Soul sleep false?

[Butch5]

So okay Butch, here is my understanding. I do not "believe" in "soul sleep" for any who are genuinely born of God (made a new creature, that has eternal life)...I will post no more on this unless personally addressed, but I am enjoying everyone's comments and know we all seek truth in the word...

I don't believe soul sleep (the soul exists but is unconscious) either. I don't believe the soul exists when man dies as a soul consists of a body and the breath of life. If the body dies the soul doesn't exist anymore. If you have water and take away the oxygen you no longer have water.

 

[DRS81]

Is this what you believe?
.

Absolutely. I have changed by belief on this, and that's important to me. I needed to confirm it in my own heart, the same way I know rapture happens after the sixth seal. I needed God to confirm this for me through scripture, and he finally has. There's just too much evidence that soul sleep is in fact true. I recommend everyone read the start of post 75. There is in fact nobody in heaven or hell right now. All the dead are awaiting resurrection after the sixth seal and then judgment. I'm sorry Gary for testing you like that. - DRS81

 

[Butch5]

Here's a picture of the resurrection, notice that when God brings the bodies back together it is "His" spirit that He puts in them and they live, not their spirit.

All of the bolded words are the word Ruwach

Ezekiel 37 and Ruwach


The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Eze 37:1-14 KJV)


Bold = Ruwach

Breath, wind, spirit.

 

[agua.]

Absolutely. I have changed by belief on this, and that's important to me. I needed to confirm it in my own heart, the same way I know rapture happens after the sixth seal. I needed God to confirm this for me through scripture, and he finally has. There's just too much evidence that soul sleep is in fact true. I recommend everyone read the start of post 75. There is in fact nobody in heaven or hell right now. All the dead are awaiting resurrection after the sixth seal and then judgment. I'm sorry Gary for testing you like that. - DRS81

Cool. Makes you wonder why you suggested it was false in the beginning eh.

 

[DRS81]

Cool. Makes you wonder why you suggested it was false in the beginning eh.

Yeah I know. I haven't really looked too deep into the subject until now. Scripture also tells us that the devil isn't even in hell yet. He's on this earth roaming around. 1 Peter 5:8.

 

[DRS81]

Soul sleep also makes sense because, for example..

Say John Smith died a nonbeliever in the year 1751. Well 1751 is further from the second death than say someone who dies in 2013. Rev 20:5-6.

Why would God allow more suffering for John Smith just because he was born 260 years ago.

 

[TOG]

.......When that happens, he is separated from his body, which goes back to the grave, and his soul goes back to earth to be reunited with his body a second time in what the Bible calls the first resurrection, and then he goes to Heaven for the third time, where he will stay for the rest of eternity.

You said (a man dies), well your example is different for a believer and nonbeliever.

I said...

I have a feeling most people don't think this completely though, but here's what happens when a believer dies if soul sleep is false.

Both examples assumed that the man in question was saved.

Your explanation is just silly and not biblical. Try again. You lost me at (When that happens...).

My point exactly. Two very commonly held beliefs are that a) we go directly to Heaven (assuming we are saved) when we die, and b) that there will be a rapture of believers before the great tribulation in the end times. I have been saved for over 40 years, and most Christians I've met during that time believe both of these teachings. Taken separately, they can both be supported from Scripture and they both make sense, but taken together, they stop making any sense whatsoever. I was trying to show the logical conclusion of believing both doctrines together. As for the "When that happens", it's not what I believe, but what I concluded must happen for both doctrines to be true. Since, according to the rapture doctrine, believers' souls are reunited with their bodies, which are glorified and raised from the grave at the rapture, and the Bible says that we are raised in the first resurrection when Jesus returns, the glorified body people got at the rapture must be separated from their souls so they can be reunited again at the first resurrection. Like you said, it's silly and not biblical, which is why I don't believe it. What I believe is that both doctrines are wrong. There will be no pre-tribulation rapture, and we do not go immediately to Heaven when we die.

Things are not much better if we look at what happens to unbelievers. If they go to Hell immediately, then this is what happens...

A man dies. His body is buried and his soul goes before God and is judged and sent to Hell, where he stays until the end of Christ's thousand year reign here on earth. At that time, is soul is reunited with his body and he goes back before God, where he is judged again and sent back to Hell. Why judge him twice? Doesn't it make more sense to believe that he will be unconscious until the resurrection of the unrighteous and be judged and sent to Hell only once?

The TOG​

 

[jeff77]

It makes sense to me TOG. However, even though we don't go to heaven immediately upon death, the first thing we experience immediately after we die will be the resurrection/Judgement. So in a way it really is like going to straight to heaven because there is nothing we do in between. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[TOG]

It makes sense to me TOG. However, even though we don't go to heaven immediately upon death, the first thing we experience immediately after we die will be the resurrection/Judgement. So in a way it really is like going to straight to heaven because there is nothing we do in between. That's how I see it anyway.

Everybody has experienced sleep, and so the analogy of sleep is used to refer to death, because everyone can understand it. But no analogy is perfect. When you sleep, you are still aware of your surroundings. That's why alarm clocks are able to wake us up. Being unconscious, which not everyone has experienced, is quite different. You are not at all aware of your surroundings, and no alarm clock could bring you out of it. Also, during sleep, we are aware of the passage of time, even though we may experience it a little differently than when we're awake. In unconsciousness, there is no apparent passage of time. If a person is moved while unconscious, it will seem to him that he was instantly transported from the place where he lost consciousness to the place where he regained consciousness. I believe death will be more like being unconscious than sleep. Even though thousands of years may actually pass, it will seem to us that we see Jesus immediately after we die.

The TOG​

 

[DRS81]

agua. Gary Butch5 TOG I do have one more question though before I finally turn change my belief.

If there are no souls in hell right now, then what is this place called Hades.
Wouldn't Hades be the first death, and isn't Hades and the Lake of fire two different places for souls.
Also, why do they say (death and Hades)..Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[Kathi]

agua. Gary Butch5 TOG I do have one more question though before I finally turn change my belief.

If there are no souls in hell right now, then what is this place called Hades.
Wouldn't Hades be the first death, and isn't Hades and the Lake of fire two different places for souls.
Also, why do they say (death and Hades)..Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Yes,DRS.You did not believe in soul sleep in the past.What changed your mind?

 

[Gary]

agua. Gary Butch5 TOG I do have one more question though before I finally turn change my belief.

If there are no souls in hell right now, then what is this place called Hades.
Wouldn't Hades be the first death, and isn't Hades and the Lake of fire two different places for souls.
Also, why do they say (death and Hades)..Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

I don't believe I said hell was empty.

Revelation 20
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.


From that verse it is obvious that hell contains the souls of those who are perishing.
.

 

[DRS81]

Yes,DRS.You did not believe in soul sleep in the past.What changed your mind?

The beginning of post 75. We are unable to see God without our immortal bodies, and we only receive our immortal bodies at the first resurrection/rapture.

I don't believe I said hell was empty.

Revelation 20
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.


From that verse it is obvious that hell contains the souls of those who are perishing.
.

Ok, but what is hell to you? Is it temporary punishment or a grave where bodies rest. If hell isn't empty with souls right now why would heaven be empty with souls right now. Then wouldn't soul sleep be false?

 

[Kathi]

The beginning of post 75. We are unable to see God without our immortal bodies, and we only receive our immortal bodies at the first resurrection/rapture.



Ok, but what is hell to you? Is it temporary punishment or a grave where bodies rest. If hell isn't empty with souls right now why would heaven be empty with souls right now. Then wouldn't soul sleep be false?

What is hell to you DRS?Is hell empty?Who goes to hell?Do you believe in hell?

 

[DRS81]

What is hell to you DRS?Is hell empty?Who goes to hell?Do you believe in hell?

At this point I don't know (what) to believe. If soul sleep is true, then why is there a hell/hades?

 

[Kathi]

At this point I don't know (what) to believe. If soul sleep is true, then why is there a hell/hades?

It is easy to get confused on this messageboard.Their are many different unbibical beliefs.I think that can be dangerous.You can not take the Holy Word of God and twist it around to mean what you want it to mean.You have to take it literally just what it says.

 

[TimothyW]

At this point I don't know (what) to believe. If soul sleep is true, then why is there a hell/hades?

According to the Bible, those who who are sent to hell are destroyed there. (Matthew 10:28).
The wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell.

 

[Kathi]

At this point I don't know (what) to believe. If soul sleep is true, then why is there a hell/hades?

Read the Bible for yourself and pray over it.Don't go by what other people say or you will be led astray.

 

[DRS81]

According to the Bible, those who who are sent to hell are destroyed there. (Matthew 10:28).
The wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell.

But the definition of hell is punishment, torment and misery. If they are without consciousness then the definition of hell is wrong.

 

[agua.]

agua. Gary Butch5 TOG I do have one more question though before I finally turn change my belief.

If there are no souls in hell right now, then what is this place called Hades.
Wouldn't Hades be the first death, and isn't Hades and the Lake of fire two different places for souls.
Also, why do they say (death and Hades)..Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

You said this a few posts ago I'd be careful with how easily you change your mind.

"Absolutely. I have changed by belief on this, and that's important to me. I needed to confirm it in my own heart, the same way I know rapture happens after the sixth seal. I needed God to confirm this for me through scripture, and he finally has."

Hades is the grave and everyone who dies goes there after the first death which is why they're linked. The LoF is the destination of the wicked only after the GWT judgement where death and Hades are done away with. Death isn't an entity and can be picked up and tossed so this is symbolic of the end of the power of death over humanity. No more death and subsequently no more need for the grave.