Many use Acts 10, claiming Acts 10 is about food.
Acts 10 is about MEN, not food.
Remember pig was never considered food. It would never be referred to as food in the scripture.
It would be like you calling feces food.
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What Law Paul
- Thread starter Humblepie
- Start date
Many use Acts 10, claiming Acts 10 is about food.
Acts 10 is about MEN, not food.
Remember pig was never considered food. It would never be referred to as food in the scripture.
It would be like you calling feces food.
secretmessenger
Member
I believe the main argument is derived from 1 Timothy ch 4, I've not heard the vision you reference being used to say all meat is now available, I would hope most of the church would understand it is about men.
Edit for typo
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Is the law given to us by God a doctrine of devils?
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is ((((sanctified))))) by the word of God and prayer.
Is pig sanctified by God?
Sanctified; set apart as or declare holy; consecrate.
Only God can sanctify food.
He is not speaking about things not considered food. He is talking about food sacrificed to idols then sold in the market place.
Remember, pig isn't used in the context of food. Only animals sanctified by God for food is considered food in the scripture.
secretmessenger
Member
Why do you leave out verses 2 and 3 in this? I assume the first 4 is just a typo then you skip straight to 4.
So I 'd like to consider in context, who was Timothy? He was a gentile correct? Why would the apostle speaking to Timothy not have used a phrase more like 'every creature of God except for X' if he meant what you propose? I would think that speaking to a gentile, the apostle would know that gentiles consider pig also food and the idea of "every creature" would speak to Timothy as litterally every creature. What if a deciple went into a city which had none of the animals described of as clean, would they be expected to sit at meat with someone and refuse the food sat before them? This doesn't seem to be the message as far as I can tell, but rather that one should not refuse anything sat before them in such a case.
I'd like to know your view on Romans 14 as well. It seems to me when speaking to gentile believers, or rather believers grafted in from the gentiles that the apostle doesn't make it a point to say 'oh, this is only for the specified food in the old covenant.' Which, leads me to believe more along the lines of all things are permissable but not all things are profitable.
Is Paul a heretic for teaching that circumcision is of no value ?
Is Paul a heretic for teaching that all food can be eaten ?
You are straddling the proverbial fence.
You say we aren't saved by the Law, but then say none of the Law shall pass until all be fulfilled.
None of the Law shall pass away, but men aren't under the Law anymore...so who cares about the Law ?
Jews and Judaizers care about the Law.
For the converted, the Law, (9 of the 10 commandments), is written in our hearts.
Do you think it is the will of the Father for us NT believers to get circumcised, and avoid pork ?
Only 9 commandments?
So love God and love others isn't in the first 9 commandments.
Jesus tells us they are the greatest commandments though.
Lev 19:18
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but ((((love your neighbor as yourself)))). I am the Lord.
Deut 6:5
5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
I'm not straddling anything.
I'm saying that just because we have grace doesn't mean that his commandments, (that he says so many times in the OT was eternal) are worthless like you claim.
You can't deny that Paul even defended his position on the law.
Acts 25:8
8 Then Paul made his defense: “I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.”
Acts 21:20-24
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all (((zealous of the law)))
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, (((are nothing;))) but that thou thyself also (((walkest orderly))), and ((((keepest the law))))
You must be misunderstanding Paul, or the Bible is lying.
I know the WHOLE Bible is true. When God says forever, he means forever.
When Paul claims he followed the Mosaic law and did not teach against the law, I believe him.
Just because the law doesn't justify us doesn't mean it's worthless.
It points directly to the messiah. It shows us why we need a messiah.
And God, you forgot about God caring about his perfect, righteous, true law. The law that sets us apart from the unsaved.
Yes, they are.
The greatest is to love God with all your heart, strength, mind, and soul.
Loving neighbors is second.
You stress Law keeping and then fall away from that stance.
What am I to think ?
9 of the original 10 are imperatives.
Circumcision, dietary rules, and feast keeping, etc., aren't.
His position on the Law ?
His position was that he was dead to it.
In Jerusalem he used his ability to blend in to his advantage.
Paul never taught post 9 of 10 Law keeping to Christians.
He fought against it.
Especially circumcision and dietary rules.
Those Jews could have been as free of the Law as Paul and we are.
Paul kept all of the law for the Jews, but taught against the Law for Gentiles.
He did what it took to blend in wherever he was at.
Does it concern you then, that he did teach against circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, and feast keeping ?
Now that the Messiah has come the presages are done with.
Something new sets real believers apart from the unbelievers now.
Freedom from sin.
We can now walk in the Spirit now, instead of in the "flesh".
The Law keepers couldn't.
Their Law couldn't keep them from breaking their Law.
Rebirth from God's seed can.
I do not stress Law keeping as a means to salvation.
It's out of obedience to God. It is his Eternal Law as stated in the OT.
Not in my Bible.
Exodus 20
Commandment 1
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Commandment 2
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Commandment 3
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Commandment 4
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Commandment 5
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
Commandment 6
13 Thou shalt not kill
Commandment 7
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery
Commandment 8
15 Thou shalt not steal
Commandment 9
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Commandment 10
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
First 10 in Exodus 20.
Then in Leviticus,this commandment which isn't in the first 10.
Lev 19:18
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but ((((love your neighbor as yourself)))). I am the Lord.
Then this in Deuteronomy
Deuteronomy 6:5
5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
The TWO GREATEST COMMANDMENTS Jesus told us to follow aren't even in the first ten commandments, but the two encapsulate all the law. Loving God and Others.
Jn 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Gen 7:2
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
You mean to tell me Noah heard Moses give this commandment about clean and unclean animals? If not, this law must have already been in place by God before any covenants or promises made after Noah's life.
Sounds like God's law was here before the Mosaic law. The Sabbath was established in the beginning.
He didn't teach against the law, that's how you interpret it.
That's hypocrisy. The Paul I know didn't engage in double talk.
Maybe it would help if you knew Paul. (Saul)
Saul.
He was a Pharisee, he was well educated in the written law, the oral law, and all the customs. He was zealous for the law.
Phil 3
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Deut 13 is a good read to understand why Saul persecuted Christians.
Deut 13 is the reason he approved of Stephen's stoning.
Acts 7:59-60
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 8:1
8 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
My question to you, is what were the charges brought against Stephen
that requires death by stoning, that Saul agreed with?
When you understand and believe these important set of events and understand that Saul loved the law, he said he was touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless, it will help you understand Saul and later, Paul.
They were free. Free from the wages of sin. Free from the law of sin, free from the law of sin and death. Bound to the law of God out of obedience after their conversion.
Paul proved to those that were zealous for the law that Christ is the messiah through the OT scripture showing them that christ didn't come to do what they claimed in Acts 6:13,14. Jesus and the apostles never taught what they were FALSELY accused of.
You accuse Paul of the same things the jews falsely accused him of.
Test it to scripture.
That chapter is a study in itself.
It's very difficult to condense it down into a couple of paragraphs.
Good, as that would be pointless.
Agreed.
Please differentiate between the original 10 commandments and all the other laws when you write about the Law.
Doing those is now possible for the reborn.
The two commandments Jesus gave are all that is required, and they are a condensation of the ten given to Moses.
Show me where the proof of your assumption is written.
Cite the chapter and verse where they are given to man by God.
Which Law ?
Paul didn't teach against the original 10, but he sure did teach against circumcision and dietary rules, and sabbath keeping, and feast keeping.
I agree, he didn't.
Paul, and the rest of the apostles, taught that Gentiles must avoid a handful of things, but not all the stuff the Jews held dear. (Acts 15)
He considered himself the best of the best...while he had Christians murdered for adhering to Jesus Christ.
Jesus made him see the failure of such a POV on the road to Damascus.
Such a waste of time and life...eh ?
If the Jewish laws are your ultimate god, you have your answer.
The righteousness of the Law was unachievable.
I am amazed that you would blithely write they were free, and bound, in the next sentence.
Nobody is saved by keeping the Mosaic Law's hundreds of additions to the 10 commandments.
Accused by who ?
Law keepers !
I recognize that both Paul and I are dead to the Law.
It is written..."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (Rom 7:4)
Law keepers are still married to the Law.
Which are you married to ?
Not what my Bible says. I even provided scripture that says he followed the law.
Dead to the Law of sin and death, not to God's law.
You didn't answer the question.
It is written..."Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Gal 5:40
As long as you keep making that distinction between the law of sin and God's Law, I can agree.
God's Law is ten commandments, none of which are still in effect.
God's Law can be condensed into two laws...love Him and love our neighbors.
My answer is...who cares ?
The Law's reasons for Stephen's death were unjust.
And I am glad they have been done away with.
My question to you, is what were the charges brought against Stephen
that requires death by stoning, that Saul agreed with?
The charge:
This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and ((against the law.)) 14 For we have heard him say that this ((Jesus)) of Nazareth will ((destroy)) this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”
This is why they stoned Stephen. They claimed he and Jesus broke the law in Deuteronomy 13.
But the clincher in Acts 6:13 is this.
13 They produced (((false witnesses))) who testified,
The witnesses lied about what Jesus and Stephen taught, and you accuse them of the same thing.
If Jesus taught that he eliminated or would eliminate the law of moses, then Jesus broke the law as it is written in Deut 13. And that would render our Savior as imperfect at the time of his crusifiction.
Acts 6:12-14
12 So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. 13 They produced ((false witnesses))), who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14 For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”
This combined with all the scripture that claims they followed the law, and all the scripture that says the law is eternal should settle it, but the teachings of men and doctrine of devils are hard for the law deniers (the lawless) to overcome.
You contradict scripture.
Psalms 19:7-9
7-8 God’s laws are perfect. They protect us, make us wise, and give us joy and light. 9 God’s laws are pure, eternal, just.
1 Timothy 1:8-10
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
In Stephen's case it was not used lawfully because of the lie. He was FALSELY put to death for a crime he didn't commit. You accuse him as well.
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; ( meaning they tell lies so often that their conscience doesn't even bother them. )
The scripture never called the law a lie, it actually says it is truth.
Psalms 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of ((them)) which believe and know the ((truth.))
Who is the "them" he is writing about?
The Jews that believe and know the truth of the law.
food that God sanctified as clean can't be made unclean by a doctrine of devils.
Gods law is not a doctrine of devils.
Clean meat offered to pagan God's is still clean, but the doctrine of men claimed it was defiled and those that know the truth were forbidden to eat of it due to the doctrine of men.
In verse 2 the doctrine of men is referred to as "lies in hypocrisy"
In verse 1 he said these teachings or doctrines are "seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"
The Law of Moses (Gods Law) is not a doctrine of devils.
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Ok. So we don't just talk around each other, let's look at the different laws being discussed in the New Testament.
The law of Moses, which was added...
The Torah, the first five books of the Bible
The law of sin and death - the law of God that Adam violated 2000 years before Moses was born.
The law of faith
The law of Christ
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ
Lets make sure we know which one of these laws we are discussing so we are discussing the same law or principle.
The way to do this is to use scripture and context to make our point.
Example:
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19
Here we see the "law" being mentioned was a reference to the law of Moses, being added to the Abrahamic Covenant, till the Seed, The Messiah should come.
By saying "until" the Holy Spirit is indicating the law was always meant to be temporary.
Now for some context -
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Galatians 3:13-23
- But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
JLB
If you feel that Judaizing will be profitable for you, keep at it.
I am dead to the Law, by the Law...just like Paul wrote in Rom 7.
I guess there is no reason for you to post in this thread again.
My belief is a little different then yours.
I believe the whole Bible is true without contradiction. That includes when the OT says forever, it means forever. When it calls the law good, righteous, just, not too difficult, a light to our path, perfect.
I believe if you don't care to know the OT, you couldn't fully understand what is taught in the NT.
I believe if you interpret scripture in the NT that contradicts the OT, your interpretation is incorrect.
Contradictions breed confusion, and Satan is the author of confusion.
Call me a judaizing believer, I call myself a Christian that will put the doctrine of men to the test.