Somethings that are a sin for one may not be for Another

[OzSpen]

Automobile exhaust is harmful...So following this logic driving a car must be a sin. The air pollution in cities is just horrible.

John,

That's an irrational example. A red herring! If I need to travel from home to work to live, whether that is by train, bus, citycat, or car, it is needful for me to travel on or in vehicles that emit fumes that pollute the air. We don't all drive Tesla vehicles yet.

I don't have to drag on a fag and blow smoke into the air to survive and pay the bills. Thus your example is one of fallacious reasoning.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Colossians 2:21 then is in conflict?

John,

This is what happens when you grab a single verse out of context:

20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, 21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires (Col 2:20-23 NLT).​

The ESV translates the NLT's, 'the spiritual powers of this world' as 'the elemental spirits of this world'. Therefore, v. 21 is dealing with the ungodly world system and its powers and not whether you or I cause a fellow Christian to stumble or sin by our actions.

Oz

 

[WIP]

I said nothing about forcing others to participate or do anything.

I've never force fed anyone shrimp or pork products... Never forced anyone to smoke...Never forced anyone to consume alcohol or get a tattoo or piercing...

Why would you think that? What has false accusations got to do with loving?

If smoking among non-smokers is forcing the non-smokers to inhale 2nd hand smoke, then how does that differ from someone driving a car, cooking a meal, heating their home, cooling their home, enjoying a campfire, and so on because all of these things emit smoke into the atmosphere subjecting everyone on the planet to 2nd hand smoke along with the many toxins therein. Today, it can be considered quite dangerous for anyone to take a drink of water from a lake, river, or stream because of all the pollutants that we've created over the centuries.

 

[reba]

I have the "opinion",that there ARE certain things that all Believers can sin in. However,somethings like smoking I believe are between an individual and God.If one person smokes and is not convicted to stop,fine.
I feel that if and when his conscience/conviction/God,tell him to stop and disobeys,then it become sin.Whatcha think?
(Smoking is just an example that popped into my head.)

Sorry your thread has been hijacked...

 

[Nathan]

How come there is not a hijack emoji?

 

[reba]

I often wonder about cultural things... When my uncle lived in France . wine was on the dinner table as part of every day life...He was also stationed in Germany and there it was beer.. this was in Christian homes..

I remember missionary slide shows of the early 50s the missionary talking about making sure the women had their breasts covered..

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

This is off topic somewhat I know,but I have to tell it here.
A few months ago,the neighbors across the street aways plumbing busted. The lady came to ask me to help fix it.
The very next time I drove up into the Churches parking lot,a member (who must have been out front waiting for me),walks up to ask."What were you doing over at ____________'s house while her husband was at work?"
I understand the scriptures tell to avoid the very appearance of evil. But I can't avoid others evil minds.

On the other hand though, it's nice that the person had an eye on the house while the husband was gone. In that light they were looking after the woman and being a good neighbor. Good attributes. With that in mind, you can let the critism roll off your back because it was unmerited, while at the same time be glad that the woman is being looked after.

Either way it sucks when people accuse you of doing some wrong, when you've done no wrong. And it's hard to find any bright side to it when they do. But in this case, it might not be so bad.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Ah, you bring up something that you may not have known you were bringing up.

I heard Ravi Zacharias talk about the temple tax situation.

Matthew 22:15-22
Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances. Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites?Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.

Its like this in our life also. We often come across those who say(to use jl's example) "Why were you at the liquor store??? Don't you know we should stay away from EVERY form of evil????"

There are countless people who would be offended about anything, and everything. If you were to try and not 'do' something that 'might' offend someone - you would literally have to disappear - and even that might offend someone.....

So, these people were coming up to test Jesus - entangle Him in His words - much like people like to do with us by telling us we should not 'do this or that'.

I was following along with Ravi as he spoke on this, and then he said they asked Jesus this question, but when Jesus responded - they just walked away(marveled of course). Ravi said, what is the next logical question? I says in my mind, 'well duh, I would ask what are God's things?'

Then it hit me just as Ravi was answering the same question - and it is also what hit those who tried to trick Jesus.

The coin belonged to Caesar because Caesar made it - it had Caesars image on it.

What belongs to God? What has God's image on it? The answer to that is what you give unto God.

Why worry about how God is using His possessions somewhere else? Often we look at our possessions as Gods possessions, and God's possessions as our possessions. We get it completely backwards.

I hear all too often what a person has to say about another, when the other person is out of the room. It's a sad state to consider that it's so frequent that likely everyone has something said about them without their knowing. Your right we can't avoid everything that might be counted as evil to others, but if we do what is right as best as we can and as often as we can it might follow the logic of having good conquor evil. That your good deeds (or lack of bad deeds) will put a person to shame for thinking the things against you, and cause them to change their views.

On the other hand the people trying to entangle Jesus, boy were they out matched. They were actively trying to find error in Jesus to turn the people against Him. Jesus both called them on it, and used it as a lesson. I like what Ravi teaches about it too.

 

[JohnDB]

I often wonder about cultural things... When my uncle lived in France . wine was on the dinner table as part of every day life...He was also stationed in Germany and there it was beer.. this was in Christian homes..

I remember missionary slide shows of the early 50s the missionary talking about making sure the women had their breasts covered..

The Pilgrims/missionaries that first settled America off the Mayflower and etc were petrified of drinking the water. They drank beer because they often couldn't afford wine and one of the first orders of business was to set up a brewery so people could have something to drink.

Today, in Europe, drinking water out of an unknown tap is still risky. Now if the water has been tested safe it's fine. But that doesn't exist everywhere. In Slovakia there were many places where the water was unsafe.
Drinking bottled water or beer is the norm. Drinking tap water got us some looks. Because it is abnormal. Non-alcoholic beer exists and is as expensive as soft drinks which is more expensive than beer. But that's what must be consumed if driving. (Europe has stringent DUI laws and worse punishments for infractions)

Cultural alcoholic beverage consumption is different than what the teetotalers would have you believe. Modest consumption doesn't give them the same buzz as an abstainer as the drinker's body naturally develops enzymes that break down the alcohol very quickly to the point of not having any debilitating effects from modest consumption. (Excessive consumption gets everyone drunk)

Some races don't have the ability to produce the enzymes and get horribly intoxicated even from small amounts (Native Americans)

Tobacco products aren't limited to smoking. (I like the smell of pipe tobacco) and include such things as snuff and chewing products... Which seems to provide a medicinal property of preventing and curing parasite infection of intestinal tract.

I'm not advocating for these things nor against these things. (As some are)

What I am advocating is against the finger wagging and brow beatings. So someone has tattoos...Big deal...Who cares? What does a tattoo have to do with loving others? What does that nose ring have to do with showing loving kindness?
So someone goes out to their car between small group and worship service to smoke...I'm not affected. Behavior on my part didn't stop Jesus from lovingly dying for me...Even if I enjoy a shrimp cocktail on Easter Sunday before the ham and all with unwashed hands and uncircumcised equipment.

 

[reba]

When Jesus was hassled by satan He answered with Scripture..

 

[JohnDB]

If smoking among non-smokers is forcing the non-smokers to inhale 2nd hand smoke, then how does that differ from someone driving a car, cooking a meal, heating their home, cooling their home, enjoying a campfire, and so on because all of these things emit smoke into the atmosphere subjecting everyone on the planet to 2nd hand smoke along with the many toxins therein. Today, it can be considered quite dangerous for anyone to take a drink of water from a lake, river, or stream because of all the pollutants that we've created over the centuries.

Gotta know where the good rivers and streams are...They ain't all been polluted.
In fact....
In Alaska there are certain communities that buy fish guts to put in the water because the EPA requires a particular amount of particulants to be removed from drinking water and there simply isn't enough otherwise.

 

[reba]

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[JohnDB]

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

3:5 I think puts the nail in the coffin on it.

 

[OzSpen]

If smoking among non-smokers is forcing the non-smokers to inhale 2nd hand smoke, then how does that differ from someone driving a car, cooking a meal, heating their home, cooling their home, enjoying a campfire, and so on because all of these things emit smoke into the atmosphere subjecting everyone on the planet to 2nd hand smoke along with the many toxins therein. Today, it can be considered quite dangerous for anyone to take a drink of water from a lake, river, or stream because of all the pollutants that we've created over the centuries.

WIP,

As I've already indicated to two other moderators and here you have reinforced an Appeal to Ridicule Fallacy by mocking me.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry your thread has been hijacked...

Are you blaming me for hijacking the thread, reba?

The topic is, 'Some things that are sin for one may not be for another'. I used smoking as an example and that was legitimate, not a hijack. Then three moderators have mocked me with an Appeal to Ridicule Fallacy.

It is legitimate within a thread to expose fallacious reasoning when trying to make an argument.

My responses have not been hijacking any topic, but those who have bullied me by mocking and erroneous reasoning have ended rational discussion of this topic.

Don't you understand the damage done by those who commit logical fallacies on CFnet?

Oz

 

[reba]

Don't you understand the damage done by those who commit logical fallacies on CFnet?

No, please explain them to me.

In a proper thread thanks

 

[reba]

Church Gossip

ildred, the church gossip and self-appointed arbiter of the church's morals, kept sticking her nose in the other members' private lives. Church members were unappreciative of her activities, but feared her enough to maintain their silence.

She made a mistake, however, when she accused George, a new member, of being an alcoholic after she saw his pickup truck parked in front of the town's only bar one afternoon.

She commented to George and others that everyone seeing it there would know what he was doing.

George, a man of few words, stared at her for a moment and just walked away. He didn't explain, defend, or deny; he said nothing.

Later that evening, George quietly parked his pickup in front of Mildred's house... and left it there all night!

 

[OzSpen]

No, please explain them to me.

In a proper thread thanks

reba,

I have started a thread in Apologetics titled, 'Damage done by use of logical fallacies'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Church Gossip

ildred, the church gossip and self-appointed arbiter of the church's morals, kept sticking her nose in the other members' private lives. Church members were unappreciative of her activities, but feared her enough to maintain their silence.

She made a mistake, however, when she accused George, a new member, of being an alcoholic after she saw his pickup truck parked in front of the town's only bar one afternoon.

She commented to George and others that everyone seeing it there would know what he was doing.

George, a man of few words, stared at her for a moment and just walked away. He didn't explain, defend, or deny; he said nothing.

Later that evening, George quietly parked his pickup in front of Mildred's house... and left it there all night!

And your point as part of this thread? :woot

 

[Mike]

Ahem...

joseph lentz, I give you back your thread. Take the ball and run, please.