Some Things.. Hard To Be Understood..

[smaller]

I'd like to share a couple of difficult matters from Paul, and show these to be working facts. Some will not perceive it, though we all do show it openly here or at any christian posting boards. These are facts because we all 'reflect' differently to a very certain extent by reading The Words of the text.

The texts as follows:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Now, lets take a look at the other side of the ledgers:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If we follow the steps of Jesus Christ in His Ministry we see the 'active Sword' in Living Flesh, Gods Living Word IN LIVE ACTION.

What any of us see therein are our 'individual' subjective reflections. There is zero reason to believe that any of us will reflect 'internally' identically the same. It is simply not possible. I'd like to look at the 'why.' I'll use a couple of basic examples:

When Jesus encountered the man of the Gaderenes in whom dwelt LEGION, what did The Living Word find?

Jesus found the man of the Gaderenes and LEGION therein.

There were then TWO different principalities reflected. The man, the slave of LEGION and LEGION.

If you read the two scriptures above you will understand how Word works in all of us. The Word finds MAN and the WORD finds the ENEMIES. The enemies are found 'internally.' Spiritually. And Living Word also shows the enemies 'within' MAN.

There is a unique perspective given to us in the matter of the man of the Gaderenes by the writers of the Gospels. Allow me to share what I see. If anyone reflects differently, they are certainly welcome to their own subjective reflections. I believe my reflection on this matter will prove interesting to you and consider the insight to be something granted to me 'within' by The Words reflecting in and upon me personally. So I really don't care what others may see or say.

Matthew describes this same event differently. Matthew describes that the encounter was with TWO MEN of the GERGESENES.

Gergesenes means 'dweller on clayey soil.' In my own studies I view these matters allegorically, as I believe spiritual understandings require that direction. So, we know Adam was formed of dust...add a little moisture and you have CLAY. There in that CLAY, that CLAYEY SOIL was as Matthew described TWO MEN.

These 'two men' are seen easily. There was the MAN and there was LEGION, spiritually speaking, a consortium of anti-Christ spirits within that CLAY.

Now we move to the writings of Luke and Mark, and we find a different but intentional misdirection of facts. The misdirection is perfectly intentional. They describe this encounter as the MAN OF THE GADARENES.

So, what happened in this encounter? The Word showed up, the LIVING ACTIVE insight that God has reflects LEGION in that man. Jesus found then TWO MEN. Legion and the SLAVE of LEGION.

Jesus cast out Legion.

The meaning of Gadarenes you ask? Why, quite simple:

"REWARD AT THE END."

Do you see?

Now, go read the above two scriptures again, and you will see 'how' Living Word works in each of us. The enemies are not found in the other guy, the other people who don't agree with us.

The enemies we all carry are 'internal.' And both of these 'men' will be reflected by Living Word shined upon ALL.

What then do we find? Word 'will' find TWO MEN.

One man is the man of sin to whom every sin is connected. That would be the devil. You are welcome to count 'the' devil or you may account any number of 'his family.' In the above case, Legion, but there are 'many.' A 'whole world' of them in fact. These are found and exposed by Living Word.

And the Word also finds YOU, thee man, individual, child of God. Word cuts right down the middle in these matters.

Many of you have read that where two or more are gathered in 'My Name' there I am 'in the midst of them' and thought-reflected that means you and another believer. It does not. It means you and the other man, the man of sin that Jesus came to DIVIDE you from.

Hope you enjoyed a moment of sunshine herein!

I also know that 'others' will be reflected and shown by reading this. That is usually a sign that God Himself sends to confirm the message.

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[Eventide]

smaller.. more excellent commentary !

I think that the Gaderene story is more aligned to a man before conversion.. before coming to Christ.. knowing that Jesus cast out the devils in the man.. so I'm not sure if I would apply that to a born again Christian.. although it certainly could be I suppose.

The reason I say that is because Paul speaks of the Christian in the sense of the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN, which I have often associated with the Adamic nature (flesh) as compared to Christ in us (Spirit).. we know that the old man is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and that the new man is created (in us) in righteousness and true holiness.

So within the context of a person without Christ in them.. certainly I can see the Gadarene speaking for all in Adam.. although I'm not so sure about a person in Christ..

It also reminds me of where Jesus speaks of the house being swept and made clean.. and then more spirits coming in and making that man worse off than before etc.. how do you think that might be relative.

Just sharing some thoughts.. absolutely fascinating stuff imo ! Thanks again for sharing.

 

[smaller]

smaller.. more excellent commentary !

I think that the Gaderene story is more aligned to a man before conversion.. before coming to Christ.. knowing that Jesus cast out the devils in the man.. so I'm not sure if I would apply that to a born again Christian.. although it certainly could be I suppose.

The reason I say that is because Paul speaks of the Christian in the sense of the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN, which I have often associated with the Adamic nature (flesh) as compared to Christ in us (Spirit).. we know that the old man is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and that the new man is created (in us) in righteousness and true holiness.

So within the context of a person without Christ in them.. certainly I can see the Gadarene speaking for all in Adam.. although I'm not so sure about a person in Christ..

It also reminds me of where Jesus speaks of the house being swept and made clean.. and then more spirits coming in and making that man worse off than before etc.. how do you think that might be relative.

Just sharing some thoughts.. absolutely fascinating stuff imo ! Thanks again for sharing.

It is 'natural' for us to reflect differently on these matters.

The old/carnal/Adamic man is blinded by the god of this world. I have no use seeing that man apart from his blinder, which same I continue to fight against.

Should God elect to draw back the efforts of that working which He obviously allows, then Thanks be to God in Christ. If not, that's Gods business too.

1 Corinthians 5:13
But them that are without God judgeth. -

enjoy!

s

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

I had to learn the doctrine that the only way to understand the Bible properly is to interpret it properly. I learned it through the first Christian Church I attended. I also learned from this same Church that I should read the Bible for myself. I believed what I was taught. Too literally it would seem. I read and interpreted the Bible according to the principles of interpretation given me by this first Church. I came up with some interpretations that were different from the acceptable doctrine of this Church. What I got for my effort was kicked out. What I did NOT learn from this Church was that I was expected to come up with the same doctrines they did. I also did NOT learn from this Church the wisdom of keeping my mouth shut if I didn’t.

That first Church was a Protestant Church that emphasized the authority of the Bible alone. The claim of the Bible alone as the only authority is not actually the practice of the Protestant Churches. The claim is implemented through the practice of Biblical interpretation. And it is the interpretation of the Bible that has the real authority. It is the interpretation of the denomination, of the Church, that has the real authority.

If I had started out in the RCC that emphasizes the authority of the Church alone, I wouldn’t be where I am now. I would still be a member of the RCC interpreting the Bible according to the authority of the RCC. The Protestant denominations practice what the RCC acknowledges. The practice of Biblical interpretation requires the authority of a Biblical interpreter.

By what authority, Eventide, do you interpret the Bible? By the authority of a Christian denomination, or by your own authority? That is a crucial question you must answer as one who believes in the practice of Biblical interpretation. And you must consider the history of Biblical interpretation from the second century to today. You have to ask yourself, are my interpretations the same as the interpreters of the second century? If not, why not? Do you think your interpretations are better than those who were more closely associated with the writers of the NT than you are? This forum claims to follow the Historic Christian Faith. Is that a true claim in your opinion? Or could it be that the RCC or the Orthodox Church follow it better having a Tradition rooted in the interpretations of those early centuries?

After leaving that first Church, I studied Christian history. Not strictly according to book learning. I also became involved with several Christian denominations. I learned much about how to interpret the Bible from them all. Since they had different methods of interpretation, it seemed necessary to learn NT Greek to aid in my interpretations. That all led me to my present position of realizing that Christianity is a man-made religion. Proven to be so especially by its denominationalism. Which is the opposite of both the desire of Christ and the teaching of Paul. Christian is a misnomer when applied to Christianity as a religion. A Christian is a follower of Christ. The denominationalism of Christianity shows that so-called Christianity does not follow Christ. It follows itself. And since Christianity follows the principle of understanding the Bible through Biblical interpretation, it doesn’t follow the Bible either. As clearly seen through the doctrinal distinctions of the denominations of Christianity

Most people, Christian and non-Christian, equate the Bible with Christianity as if one thing. To reject one is to reject the other. I would have saved myself a lot of frustration if I had went by that common wisdom. But the Bible and Christianity were two separate things to me. I started out with the Bible and added Christianity to it. When I realized the true nature of Christianity, I was still left with the Bible.

Like anyone with a good Protestant background, my first thought was to start another community that believed according to my interpretations. But I realized after being involved with three Reversionist denominations, that whatever I started would just become another denomination of Christianity. Not long after I realized the guiding principle of Christianity, a principle in open evidence since at least the fourth century, I rejected Christianity as being anything more than a man-made religion. That principle is the principle of Biblical interpretation. My opposition to that principle began at that point.

“You believe that when you read the scriptures.. you're not actually interpreting them, and that your understanding of them comes only from Christ.. So therefore you believe that whenever you come to a conclusion on scripture, that it can't be wrong. Is that correct FC..?â€

No. That is not correct. You are interpreting what I have said. And if that’s an example of how you have interpreted the Bible, you no doubt have gotten that wrong as well.

In your attempt to simplify you miss the point entirely. I don’t come to conclusions regarding Scripture, at least not purposefully. If I did, I would still be interpreting it.

Two things are necessary to understand the Bible. An open mind and walking by the Spirit. I am as human as the next man. I was a part of Christianity for some years. Old habits are hard to break. So sometimes my mind is not as open as it should be. Sometimes I’m not walking by the Spirit. That doesn’t necessarily mean I am walking by the flesh entirely. Sometimes I walk by my own soul, by my own mind. When I do, I revert to understanding the Bible through interpretation. Or I understand what Jesus is trying to teach me through interpretation. Either way results in the same thing. A misunderstanding or even a complete figment of my own imagination. I have only one advantage. I know the difference between an interpretation and the teaching of Christ. And as soon as I realize that I have interpreted something, I let it go, and let Jesus teach me what he intended to give me in the first place.

Jesus is at the right hand of God. He sent the Spirit to us as another comforter. What the Spirit is saying is what Jesus teaches. What the Spirit says is the same as what Jesus says. Jesus walks among us and is Lord through the Spirit. (John 16; Rev 1-3)

One must never impose one’s own ideas on what Jesus is teaching. That is the nature of an interpretation. It is one’s own idea. Try to understand that an interpretation is an opinion. That’s all it is. Christianity is full of opinions. The opinions are the source of distinction. Each denomination has it’s own opinion that is the ground for its distinction, for its reason for individual existence.

There is no such thing as being one’s own denomination. A denomination is a community. When one has a personal interpretation it’s just a personal opinion. If you wish to believe that what is true to me is just a personal opinion because it disagrees with your interpretation, that is of course your privilege. Not much I can do about it from this side of the internet. And even if we were face to face, the way I deal with that idea any more is to just walk away. It’s futile trying to talk about anything, secular or otherwise, with a closed mind.

Consider that all who are in Christ are intended to grow. Peter is quite clear on that point. (2 Pet 3:15-18) Isn’t that what you started this thread with? Yet you missed the point of these verses entirely. The point isn’t in what Peter said about Paul saying things hard to be understood. According to the context it’s a contrast. Instead of growing in the knowledge of the natural interpretations of Lawless men, grow in the grace of God and in the knowledge of the teachings of Christ. If you want to know Jesus personally, you will have to listen to his teachings. There is no difference between the person and the teachings. In that sense, Jesus is more human than we are, who tend to differentiate between who we are and what we say.

I’ve simply returned to the initial way I understood the Bible, apart from any interpretation. That’s all. The way through which I was converted to Jesus Christ in the first place. Before I ever attended that first Church that taught me to understand the Bible through interpretation.

Psalms 119:
99 I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on your statutes.
100 I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts. (NIV)

That’s in relation to the Law. How much more if we listen to, and understand without interpretation, the teachings of Jesus.

Do you think I mistakenly converted because what I thought was a true understanding of what the Bible said was actually a personal interpretation of Scripture? Prove to me that is so and I’ll gladly revert to where I was before I converted. Why should I continue to believe an interpretation? An interpretation is just an opinion. And opinions are nothing to base one’s life on, let alone eternal life. It would be better to just live life as it comes and do what comes naturally. If there is a Creator, then isn’t that what he created us for? Or is the uninterpreted Bible right after all? That if we live our life naturally, we’ll only end up dying in our sins. And eternal life will not be given to us. If the idea that Jesus Christ is the way to eternal life is just an interpretation, an opinion of long dead men, an opinion out of our own interpretations, why continue to believe it as if it were objective truth?

Can you remember a time long ago when you didn’t interpret the Bible, but just read it and believed what it said? Read it and listened to the Spirit speaking within you through your own human spirit? If yes, why have you changed? If no, why do you feel compelled to follow a religion of your own choosing or of your own making?

FC

 

[Free]

Can you remember a time long ago when you didn’t interpret the Bible, but just read it and believed what it said? Read it and listened to the Spirit speaking within you through your own human spirit? If yes, why have you changed? If no, why do you feel compelled to follow a religion of your own choosing or of your own making?

Is that not precisely following a religion of your own making? I know you disagree, but when you read it, you are interpreting it. There is no way around it. Besides, this is no way to guarantee you are understanding the Bible correctly and is just as likely, if not more, to lead you astray, if that is all one does in trying to understand Scripture.

Of course, we are to study the Bible on our own, with much prayer. But we simply cannot ignore 2000 years of Christian scholars and teachers and the opinions of those around us who are also praying and studying, assuming of course that we are in fellowship in the first place.

No man is an island.

 

[Gazelle]

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter (the Apostle to the Circumcision, or Jews) writes in his 2nd Epistle concerning some of Paul's (the Apostle to the Gentiles) writings.. and mentions that some things are hard to be understood..

What are some of the things which you think that Peter is referring to..?

The immediate context is His coming, and His longsuffering.. as well as the Day of the Lord and the judgment to come..

I often think that this is referring to the mystery pertaining to Israel, seeing that Peter is the Apostle to the Jews.. although Peter also writes of making our calling and election sure in the first chapter of this epistle.. so it could be these things as well perhaps..

There's also a serious consequence of mis-applying Paul's words, and that some do this to their own destruction.. serious indeed..

So what are your thoughts on some things hard to be understood ?

One of the main things that was causing an uproar, especially in Jerusalem, is that they misunderstood and thought that Paul was preaching that they (the Jews) no longer had to keep the law, that the law had been done away with.

"…we are not under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14) or …no man shall be justified by the works of the law…" (Galatians 2:16) KJV

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight" (Romans 3:20 (NASV).

The law could not be satisfied without the shedding of blood, which is the meaning behind Paul’s words in Romans 8:3, "For what the law could not do... Yahweh did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin. He condemned sin in the flesh..." (NASV).

 

[Eventide]

One of the main things that was causing an uproar, especially in Jerusalem, is that they misunderstood and thought that Paul was preaching that they (the Jews) no longer had to keep the law, that the law had been done away with.

"…we are not under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14) or …no man shall be justified by the works of the law…" (Galatians 2:16) KJV

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight" (Romans 3:20 (NASV).

The law could not be satisfied without the shedding of blood, which is the meaning behind Paul’s words in Romans 8:3, "For what the law could not do... Yahweh did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin. He condemned sin in the flesh..." (NASV).

You're the 2nd person already who has tied this to law versus grace. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Former Christian]

Free

“when you read it, you are interpreting it. There is no way around it.â€

You’re saying I became a believer under false pretenses. That I actually became a believer in my own interpretation of the Bible. In my own interpretation of God and Jesus Christ. That I became a believer in a fabrication of my own mind. You leave a very open question. An interpretation is just the opinion of the interpreter. Why should I believe in a Bible that is at most just a personal opinion to anyone who reads it?

You offer a statement. What is the proof of your statement?

FC

 

[Free]

Free

“when you read it, you are interpreting it. There is no way around it.â€

You’re saying I became a believer under false pretenses. That I actually became a believer in my own interpretation of the Bible. In my own interpretation of God and Jesus Christ. That I became a believer in a fabrication of my own mind.

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that getting a proper understanding of Scripture is far more difficult than you make it out to be. Certainly there are basic things in Scripture that even a child can understand, more than enough for salvation. But growing in our walk requires not only prayer but serious study, taking into account as many opinions on a passage as possible.

You leave a very open question. An interpretation is just the opinion of the interpreter. Why should I believe in a Bible that is at most just a personal opinion to anyone who reads it?

You offer a statement. What is the proof of your statement?

FC

The proof? Look at these forums. I have mentioned to you before that everyone who comes in here saying to "Just read the Bible and believe it" not only differs in areas of doctrine from orthodox Christian belief and from other denominations or denominations period, but from each other as well. This is why such statements lead to just as much difference in opinion as any other method, and could lead one into serious error.

There is no such thing as an unbiased interpretation of Scripture. Everyone interprets what they read through their own coloured glasses--life experiences, experiences of others they've been told or heard, education or lack thereof, other things they've read, etc. All such things come into bear when reading Scripture. When you read a given word, certain meanings can come immediately to mind based on preconceived ideas or previous understanding of the word. For example, someone might have great difficulty with God being referred to as Father since their own father abused them.

I thought I read that you know Greek and can translate from manuscripts, correct? You of all people should know the difficulty on that end of translating and that it can often come down to the opinion of the translators. How is it any different on this end just because it is in English? Surely there are even variances from language to language as well.

The Bible is most certainly the revealed and inspired Word of God, so it isn't the Bible that is personal opinion, it's our understanding of it (a little circular but that's the way it is, for now ;) ). And of course there are a few different levels of understanding, so different interpretations for a given passage can all be correct. In fact, this is often where disagreements get stuck. There are many ways of sifting through this stuff.

None of this is to say that we cannot come to a knowledge of the truth, just that it can be much more difficult than many make it seem.

 

[childeye]

I'd like to share a couple of difficult matters from Paul, and show these to be working facts. Some will not perceive it, though we all do show it openly here or at any christian posting boards. These are facts because we all 'reflect' differently to a very certain extent by reading The Words of the text.

The texts as follows:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Now, lets take a look at the other side of the ledgers:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If we follow the steps of Jesus Christ in His Ministry we see the 'active Sword' in Living Flesh, Gods Living Word IN LIVE ACTION.

What any of us see therein are our 'individual' subjective reflections. There is zero reason to believe that any of us will reflect 'internally' identically the same. It is simply not possible. I'd like to look at the 'why.' I'll use a couple of basic examples:

When Jesus encountered the man of the Gaderenes in whom dwelt LEGION, what did The Living Word find?

Jesus found the man of the Gaderenes and LEGION therein.

There were then TWO different principalities reflected. The man, the slave of LEGION and LEGION.

If you read the two scriptures above you will understand how Word works in all of us. The Word finds MAN and the WORD finds the ENEMIES. The enemies are found 'internally.' Spiritually. And Living Word also shows the enemies 'within' MAN.

There is a unique perspective given to us in the matter of the man of the Gaderenes by the writers of the Gospels. Allow me to share what I see. If anyone reflects differently, they are certainly welcome to their own subjective reflections. I believe my reflection on this matter will prove interesting to you and consider the insight to be something granted to me 'within' by The Words reflecting in and upon me personally. So I really don't care what others may see or say.

Matthew describes this same event differently. Matthew describes that the encounter was with TWO MEN of the GERGESENES.

Gergesenes means 'dweller on clayey soil.' In my own studies I view these matters allegorically, as I believe spiritual understandings require that direction. So, we know Adam was formed of dust...add a little moisture and you have CLAY. There in that CLAY, that CLAYEY SOIL was as Matthew described TWO MEN.

These 'two men' are seen easily. There was the MAN and there was LEGION, spiritually speaking, a consortium of anti-Christ spirits within that CLAY.

Now we move to the writings of Luke and Mark, and we find a different but intentional misdirection of facts. The misdirection is perfectly intentional. They describe this encounter as the MAN OF THE GADARENES.

So, what happened in this encounter? The Word showed up, the LIVING ACTIVE insight that God has reflects LEGION in that man. Jesus found then TWO MEN. Legion and the SLAVE of LEGION.

Jesus cast out Legion.

The meaning of Gadarenes you ask? Why, quite simple:

"REWARD AT THE END."

Do you see?

Now, go read the above two scriptures again, and you will see 'how' Living Word works in each of us. The enemies are not found in the other guy, the other people who don't agree with us.

The enemies we all carry are 'internal.' And both of these 'men' will be reflected by Living Word shined upon ALL.

What then do we find? Word 'will' find TWO MEN.

One man is the man of sin to whom every sin is connected. That would be the devil. You are welcome to count 'the' devil or you may account any number of 'his family.' In the above case, Legion, but there are 'many.' A 'whole world' of them in fact. These are found and exposed by Living Word.

And the Word also finds YOU, thee man, individual, child of God. Word cuts right down the middle in these matters.

Many of you have read that where two or more are gathered in 'My Name' there I am 'in the midst of them' and thought-reflected that means you and another believer. It does not. It means you and the other man, the man of sin that Jesus came to DIVIDE you from.

Hope you enjoyed a moment of sunshine herein!

I also know that 'others' will be reflected and shown by reading this. That is usually a sign that God Himself sends to confirm the message.

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Regarding different reflections: There are many directions away from God Who is Truth, hence many lies or legions can live in one man yet there is only one Truth that can live in all men. Since we have all ventured away from God in different directions, so also do we come back seeing the same Truth from differing perspectives.

 

[Eventide]

Is that not precisely following a religion of your own making? I know you disagree, but when you read it, you are interpreting it. There is no way around it. Besides, this is no way to guarantee you are understanding the Bible correctly and is just as likely, if not more, to lead you astray, if that is all one does in trying to understand Scripture.

Of course, we are to study the Bible on our own, with much prayer. But we simply cannot ignore 2000 years of Christian scholars and teachers and the opinions of those around us who are also praying and studying, assuming of course that we are in fellowship in the first place.

No man is an island.

AMEN Free.. as usual.. some just want to think that they're above it all.. or special with respect to everyone else.

 

[smaller]

Regarding different reflections: There are many directions away from God Who is Truth, hence many lies or legions can live in one man yet there is only one Truth that can live in all men. Since we have all ventured away from God in different directions, so also do we come back seeing the same Truth from differing perspectives.

Truth reflects both good and bad in all of us.

That is precisely why we all have different reflections, while we await our Perfect Reflector, Jesus Christ.

I have zero expectations of identical reflections from anyone. No 2 hearts reflect the same types of 'bad.'

The best we reflect is partially and partiality.

And few care to reflect the fact that 'bad' is reflected from themselves. And even fewer care to link that 'bad' to the devil(s) even though the tempter is engaged within their minds and hearts.

In the light of facts it doesn't take long to digress. And if one points to the obvious, they are usually quickly ushered into forced silence, barring, or the gnashing of teeth and throwing of false word stones from that which is aroused within them on the bad side of the ledgers.

enjoy!

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[Free]

AMEN Free.. as usual.. some just want to think that they're above it all.. or special with respect to everyone else.

I don't know if that is what they actually think or it just comes across that way. My only point is that they are shooting their own argument in the foot, so to speak.

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

“AMEN Free.. as usual.. some just want to think that they're above it all.. or special with respect to everyone else.â€

Free

“I don't know if that is what they actually think or it just comes across that way. My only point is that they are shooting their own argument in the foot, so to speak.â€


As an opposer of the practice of Biblical interpretation, it’s the Bible interpreter that comes across as the one who thinks he’s special, in his own ability to interpret the Bible. How much better than everyone else can one get?

By definition the word interpret just refers to an action of the mind alone. I oppose the action when it comes to the Bible. The Bible to me isn’t like all the books that only have their source in men. The interpretation of the Bible is a practical denial of the supernatural. Of the Bible as a book that has a supernatural source. As a way to understand the Bible. It’s a denial of the authority, even of the presence, of the only person authorized as the head and Lord of the Body of Christ to interpret the Bible, Jesus Christ. In their practice of Biblical interpretation, Bible interpreters become Lords in their own right.

Just seems like common sense to me that if the Bible is really a book with a supernatural source, it would take a supernatural source to interpret it, or it would be written in such a way that anyone could read it and understand it. Either way, to interpret the Bible would be unwarranted. An interpretation would be tantamount to adding to the Bible, or replacing the real thoughts of the Bible with the thoughts of the interpreter.

That may seem like arrogant foolishness to you, but it makes perfect sense to me. Especially having once been a practitioner of the practice of Biblical interpretation. I had to be taught what apparently you believe as a matter of fact. It certainly wasn’t my thinking when I converted to Christ. If I started out believing that whatever I was reading in the Bible was just a personal interpretation, I would have never been converted. As it was, I questioned the practice from when I first learned it. Didn’t seem very representative of the supernatural to me. Now I know it hasn’t one thing to do with the supernatural. Only with man’s desire to know on his own.

The practice of Biblical interpretation requires an authoritative Bible interpreter in order to avoid anarchy in interpretations. There’s only one denomination that actually acknowledges such an interpreter. Protestants can’t acknowledge an authoritative interpreter without nullifying their doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Though I have run across some who try to. One such claimed that one is to stay where God puts him to begin with as the place of authority of Biblical interpretations. Of course to that interpreter all the other denominations were composed of false Christians. Denominational thinking at its best. The Bible itself can’t be the authorized interpreter since it’s the object of interpretation. The Eastern Orthodox believe their Tradition is the authorized interpreter. Not realizing that a Tradition is also an object of interpretation. I recognize the legitimacy of Bible interpretation and of a an authoritative Bible interpreter. But not for anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

The practice of Biblical interpretation by the “anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ†is the source of the esoteric doctrines of each Christian denomination. A part of the denominational thinking of Christianity. And in my opinion, the Catholic Church is the quintessential practitioner of Biblical interpretation. Any self-proclaimed practitioner of the art could learn a lot from them. But the art is a part of what makes Christianity a man-made religion.

If I thought the Bible was just another collection of religious writings of men, I would then agree with you. That the Bible can only be compiled, translated, and understood through the practice of interpretation. But by select authoritative interpreters. Just like the Catholic Church has claimed against the Protestants for centuries. Of Course, I would also be an Atheist.

Fortunately, in my opinion, you have yet to give a cogent reason to believe in the validity of Biblical interpretation, by anyone other than Jesus Christ. You’ve only made the statement that everyone who reads the Bible also interprets the Bible. It’s a blanket statement that means nothing. It not only would have to apply to all people, it would have to apply to the whole Bible, ergo my question to you as to whether I was converted under false pretenses. You said some parts of the Bible can be understood by a child. An evasive answer at best.

I have every reason to believe in the supernatural nature of understanding the Bible. It has been my experience from the beginning. If you want to believe that I interpret the bible, then to you it’s part of my interpretive understanding of the Bible. You’re going to have to be very persuasive in your arguments in favor of the practice of Biblical interpretation in order to convince me that it’s a legitimate practice for anyone other than Jesus Christ.

I can agree that anyone who reads the Bible with their mind alone apart from any connection to the supernatural will automatically interpret the Bible, as if it’s a non-supernatural book, as if it’s a collection of writings by men, according to their own past experiences. It’s a common practice in religion courses in educational institutions all over the world. They haven’t the open mindedness required to understand the Bible in any other way. So they understand the Bible as if it were equal to the writings of all the other religions of the world. But don’t you think that we, the ones who consider ourselves to be in Christ, don’t you think we’re supposed to be more than that?

FC

 

[Webb]

FC
Would you kindly explain how the "supernatural source" explaines to anyone the "supernatural source'' ?

 

[Former Christian]

Webb

Would you kindly explain your question?

FC

 

[Eventide]

The church of God.. the Lamb's wife.. to be..

Shifting gears here for a moment..

Paul was raised up to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.. to take the gospel of God concerning His Son to the Gentile world.. (as Peter is the Apostle to the Jews).. and because of Israel's rejection of Christ.. the church of God is predominantly Gentile today.. and Israel remains blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

NOW.. if the church of God is Christ's future bride to be.. it only makes sense that the deeper things of God are revealed to His church.. and imo Paul's letters to the churches contain some of the deepest truth to Christians..

The church of God is the body of Christ.. it's one body, His flesh and bone according to scripture.

A wonderful picture of this is found in Genesis with respect to the story of Abraham sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son Isaac.. Rebekah..

Check out the story of Rebekah in Genesis.. it tells the story of the church of God long before it had its beginning at Pentecost.. and of course all of Paul's teachings mirror this wonderous truth written down for us centuries before it ever came to pass.

 

[childeye]

Re: The church of God.. the Lamb's wife.. to be..

Shifting gears here for a moment..

Paul was raised up to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.. to take the gospel of God concerning His Son to the Gentile world.. (as Peter is the Apostle to the Jews).. and because of Israel's rejection of Christ.. the church of God is predominantly Gentile today.. and Israel remains blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

NOW.. if the church of God is Christ's future bride to be.. it only makes sense that the deeper things of God are revealed to His church.. and imo Paul's letters to the churches contain some of the deepest truth to Christians..

The church of God is the body of Christ.. it's one body, His flesh and bone according to scripture.

A wonderful picture of this is found in Genesis with respect to the story of Abraham sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son Isaac.. Rebekah..

Check out the story of Rebekah in Genesis.. it tells the story of the church of God long before it had its beginning at Pentecost.. and of course all of Paul's teachings mirror this wonderous truth written down for us centuries before it ever came to pass.

Yes that is a great story. The way so many things in the Old Testament are perfectly constructed types foretelling future events, backs up God's claim that He declared the end from the beginning or it could not be so. To imagine that God constructs a body for His Christ made out of bodies of men is an interesting use of language. For he as the head and actual sentience is making all the decisions and we as his pseudo-flesh must act according to his will even as we die to our own. This reminds me of what Jesus said, that it is the Spirit that gives life and the flesh profits nothing.

 

[Eventide]

Yes, imo it proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that the bible is the word of God.. because as you said.. the end is told from the beginning.

Rebekah is a perfect picture of the church of God.. written down centuries before the church came into existence.

One thing that strikes me is that Rebekah is asked twice if she is willing to come.. and another amazing thing imo is that her journey ultimately ends up where Isaac is.. and she is taken into his mother's tent..

 

[Webb]

FC

I understand you saying that the Bible is of a "supernatural source" (which I believe) and thus it is explained to you by a "supernatural source". If so, how is this done?