Somethings that are a sin for one may not be for Another

[Not_Now.Soon]

What does 'Spoking verses' mean?

It was a typo, but I don't remember what I meant to write. Just ignore "spoking" (which is the typo) and "verses" (which no longer makes sence with the typo.

On that note. I think Reba is right. We can move on from smoking to in general about is there are some things that are a sin to some, but not to everyone. That said, Reba I think like smoking we'll have to flash out the details for any example. It's hard to cover this topic broadly and not dissect the examples to see if either side has merrit.

 

[joseph lentz]

It was a typo, but I don't remember what I meant to write. Just ignore "spoking" (which is the typo) and "verses" (which no longer makes sence with the typo.

On that note. I think Reba is right. We can move on from smoking to in general about is there are some things that are a sin to some, but not to everyone. That said, Reba I think like smoking we'll have to flash out the details for any example. It's hard to cover this topic broadly and not dissect the examples to see if either side has merrit.

Hi brother,
As I stated, smoking was just the first example to pop in my head. I am sure there are many examples,since most everyone has their idea of what sins are or are not. My thoughts were,that aside from what is clearly defined in scripture as sin,a lot of folk want to tack on,or invent more.When they think they shouldn't do certain things,then they feel no one should.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Hi brother,
As I stated, smoking was just the first example to pop in my head. I am sure there are many examples,since most everyone has their idea of what sins are or are not. My thoughts were,that aside from what is clearly defined in scripture as sin,a lot of folk want to tack on,or invent more.When they think they shouldn't do certain things,then they feel no one should.

I understand what you meant. But I think this is a topic that could easily be talked about only in a broad sense without getting into the nitty details. Having examples like smoking to consider I think really help point out if that should count as a universal sin, or if anything should count as an individual sin but not universally a sin.

Do you have any other examples to consider sins people tack on? Or sins that are ignored. (If smoking counts as a sin due to not treating our body well, then it counts as a sin that is largely ignored).

Here's another one: how much we pay our employees. I'm sureI've read a law in the bible to pay your workers a fair wage, yet in the US, we have a system of paying restruant servers not by the employer but largely by tips from costumers. Is it a sin that we use a tip system for servers to get a decent paycheck, instead of having the restruant take ownership?

On the same note, many people look at people based on their job as a means to respect them or an excuse to disrespect them. Is it a sin to let our frustrations out on restruant staff, store clerks, and janitors? Yet often we hold higher respect and patience for other offices of work.

Is animal cruelty a sin? Does that standard count for science and medicine where animals are largely the test subjects until a product gets tested by people?

__________________________________________
Honestly I think smoking or tattoos might be the best example. It would best put the question on an indivual level instead of broadening right or wrong's universal standards to other areas. (All my examples so far seem to go the direction of what counts as a sin instead of are there indivual sins that aren't universal).

 

[Nathan]

I understand what you meant. But I think this is a topic that could easily be talked about only in a broad sense without getting into the nitty details. Having examples like smoking to consider I think really help point out if that should count as a universal sin, or if anything should count as an individual sin but not universally a sin.

Do you have any other examples to consider sins people tack on? Or sins that are ignored. (If smoking counts as a sin due to not treating our body well, then it counts as a sin that is largely ignored).

Here's another one: how much we pay our employees. I'm sureI've read a law in the bible to pay your workers a fair wage, yet in the US, we have a system of paying restruant servers not by the employer but largely by tips from costumers. Is it a sin that we use a tip system for servers to get a decent paycheck, instead of having the restruant take ownership?

On the same note, many people look at people based on their job as a means to respect them or an excuse to disrespect them. Is it a sin to let our frustrations out on restruant staff, store clerks, and janitors? Yet often we hold higher respect and patience for other offices of work.

Is animal cruelty a sin? Does that standard count for science and medicine where animals are largely the test subjects until a product gets tested by people?

__________________________________________
Honestly I think smoking or tattoos might be the best example. It would best put the question on an indivual level instead of broadening right or wrong's universal standards to other areas. (All my examples so far seem to go the direction of what counts as a sin instead of are there indivual sins that aren't universal).

Yea, where does it all end really? If you start trying to break 'sin' down. Is it a sin to squish an ant? I have to honestly say sometimes I feel bad when doing so.

I think this is why Jesus said it was this simple. Love. Anything not done in love for God, or love for your fellow man, is sin.

 

[reba]

gossip and backbiting are ignored or sometimes called a prayer chain...

 

[Nathan]

gossip and backbiting are ignored or sometimes called a prayer chain...

Don't get me started.......I go to a southern baptist church.........

 

[joseph lentz]

I understand what you meant. But I think this is a topic that could easily be talked about only in a broad sense without getting into the nitty details. Having examples like smoking to consider I think really help point out if that should count as a universal sin, or if anything should count as an individual sin but not universally a sin.

Do you have any other examples to consider sins people tack on? Or sins that are ignored. (If smoking counts as a sin due to not treating our body well, then it counts as a sin that is largely ignored).

Here's another one: how much we pay our employees. I'm sureI've read a law in the bible to pay your workers a fair wage, yet in the US, we have a system of paying restruant servers not by the employer but largely by tips from costumers. Is it a sin that we use a tip system for servers to get a decent paycheck, instead of having the restruant take ownership?

On the same note, many people look at people based on their job as a means to respect them or an excuse to disrespect them. Is it a sin to let our frustrations out on restruant staff, store clerks, and janitors? Yet often we hold higher respect and patience for other offices of work.

Is animal cruelty a sin? Does that standard count for science and medicine where animals are largely the test subjects until a product gets tested by people?

__________________________________________
Honestly I think smoking or tattoos might be the best example. It would best put the question on an indivual level instead of broadening right or wrong's universal standards to other areas. (All my examples so far seem to go the direction of what counts as a sin instead of are there indivual sins that aren't universal).

Well ya know,I had the picture of the pharisees in my mind when starting this thread. They came up with all kinds of rules and such. Today,SOME Churches demand you wear a suit and tie,a certain blazer with their emblem on it.I could go on and on. If someone sees my car at the liquor store I must be buying alcohol even though I was actually just getting a check cashed and buying a soda.

 

[reba]

Raised Pentecostal... I was about 40 years old met Barbara... A strong praying Christian lady... tough on the out side a soft warm heart... she showed me a Christian could smoke and still be a Christian... She tried over and over to quit.. she did not like that smoking had her..Never heard her gossip or backbite... we both worked at the local school ...That was a huge lesson for me... God delivered me from smoking summer of 1971 (my rebellious extended teen years..)

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Well ya know,I had the picture of the pharisees in my mind when starting this thread. They came up with all kinds of rules and such. Today,SOME Churches demand you wear a suit and tie,a certain blazer with their emblem on it.I could go on and on. If someone sees my car at the liquor store I must be buying alcohol even though I was actually just getting a check cashed and buying a soda.

I see. That helps a lot. Thanks. Jesus asked and answered a simular thing with Peter concerning paying the temple tax. Are they bound by it by being citizens of Heaven? No, but they would pay it anyways to not offend or be a stumbling block. (I think there was something else about avoiding being a stumbling block that Paul wrote about.)

I don't know. Jesus stood up to the false tradutions of the religous leaders imposing on the people. Made an example out of them. But sometimes perhaps if we don't conform to another's view of right and wrong we may be a stumbling block for them, as Paul advised concerning people's diet.

 

[joseph lentz]

This is off topic somewhat I know,but I have to tell it here.
A few months ago,the neighbors across the street aways plumbing busted. The lady came to ask me to help fix it.
The very next time I drove up into the Churches parking lot,a member (who must have been out front waiting for me),walks up to ask."What were you doing over at ____________'s house while her husband was at work?"
I understand the scriptures tell to avoid the very appearance of evil. But I can't avoid others evil minds.

 

[Nathan]

I see. That helps a lot. Thanks. Jesus asked and answered a simular thing with Peter concerning paying the temple tax. Are they bound by it by being citizens of Heaven? No, but they would pay it anyways to not offend or be a stumbling block. (I think there was something else about avoiding being a stumbling block that Paul wrote about.)

I don't know. Jesus stood up to the false tradutions of the religous leaders imposing on the people. Made an example out of them. But sometimes perhaps if we don't conform to another's view of right and wrong we may be a stumbling block for them, as Paul advised concerning people's diet.

Ah, you bring up something that you may not have known you were bringing up.

I heard Ravi Zacharias talk about the temple tax situation.

Matthew 22:15-22
Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances. Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites?Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.

Its like this in our life also. We often come across those who say(to use jl's example) "Why were you at the liquor store??? Don't you know we should stay away from EVERY form of evil????"

There are countless people who would be offended about anything, and everything. If you were to try and not 'do' something that 'might' offend someone - you would literally have to disappear - and even that might offend someone.....

So, these people were coming up to test Jesus - entangle Him in His words - much like people like to do with us by telling us we should not 'do this or that'.

I was following along with Ravi as he spoke on this, and then he said they asked Jesus this question, but when Jesus responded - they just walked away(marveled of course). Ravi said, what is the next logical question? I says in my mind, 'well duh, I would ask what are God's things?'

Then it hit me just as Ravi was answering the same question - and it is also what hit those who tried to trick Jesus.

The coin belonged to Caesar because Caesar made it - it had Caesars image on it.

What belongs to God? What has God's image on it? The answer to that is what you give unto God.

Why worry about how God is using His possessions somewhere else? Often we look at our possessions as Gods possessions, and God's possessions as our possessions. We get it completely backwards.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi everyone.
Just a quick post, and I'm outta here.

Joe says smoking isn't a sin, unless one is convicted that it is a sin.
Oz says it's a sin, period.

Paul writes to the church in Corinth about meat sacrificed to idols. In summary,
You have the freedom to eat, if your giving thanks to God. However, if one views this as a sin, then for him, it is a sin.
For the one notconvicted in this matter, he is not to eat meat sacrificed to idols in the presence of the one who views it as a sin.

Paul elsewhere says not to argue over disputable matters. So, the best you two can do is understand where each stands, and respect each other as fellow brothers in Chris.

Enjoy giving thanks to God for that fag, and on a brighter side, don't be surprised if you get sick more often and get emphysema. Smoking does come with consequences...

In other words, while all things may be permissible, not all things are benificial

Grace and peace

 

[OzSpen]

It was a typo, but I don't remember what I meant to write. Just ignore "spoking" (which is the typo) and "verses" (which no longer makes sence with the typo.

On that note. I think Reba is right. We can move on from smoking to in general about is there are some things that are a sin to some, but not to everyone. That said, Reba I think like smoking we'll have to flash out the details for any example. It's hard to cover this topic broadly and not dissect the examples to see if either side has merrit.

NNS,

We have examples of inappropriate behaviour leading others to sin/stumble, in:

• Rom 14:19-21 (NIV): '19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall'.
• 1 Cor 8:13 (NIV): 'Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall'.

See: What does it mean that we are not to cause others to stumble? (Got Questions?) In this brief article, alcohol is used as an example.

Oz

 

[abide]

I have the "opinion",that there ARE certain things that all Believers can sin in. However,somethings like smoking I believe are between an individual and God.If one person smokes and is not convicted to stop,fine.
I feel that if and when his conscience/conviction/God,tell him to stop and disobeys,then it become sin.Whatcha think?
(Smoking is just an example that popped into my head.)

If our body is God's temple why destroy it with smoking. Not only is it unhealthy but it is foolishness economically speaking burning paper and inhaling the fumes. Christians should be disciplined and not everything is outlined in the bible, but anyone can tell that smoking is destructive and it affects others. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

[reba]

I wonder what things might be a cultural thing... 100+ years ago it was a sin to ware a bathing suit.. Heck 55 years ago i knew girls who's dad would not let them have a swimming suit but wet T shirt was ok 2

Dont even think about going to a dance... but some how skating was ok

 

[Mike]

Do you have any other examples to consider sins people tack on? Or sins that are ignored. (If smoking counts as a sin due to not treating our body well, then it counts as a sin that is largely ignored).

The list is as long as that of notions of men who put ***** before God. I'm not suggesting our lives are endless landmines of sin; just that we can make idols out of anything that becomes sin to us and not necessarily others. With that, I believe it's important to ask and keep asking the Lord to show us where we are putting ourselves before Him. And then it's important to respond.

gossip and backbiting are ignored or sometimes called a prayer chain...

The worst poison to man. IMHO, worse than many of the obvious examples we call outright sin. It's toxic to the Body of Christ.

I heard Ravi Zacharias talk about the temple tax situation.

Dude is anointed. Any day is better with a little bit of Ravi. :yes

Paul writes to the church in Corinth about meat sacrificed to idols. In summary,
You have the freedom to eat, if your giving thanks to God. However, if one views this as a sin, then for him, it is a sin.
For the one notconvicted in this matter, he is not to eat meat sacrificed to idols in the presence of the one who views it as a sin.

Perfect scripture to reference here. Thanks for responding with this!

 

[OzSpen]

Yea, where does it all end really? If you start trying to break 'sin' down. Is it a sin to squish an ant? I have to honestly say sometimes I feel bad when doing so.

I think this is why Jesus said it was this simple. Love. Anything not done in love for God, or love for your fellow man, is sin.

Nathan,

According to Gen 1:26 (NLT), 'Then God said, "Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground'. So ants fall into the latter category.

We know from passages such as Lev 11 and Deut 14:3-21 the kinds of animals that God provided for human beings to eat. So, killing animals for good cannot be wrong, according to these passages. We have a couple examples of this, one from the OT and the other from Jesus in the NT.

From the OT, King David was a game hunter who killed a lion to protect his sheep (1 Sam 17:34-38). Some of the disciples of Christ were fisherman and on one fishing trip, Jesus caused them to get a great catch of fish (Lk 5:1-9). They had laboured all night for nothing, but then we are told of the miracle of 2 boat loads of fish caught. I'm pretty sure the fish were not to put in an aquarium (with help from source).

I consider ants, rats, mice, wasps, mosquitoes, sand flies, flying foxes/bats, etc are predators that need to be killed. Flying foxes do horrendous damage to fruit on trees here in Queensland.

They love mangoes so much that, to protect the fruit, farmers have to cover these largish trees with netting to keep the flying foxes away from this precious fruit.

(flying foxes)

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

Ok...
So with all this talk about what is or isn't a sin...Let's review.

The goal of Christianity and our behavior is to "Love the Lord thy God with all heart, mind, and power". Which gets expressed by loving our neighbors.

So in short, we are supposed to work towards being more loving.

So...
How does consuming, touching, tasting or artistic expression anything (like alcohol, piercings, tattoos, or tobacco) have to do with not loving others or God?

 

[abide]

Ok...
So with all this talk about what is or isn't a sin...Let's review.

The goal of Christianity and our behavior is to "Love the Lord thy God with all heart, mind, and power". Which gets expressed by loving our neighbors.

So in short, we are supposed to work towards being more loving.

So...
How does consuming, touching, tasting or artistic expression anything (like alcohol, piercings, tattoos, or tobacco) have to do with not loving others or God?

If smoking is causing someone to inhale second hand smoke and subject them to lung disease how can say that you love them?.

 

[JohnDB]

If smoking is causing someone to inhale second hand smoke and subject them to lung disease how can say that you love them?.

I said nothing about forcing others to participate or do anything.

I've never force fed anyone shrimp or pork products... Never forced anyone to smoke...Never forced anyone to consume alcohol or get a tattoo or piercing...

Why would you think that? What has false accusations got to do with loving?