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Soul sleep false?

Most believe Revelation was written in the 90's which would mean none of the other apostles ever saw that book of revelation.

That begs the question though. Why did John write the words (The Lake of Fire). What made him even think of these words? Is this for example a literal lake? For many years I've held on to the vision of a (literal) lake of fire. Are pictures like these based on fiction and is in fact not biblical and more Hollywood type?...http://facesofjesus.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/lake-of-fire-2.jpg ...............And that brings me to my next experiment. I have a test for you and sort of a fun project for ya. Find me a picture on google of what judgment for nonbelievers in the afterlife looks like. Blessings, DRS81.

most Christians believe the destiny of the believer is Heaven, not earth.

I think you're probably right, many believers don't see eternity or what it looks like. Nobody will ever experience the heaven in which Jesus dwells now, at the right hand of the Father. That specific heaven (right now) is Jesus and the Father's home base to do the works of salvation and judgment until the great white throne judgment has ended. After the great white throne judgment, a new Jerusalem (inside) the new heaven comes down and sets up shop on a new and better earth Rev 21:1-2. I believe that after the great white throne judgment is finished, God is going to re-create the whole earth. How long is this going to take him? Nobody knows, but it's gonna be pretty unreal. Imagine living on this earth right now but without sin, forever.
 
I thought you were talking about the state of people between death and the resurrection. Do you understand why Jesus said Yahweh is the God of the living because of the resurrection ?

Abraham's body was dead ( asleep ).

Abraham himself was alive in Paradise, in the heart of the earth.

Do you believe Abraham's spirit was in the tomb with his body?


JLB
 
HI Kathi,

I'm sorry but that is not what the Scriptures teach. A soul is a living being with a body. A soul doesn't live forever, it lives as long as the body lives. The body of all people goes into hades (the grave) at death. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches that souls go to Heaven when they die. They can't they don't exist. Scripture is also pretty clear on the state of the dead, it says they know nothing and have no remembrance of God.

4 Return, O LORD, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Psa 6:4-5 NKJ)

5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.
(Ecc 9:5-6 NKJ)

Scripture says the death know nothing, and have no memory of God.

A human being is spirit soul and body, not just soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7

In order to be considered "alive" a person must have their spirit within them.


For the body without the spirit is dead.


So we see a living being must have their spirit within them to be alive.



JLB
 
Absolutely. I have changed by belief on this, and that's important to me. I needed to confirm it in my own heart, the same way I know rapture happens after the sixth seal. I needed God to confirm this for me through scripture, and he finally has. There's just too much evidence that soul sleep is in fact true. I recommend everyone read the start of post 75. There is in fact nobody in heaven or hell right now. All the dead are awaiting resurrection after the sixth seal and then judgment. I'm sorry Gary for testing you like that. - DRS81

I guess this means you don't agree with what i believe Jesus taught in Luke 16?

Who are those that return with Jesus when He comes to Gather His people at the resurrection?

Revelation 19 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

God will bring with Jesus!

With Jesus!

Jesus is in heaven and the Church will return WITH JESUS!

I believe Soul sleep is just simply not true!

Jesus taught us about a righteous person, Abraham, and an unrighteous person, The rich man, are what happens to them when their body dies.

The rich man was buried!

His body was in the tomb that he was buried in.

His spirit/soul was in torment and in hell.

Jesus said the rich man looked and recognized Abraham and Lazarus.

Why would Jesus teach us something that wasn't true? This is insulting stop using this kind of phraseology

Jesus taught a lot in parables some folks believe that story is a parable..


JLB

JLB The pink font is reba speaking
 
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That begs the question though. Why did John write the words (The Lake of Fire). What made him even think of these words? Is this for example a literal lake? For many years I've held on to the vision of a (literal) lake of fire. Are pictures like these based on fiction and is in fact not biblical and more Hollywood type?...http://facesofjesus.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/lake-of-fire-2.jpg ...............And that brings me to my next experiment. I have a test for you and sort of a fun project for ya. Find me a picture on google of what judgment for nonbelievers in the afterlife looks like. Blessings, DRS81.



I think you're probably right, many believers don't see eternity or what it looks like. Nobody will ever experience the heaven in which Jesus dwells now, at the right hand of the Father. That specific heaven (right now) is Jesus and the Father's home base to do the works of salvation and judgment until the great white throne judgment has ended. After the great white throne judgment, a new Jerusalem (inside) the new heaven comes down and sets up shop on a new and better earth Rev 21:1-2. I believe that after the great white throne judgment is finished, God is going to re-create the whole earth. How long is this going to take him? Nobody knows, but it's gonna be pretty unreal. Imagine living on this earth right now but without sin, forever.

Hi DRS81,

Actually, I don't know what the judgment will look like. The language of Revelation is apocryphal like that of the prophets. I suspect that is to make us look deeply into the Scripture to find the answers. I don't know if the Lake of fire will be a literal lake or not, I suspect it is more figurative. I suspect it presents an image of the bodies burning outside of Jerusalem which I do believe is literal.
 
A human being is spirit soul and body, not just soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7
In order to be considered "alive" a person must have their spirit within them.

For the body without the spirit is dead.

So we see a living being must have their spirit within them to be alive.


JLB

Hi JLB,

I'm not being rude or disrespectful, however, as long as we've been discussing this how is it that my position is not clear on this. Nowhere did I say that man was just a body and soul. I have stated right from the very beginning that man is soul that consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God.
 
More proof that we are resting in our graves between death and the first resurrection..

Dan 12:13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

Yes I believe Daniel went to be at rest with Abraham, in the heart of the earth, in Abraham's Bosom.


JLB
 
Hi JLB,

I'm not being rude or disrespectful, however, as long as we've been discussing this how is it that my position is not clear on this. Nowhere did I say that man was just a body and soul. I have stated right from the very beginning that man is soul that consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God.

Man has a spirit apart from God's spirit.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

God's Spirit.

Our spirit.


JLB
 
Man has a spirit apart from God's spirit.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

God's Spirit.

Our spirit.


JLB

Everyone has the breath/spirit of God. The word "our" shows possession, It doesn't necessitate that that spirit is man. If I say our truck it doesn't mean we are a truck, it means we have a truck. If I say I have a spirit it doesn't mean I am a spirit. If there was a spirit in man that was the man then Paul would need to say God's spirit bears witness with "us", not our spirit. By using the possessive pronoun Paul is showing that it is something we possess not what we are. That he used a possessive pronoun shows that we are not a spirit.
 
Hi DRS81,

Actually, I don't know what the judgment will look like. The language of Revelation is apocryphal like that of the prophets. I suspect that is to make us look deeply into the Scripture to find the answers. I don't know if the Lake of fire will be a literal lake or not, I suspect it is more figurative. I suspect it presents an image of the bodies burning outside of Jerusalem which I do believe is literal.

Blessings Butch. You had used the word 'apocryphal'.
This word means false and/or counterfeit.
The language of Revelation is false/counterfeit like the prophets? What do u mean.
Ok, I'm trying to get a picture in my mind..

So after the great white throne judgment, God (transfers) all the dead bodies of nonbelievers to the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. He then let's them burn for a while before the start of the New Heaven and New Earth . So when these bodies are burning, are their souls also (burning within) for a certain period of time, and then God destroys them? After God finally destroys them, then he creates a New Heaven and New Earth. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this image, it seems really strange. Is this image scriptural.

Abraham's body was dead ( asleep ).

Abraham himself was alive in Paradise, in the heart of the earth.

Do you believe Abraham's spirit was in the tomb with his body?

JLB

Luke 16:19-31 is the only time Hades is used to describe torment, inside a parable none the less. (Hint Hint). It is metaphorical and allegory, not literal.

Man has a spirit apart from God's spirit.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

God's Spirit.

Our spirit.


JLB

Butch is not saying man does not have a spirit. He's saying man (is) a soul that (has) a spirit and body. IS/HAS..(Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)
 
Blessings Butch. You had used the word 'apocryphal'.
This word means false and/or counterfeit.
The language of Revelation is false/counterfeit like the prophets? What do u mean.
Ok, I'm trying to get a picture in my mind..

I'm sorry, meant apocalyptic not apocryphal

So after the great white throne judgment, God (transfers) all the dead bodies of nonbelievers to the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. He then let's them burn for a while before the start of the New Heaven and New Earth . So when these bodies are burning, are their souls also (burning within) for a certain period of time, and then God destroys them? After God finally destroys them, then he creates a New Heaven and New Earth. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this image, it seems really strange. Is this image scriptural.

As I understand it after they are judged they are thrown into the Lake of Fire where they are live until the die and burn. I don't know it will play out exactly, I'm not sure we have enough information to figure it all out.
 
As I understand it after they are judged they are thrown into the Lake of Fire where they are live until the die and burn. I don't know it will play out exactly, I'm not sure we have enough information to figure it all out.

Why did John write the words (The Lake of Fire). What made him even think of these words? Why didn't he just write Gehenna.
 
Why did John write the words (The Lake of Fire). What made him even think of these words? Why didn't he just write Gehenna.
Because Gehenna is a metaphor for the lake of fire.
 
Why did John write the words (The Lake of Fire). What made him even think of these words? Why didn't he just write Gehenna.

I don't think John chose the words, I believe they were given to him. Revelation is using the same style as the prophets. Itmight be so that we can make the connections between the two.
 
I don't think John chose the words, I believe they were given to him. Revelation is using the same style as the prophets. Itmight be so that we can make the connections between the two.

What are your thoughts on Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire.
 
Abraham's body was dead ( asleep ).

Abraham himself was alive in Paradise, in the heart of the earth.

Do you believe Abraham's spirit was in the tomb with his body?


JLB

No Abraham's spirit is with Yahweh along with the spirits of all dead people. For believers it's considered to be asleep in Christ.
 
Hi guys, and blessings to all. I'm going to attempt to prove that..
soul sleep is false using (gotquestions and bibledotorg).
Bibledotorg also makes some valid points in 1-3...

Particular Judgment and Universal Judgment
Literal sleep/no - Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6
Moment we die/facing judgment - Hebrews 9:27
Absent from body/present with Lord - 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23
Everlasting punishment in hell - Luke 16:22-23
Temporary heaven/paradise - Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4
Temporary hell/hades - Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14
Literal sleep/no - Luke 16:19-31
Believers in paradise/sent to new heavens and new earth - Revelation 21:1
Nonbelievers in hades/sent to lake of fire - Revelation 20:11-15

What does the Bible say about soul sleep?

Question: "What does the Bible say about soul sleep?"

Answer: “Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14). As can be clearly seen in Luke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Present-day defenders of soul sleep include the Seventh Day Adventist church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, and others.

http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html#ixzz34YBXWij3
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Is soul sleep’ biblical? When we die do we go to heaven immediately or at the second coming?

A person who has trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior goes immediately to heaven to be in the presence of the Lord. Though their body is in the grave and decomposes, their soul and spirit (the immaterial part, the real person) goes immediately into the presence of the Savior. At the rapture (the return of the Lord for the church) the dead in Christ return with Him and their bodies are raised so that their souls and spirits are joined with their resurrected, glorified bodies. At the same time, those who are alive when Christ returns are simply transformed into their glorified bodies like that of the Savior’s. There is no intermediate place or condition of soul sleep. Rather, believers are in heaven with the Lord and very much aware of His presence. Here are a few verses that illustrate this:

Phil. 1:21-23. “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;”

When Paul wrote this, he was imprisoned in his own apartment, chained daily to a Roman soldier while waiting for his trial with the very real the possibility he would be put to death. Though he was confident of deliverance from physical death at this time, he was also confident that to die meant to be with Christ which he declared to be far better, a statement which hardly fits with the concept of “soul sleep.”

2 Cor. 5:6-8. “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight, 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”

In this passage, the Apostle Paul specifically tells us that to absent from the body (a reference to physical death), not only meant to be in the presence of the Lord, but it was like going home. See also John 14:1f, and 12:26.

1 Thess. 4:13-18. 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The reference to “sleep” in this passage is a metaphor for death which compares one thing (physical death) to another (sleep). It is used of believers because for us, death is somewhat like sleep. The use of the word “sleep” for death is used only of believes in the New Testament. The aim of this metaphor is to suggest what death is like and means to the believer, but this must be understood in the light of all of Scripture:

(1) As the sleeper does not cease to exist while his body sleeps, so the dead person continues to exist. The grave is like a bed for the body.

(2) As the immaterial part of man when asleep is still functioning to some degree in that he dreams and his sub-conscious is still at work, so likewise the believer’s soul and spirit are awake and enjoying the presence of God.

(3) As sleep is temporary, so also is the death of the body. Sleep is a figure of speech for death and anticipates resurrection but it is not meant to suggest soul sleep. This is evident from the above verses, Phil. 1:23 and 2 Cor. 5:8.

The verb “to sleep,” koimao, is used of both natural sleep (Matt. 28:13; Luke 22:45; Acts 12:6), and of death, but only of the death of the Christian (here in vss. 13, 14, 15; Matt. 27:52; Jn. 11:11; 1 Cor. 7:39; 11:30; 15:6, 18, 51; 2 Pe. 3:4). In 1 Thess. 5, the word used for sleep is a different Greek word and in the context refers, not to physical death, but to spiritual and moral complacency.

https://bible.org/question/soul-sleep’-biblical-when-we-die-do-we-go-heaven-immediately-or-second-coming

bravo brother. I agree. There are references to the third heaven and so forth, and what i think is that the second heaven consists of our 'heavens', the sky, space and the natural universe. This is where the enemy lives and has his base of operations. The third heaven is where the flesh dead believers go which are saved, to be with the Lord. it is not Gods dwelling place however, more along the lines of...His office. His base of operations, but not the true heaven, where only transfigured believers will go when the final day comes. In this way, believers can go to be with the Lord, and even people on earth are sometimes taken up in the spirit, or through a near death experience to receive visions or messages. All of these testimonies of these people, some who even say they have met spiritual giants from biblical days, or passed on relatives. They never describe these encounters where the people are transfigured (spiritual bodies), but looking normal as they did on earth in the flesh.

Because all will receive the transfiguration into their new spiritual bodies at the same time on the great day. None will precede the others.
 
First, tell me what you believe are the component parts of the soul. Wouldn't the person's spirit be a part of his soul.

I don't think it is. We have three components, spirit, soul, body. The spirit belongs to the Lord and giveth life. The soul is our identity comprised of our unique personality and mind. The body is merely a temporary dwelling place, like a tent. I *think* that either the soul or spirit can be dominant. This is where the war within us takes place. The soul wants what it used to (worldly in most cases) and we are to live for the spirit. If we feed our spirit enough, and think on heavenly things always, the soul will be trained over time as we become closer to God and become renewed and more righteous.
 
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