doctrine. Grow in our ability to interpret the Bible in the proper way. Grow in our understanding of the doctrines of our denomination. Is that what Peter recommends? If not, shouldn’t he have recommended that at the very least, if Paul’s writings are so hard to understand, if the Bible is so hard to understand? Peter only says that Paul’s writings contain some things that are hard to be understood. Not that everything he wrote is hard to understand. And remember to whom they are hard to understand.

Grow in grace. Do we need an educated interpretation to know what that means? The Greek word comes from a word that means rejoice. Does my knowing that constitute an interpretation to come? Grace is nothing more than that which gives us reason to rejoice. Joy that is the fruit of the Spirit comes from that same root word. Joy is what makes us rejoice. When we read about the grace of God, it is in the Bible for a reason. That we might have joy and rejoice. If you want to understand this more clearly, read the Psalms. It’s all there in experiential black and white.

Grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. How hard is that to understand? Wouldn’t you say that this should be the normal desire for all who are in Christ? All who consider Jesus their Lord, their Saviour?

Do we need an education to grow? Do we grow through the practice of interpretation?

Are we really any different than a plant? What does a plant need to grow? Sun and proper nourishment from the soil, carbon dioxide from the air. Some say a little tender loving care doesn’t hurt. If one considers Jesus as light, his teaching as he uses the Bible the proper nourishment, and the Spirit through which the teaching of Jesus comes the very air we breathe, and the grace of a personal God; wouldn’t that pretty much promote growth? More than any Bible interpretation that’s just an opinion?

Am I interpreting the Bible? Do I consider myself above everyone else? Or do I think I’ve found the way all who are in Christ are supposed to understand the Bible? The supernatural way to understand the Bible, that gives a better understanding of the Bible than any practice of Bible interpretation, which is a natural way to understand the Bible. Do I think I’ve come up with some deep way to know God and Jesus Christ? Or is it simply the way everyone who is in Christ is supposed to know them? Something that a Bible interpreter can’t understand, because it’s too hard for him to understand, because it’s of the wrong realm?

But what do I know? I’m just a Former Christian. A former member of a man-made religion that refers to itself, and is referred to, as Christianity. So long, that just about everyone associates the “Christian” Bible with it; so that to reject one, one is expected to reject them both.

And with good reason....what with all those different denominationally educated opinions of what the Bible says in Christianity, through the practice of Bible interpretation.

I may be tolerant of other peoples viewpoints, but I do have my own understanding of the Bible. An understanding that I believe is true because I have faith in the source of that understanding. A source that I believe is not just my own mind. A source that I haven’t interpreted to make it something of my own mind. Rather, a source that I’ve just accepted on face value that what he says is true.

If all I have is just another interpretation, if the source of my understanding is just myself practicing Bible interpretation, one of two things will happen. I’ll eventually see enough evidence that proves without a doubt that I’ve been deceiving myself, and I’ll revert to Atheism as an interpretation of reality that makes more sense. Or I’ll never realize it and go to my grave hoping in an illusion based on my own opinions.

If all any of us have is an interpretation, none of us will know of our deception in the end, because we’ll be dead, long gone, never to live again. And only a third of the human population will have been deceived by this particular illusion, that a God sent his Son that we might have eternal life. Something believed as an interpretation by those in Christianity who believe in the practice of Bible interpretation.

If the science supporting the idea of Evolutionism is true, as the majority of Christians believe these days, then Buddhism would make better sense as a religion, than Christianity.

FC

 

[Eventide]

FC,

I don't believe that I've ever met a person who believes that they know everything that there is to know concerning the holy scriptures.. and that their own understanding of them is perfect.

Perhaps that is because for many the word of God is living and powerful.. and not just some static lifeless book. His words are spirit and they are life. The holy scriptures are the mind of Christ.. they're His words.. His thoughts etc..

How would you grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ if you already KNOW and have attained Godspeed understanding of all that is written ?

 

[childeye]

=smaller;576291]I readily admit knowing only in part, seeing darkly and the influences in my mind and heart by the tempter.

Do you hold those facts against me? If so, why?

I would not hold anything against anybody lest I incriminate myself. After all that is what we are discussing, the way Satan causes us to blame question and doubt each others integity of character, so as to condemn ourselves even as we condemn others.

Sorry, not following your line of reasoning.

I'm essentially saying the same thing above, if we go too far means to not trust anybody because it might be the devil ruling in them and even my distrust of them may be the devil working in me. This would be insanity.

For a believer there is only one measure...Word. I know every believer makes that claim, but to encompass it it must all be fully accepted and none eliminated whatsoever from personal applicability from cover to cover. And I know every believer makes that claim too, but for the most part believers stop dead in their tracks when it comes to this particular subject matter and understanding that the dire and ill Words of God apply to what we all carry, evil present/the tempter in thought, word and deeds, sinning.

The measure is love your neighbor as yourself, and Love God with all your heart mind and soul. All lies ever invented are intent on making a person think and walk contrary to these two things.

I would generally agree with the above, with emphasis on the cause.
All humanity that ever was were ultimately killed by Satan. That is the role he plays in this present environ. Again you are welcome to look to other sources or anything but. It's a common methodology of that same influence.
Pointing to the fact that nobody makes decisions for the tempter and nobody can stop the tempter from working in their minds and hearts, period. Claimants can cloak that matter however they please. It's a lie created in them by the tempter.

I need not look for any sources, the scripture tells us that Satan is the Father of lies. His power is deception and even he is deceived. However, deeper still is why has Satan become what he is, for he was once perfect. The answers according to scripture are pride and vanity which brought forth iniquity. This pride accurately described as a disregard for the Character and position of God as God.

Indeed, even into Apostles. You know they are false when they can't admit the facts as Paul did for himself.

God allows what He allows and He has His good purpose.

Claim what you will. An anti-Christ spirit with no truth in him can do nothing but ILLegality no matter what comes out of his mouth (which is done through MAN.)

I do think God has made Satan to serve a certain purpose. He is a means to a way. The reason however why he has no Truth is because he does not comprehend God as in character and position of the Godhead. It is ignorance of God that fosters pride and vanity, which is why I say the only freewill is one that has the knowledge of God. Such an enlightened will would never seek to disobey God out of a true and pure devotion.

Here is a point to ponder. Let's say I told you I knew something you don't know. And you said how do I know you know something I don't know? It is like a man who can see is describing to a blind man what he sees, yet the blind man cannot know for sure what the seeing man is describing is actually true. Indeed he cannot even know if the seeing man actually sees. Such is the condition of men without the knowledge of God. This knowledge comes in the Christ and is seen in his words, life, and death upon the cross. The True Image of God through which all men may know God for themselves. This knowledge can only be apprehended by believing, and even believing must be granted by God according to his timetable serving His ends.

 

[smaller]

I would not hold anything against anybody lest I incriminate myself. After all that is what we are discussing, the way Satan causes us to blame question and doubt each others integity of character, so as to condemn ourselves even as we condemn others.

That is why I posted to you. I know from what you say above that you are under the good tutelage of Word and Spirit as shown above. You are in direct compliance with Romans 2:1...that tells me your ears have been opened.

I hope you see I am trying show that the text does also give us a proper understanding of the other side of the coin, which is in no WAY meant to slur you as Gods child, which I do not practice either.

I'm essentially saying the same thing above, if we go too far means to not trust anybody because it might be the devil ruling in them and even my distrust of them may be the devil working in me. This would be insanity.

I try to understand and discern with everyone 'whom' I may be in discussion with. That too is a leading and there are very certain giveaways. For example, those who do not conform to what you just described above, would be in my leadings, speaking from the other side of the hat...i.e. not them as Gods child. I put this in type knowing that few will see it or understand.

The measure is love your neighbor as yourself, and Love God with all your heart mind and soul. All lies ever invented are intent on making a person think and walk contrary to these two things.

Again, agree in complete totality. That is the mutual sharing we have been invited into from Above, from our Father. It is in this way I recognize my allies. But you also understand that this is not allowed in most spaces? [insert chuckle and sigh]

I need not look for any sources, the scripture tells us that Satan is the Father of lies. His power is deception and even he is deceived. However, deeper still is why has Satan become what he is, for he was once perfect.

Not true. There is no record of perfect in the sense of holy perfection for Satan. Here is a token. Someone perfect in 'all his ways' still means perfect in DEVIL ways. Sometimes our initial reactions are not warranted. I read the same scripture for many years before I realized that was not what it was saying. A perfect devil is a perfect devil....meaning 'still a devil.'

God made the destroyer to destroy and destroy he does. On cue.

The answers according to scripture are pride and vanity which brought forth iniquity. This pride accurately described as a disregard for the Character and position of God as God.

I'll stand by my prior statement. There is no record of Satan ever being holy as in Angel Holy in the text. Doesn't exist.

God allows what He allows and He has His good purpose.

Yes, ultimately I believe God controls all things on either side of the ledgers.

I do think God has made Satan to serve a certain purpose. He is a means to a way.

Again, we agree. Part of those purposes are shown in Romans 11:32 (NIV is best) and also Romans 9:19-30 or so. There is also hope that rises from this environment. These are eternally worthy matters that we will carry forward from the exposures here. I am sure even Jesus hoped the soldiers would stop whipping Him and pounding nails through His Hands and feet and putting thorns on the outside of His Head [see any demonic actions in that?] Yet uttered not His Voice. A Divine Partaker. Not just giving lip service.

The reason however why he has no Truth is because he does not comprehend God as in character and position of the Godhead. It is ignorance of God that fosters pride and vanity, which is why I say the only freewill is one that has the knowledge of God. Such an enlightened will would never seek to disobey God out of a true and pure devotion.

I don't attribute any truth ever being in Satan. He was a murderer from the beginning. No dispute there to me. Some will try and say 'he turned' that way at some point, but from the beginning is from the beginning in my read. I don't believe satan went south by making 'bad freewill' decisions. If I saw it in text, I'd believe it.

Here is a point to ponder. Let's say I told you I knew something you don't know. And you said how do I know you know something I don't know? It is like a man who can see is describing to a blind man what he sees, yet the blind man cannot know for sure what the seeing man is describing is actually true. Indeed he cannot even know if the seeing man actually sees. Such is the condition of men without the knowledge of God. This knowledge comes in the Christ and is seen in his words, life, and death upon the cross. The True Image of God through which all men may know God for themselves. This knowledge can only be apprehended by believing, and even believing must be granted by God according to his timetable serving His ends.

I attribute any non hearing to the cause...see 2 Cor. 4:4 for an example of many such examples. Doesn't mean I think any less of any person, believer or unbeliever. I also agree with you that none can hear unless they are activated and allowed by God. We all also serve God in judgments by what we carry. So all do God service regardless.

enjoy!

s

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

“I don't believe that I've ever met a person who believes that they know everything that there is to know concerning the holy scriptures.. and that their own understanding of them is perfect.
Perhaps that is because for many the word of God is living and powerful.. and not just some static lifeless book. His words are spirit and they are life. The holy scriptures are the mind of Christ.. they're His words.. His thoughts etc..
How would you grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ if you already KNOW and have attained Godspeed understanding of all that is written ?”

You did that on purpose didn’t you? Did I say anything that even remotely resembles what you said? Did I say I know everything about the Scriptures? Did I say my own understanding of the Scriptures is perfect? Didn’t I say that what I do know I attribute to Jesus who has taught me using the Scriptures? Nothing you said had anything at all to do with what I said.

Did you understand anything I said in those two posts? Or are you just out to make fun of me? Because if you are, you prove your own self. And if you are, you may be a Christian, but you obviously aren’t in Christ. Because you’re making fun of Christ, not me. Christ is the one who says to follow him and no one else. Christ is the one who says to follow him and not our own opinions or that of anyone else's derived from interpretation.

You're a Protestant. And like all Protestants, you think that the Bible is something it isn't. It's only letters by itself. And if you want to interpret it, that's your business, I'm sure. But there's no way that you can say that your interpretations mean the same as what the Bible actually says. To know what the Bible says, you're going to have to go to Jesus and learn at his feet. You're going to have to walk by the Spirit to hear what the Spirit is saying to the ekklesia. Cliches will do you no good.

FC

 

[childeye]

=smaller;576332]
Not true. There is no record of perfect in the sense of holy perfection for Satan. Here is a token. Someone perfect in 'all his ways' still means perfect in DEVIL ways. Sometimes our initial reactions are not warranted. I read the same scripture for many years before I realized that was not what it was saying. A perfect devil is a perfect devil....meaning 'still a devil.'

God made the destroyer to destroy and destroy he does. On cue.

I'll stand by my prior statement. There is no record of Satan ever being holy as in Angel Holy in the text. Doesn't exist.

Ezekiel 28:15

King James Version (KJV)


15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


I was refering to perfect in his ways.

I don't attribute any truth ever being in Satan. He was a murderer from the beginning. No dispute there to me. Some will try and say 'he turned' that way at some point, but from the beginning is from the beginning in my read. I don't believe satan went south by making 'bad freewill' decisions. If I saw it in text, I'd believe it.

Above it is said in Ezekial 28:15, "till iniquity was found in thee".
Then in
Ezekiel 28:17

King James Version (KJV)


17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Then read this:
Job 41:15

King James Version (KJV)


15His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

And this:
Job 41:33-34

King James Version (KJV)



33Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. 34He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Now I can see from these descriptions that something happened to this covering Cherub and it is clear he did not fear even high things and was proud which means he did not esteem God as God. Satan said in his heart, "i shall ascend my throne above the stars of heaven even unto the throne of God".

In vanity he took himself too seriously not recognizing that for all his beauty, he was just a creature even as every creature below his place of prominence was. All his gifted abilities were God's making and not his own. And his children are the same so that the attributes of Satan can be found in mankind causing sin in the same way for the same reasons.

The reason I feel this is important, is because this same thing could happen to anyone with a false image of god. For we see that Satan thinks that God sits at the top telling everybody else what to do and he desires the same. But the Christ shows us that God is at the bottom holding everything up and is a servant to all. And so this Christ is the knowledge of God, the Spirit of Truth that Satan did not possess.
This is why darkness cannot comprehend the light.

 

[Eventide]

FC,

Maybe saying it this way will help..

What you do know about the bible is beyond reproof, correct.. ?

Good luck with that.

 

[childeye]

This has turned out to be a great and illuminating thread. Read it!!!

 

[Eventide]

AMEN to that..

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

"What you do know about the bible is beyond reproof, correct.. ?
Good luck with that."


As near as I can make out, your question is something like,

What do you know about the Bible that is beyond reproof or is definitively correct?

Since that's a question only a non-believer would ask, I’m still in hope I've misunderstood the question. But by your addition of "Good luck with that", I have to wonder how you really understand the Bible. You have words, like mentioning John 6:63 and Heb 4:12, totally out of context I might add, but seem to not have the reality. You seem to be just a part of the religion.

Personally, I'm not a follower of the Christian religion any more. But I do still believe the Bible has its source in the God that the Bible describes. I still believe that the God it describes is living and the Son of God or Jesus Christ is living. And it may be just mysticism like the occult or Astrology to you, but I believe that they are involved in my life, not just in a religious way, but in a personal way. That is, I believe in what’s called a personal God. My brother, on the other hand does not. He’s a Deist. He rejected both Christianity as a man-made religion and the Bible as a collection of ancient human writings. He only considers the Bible to be human thinking regarding the supernatural, but to not have any more significance than that. But he does believe that a God created everything and then left it to run on its own. Like Thomas Jefferson, and a number of other founders of the American nation.

The Bible can be understood in only two ways. The natural way, through the human mind alone, through the practice of Biblical interpretation. Or the supernatural way, from Jesus Christ who uses the Bible as a personal instrument for his teaching, through the Holy Spirit, through the human spirit, to the mind. And if that is then interpreted by the mind, it is changed from supernatural understanding into natural understanding.

The natural way has resulted in the denominationalism you see in Christianity. A denominationalism that is seen in its ultimate form today thanks to the Protestant idea that the Bible alone can be an authority in itself. The supernatural way produces those who are in Christ. They may not always understand the Bible the same, due to interpretations that they have received through the Christian denominations they are associated with. But those who are in Christ have one thing they agree on for sure, the supernatural is real and they have a real desire to understand it. Denominational thinking, that includes the practice of Biblical interpretation, hinders the ability to understand the supernatural today.

Atheists and a whole lot of Christians think the supernatural way is a lot of hooey. They just show their lack of experience of the supernatural. There’s only one real difference between the Atheist and this kind of Christian. The Atheist claims the supernatural doesn’t exist, because they have no personal experience of it. The Christian claims that it does, in spite of their lack of experience. I will continue to believe in the existence of the supernatural, that I think I have experienced, until it’s proven to me that it's not possible or is all in my mind.

A couple of my Atheist friends tried to come up with that proof, but failed. And they’re honest enough to admit that proving that the supernatural doesn't exist is as difficult as proving that it does. Do you think you have proof that the God I believe in doesn't exist? Do you think you have proof that the Bible is only a man-made collection of man-made writings? And because of that, the only way to understand it is through the practice of Biblical interpretation? I already realize that Christianity is nothing more than a man-made religion. If you have real proof that the Bible is just more of the same, I would sure appreciate it if you would share that with me.

FC

 

[smaller]

Ezekiel 28:15

King James Version (KJV)


15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


I was refering to perfect in his ways.


Above it is said in Ezekial 28:15, "till iniquity was found in thee".
Then in
Ezekiel 28:17

King James Version (KJV)


17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Then read this:
Job 41:15

King James Version (KJV)


15His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

And this:
Job 41:33-34

King James Version (KJV)



33Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. 34He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Now I can see from these descriptions that something happened to this covering Cherub and it is clear he did not fear even high things and was proud which means he did not esteem God as God. Satan said in his heart, "i shall ascend my throne above the stars of heaven even unto the throne of God".

In vanity he took himself too seriously not recognizing that for all his beauty, he was just a creature even as every creature below his place of prominence was. All his gifted abilities were God's making and not his own. And his children are the same so that the attributes of Satan can be found in mankind causing sin in the same way for the same reasons.

The reason I feel this is important, is because this same thing could happen to anyone with a false image of god. For we see that Satan thinks that God sits at the top telling everybody else what to do and he desires the same. But the Christ shows us that God is at the bottom holding everything up and is a servant to all. And so this Christ is the knowledge of God, the Spirit of Truth that Satan did not possess.
This is why darkness cannot comprehend the light.

I generally agree with your assessments. You have landed on solid dry ground. I enjoy your insights as they are very accurate workings of Truth in you.

Thanks for sharing.

s

 

[smaller]

Eventide

"What you do know about the bible is beyond reproof, correct.. ?
Good luck with that."


As near as I can make out, your question is something like,

What do you know about the Bible that is beyond reproof or is definitively correct?

Since that's a question only a non-believer would ask, I’m still in hope I've misunderstood the question. But by your addition of "Good luck with that", I have to wonder how you really understand the Bible. You have words, like mentioning John 6:63 and Heb 4:12, totally out of context I might add, but seem to not have the reality. You seem to be just a part of the religion.

Personally, I'm not a follower of the Christian religion any more. But I do still believe the Bible has its source in the God that the Bible describes. I still believe that the God it describes is living and the Son of God or Jesus Christ is living. And it may be just mysticism like the occult or Astrology to you, but I believe that they are involved in my life, not just in a religious way, but in a personal way. That is, I believe in what’s called a personal God. My brother, on the other hand does not. He’s a Deist. He rejected both Christianity as a man-made religion and the Bible as a collection of ancient human writings. He only considers the Bible to be human thinking regarding the supernatural, but to not have any more significance than that. But he does believe that a God created everything and then left it to run on its own. Like Thomas Jefferson, and a number of other founders of the American nation.

The Bible can be understood in only two ways. The natural way, through the human mind alone, through the practice of Biblical interpretation. Or the supernatural way, from Jesus Christ who uses the Bible as a personal instrument for his teaching, through the Holy Spirit, through the human spirit, to the mind. And if that is then interpreted by the mind, it is changed from supernatural understanding into natural understanding.

The natural way has resulted in the denominationalism you see in Christianity. A denominationalism that is seen in its ultimate form today thanks to the Protestant idea that the Bible alone can be an authority in itself. The supernatural way produces those who are in Christ. They may not always understand the Bible the same, due to interpretations that they have received through the Christian denominations they are associated with. But those who are in Christ have one thing they agree on for sure, the supernatural is real and they have a real desire to understand it. Denominational thinking, that includes the practice of Biblical interpretation, hinders the ability to understand the supernatural today.

Atheists and a whole lot of Christians think the supernatural way is a lot of hooey. They just show their lack of experience of the supernatural. There’s only one real difference between the Atheist and this kind of Christian. The Atheist claims the supernatural doesn’t exist, because they have no personal experience of it. The Christian claims that it does, in spite of their lack of experience. I will continue to believe in the existence of the supernatural, that I think I have experienced, until it’s proven to me that it's not possible or is all in my mind.

A couple of my Atheist friends tried to come up with that proof, but failed. And they’re honest enough to admit that proving that the supernatural doesn't exist is as difficult as proving that it does. Do you think you have proof that the God I believe in doesn't exist? Do you think you have proof that the Bible is only a man-made collection of man-made writings? And because of that, the only way to understand it is through the practice of Biblical interpretation? I already realize that Christianity is nothing more than a man-made religion. If you have real proof that the Bible is just more of the same, I would sure appreciate it if you would share that with me.

FC

A good and honest piece of writing there FC. I believe many can relate to the directions you have been taken to on many items and subjects therein.

s

 

[Eventide]

Eventide

"What you do know about the bible is beyond reproof, correct.. ?
Good luck with that."


As near as I can make out, your question is something like,

What do you know about the Bible that is beyond reproof or is definitively correct?

No No No..

Here's how I understand what you're saying FC.. feel free to correct this if it's wrong.

You believe that when you read the scriptures.. you're not actually interpreting them, and that your understanding of them comes only from Christ.. So therefore you believe that whenever you come to a conclusion on scripture, that it can't be wrong. Is that correct FC..?