Soul sleep false?

[DRS81]

The third heaven is where the flesh dead believers go which are saved, to be with the Lord. it is not Gods dwelling place however, more along the lines of...His office.

Blessings Edward, thank you for your posts and hi!. What happened to your dogg avatar.

I had actually changed my mind on soul sleep since I posted the OP. Scripture teaches us that believers and nonbelievers alike all sleep in the graves which is Hades until the first resurrection. Rev 20:4-6. Since dead believers are without consciousness in their graves, the time between their death and the first resurrection is that quick. 1 Cor 15:52 describes the first resurrection of the dead believers and then the rapture of living believers following right after, and these events occur when the sixth seal is open in the middle of the great trib..(1 Cor 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.)

 

[Edward]

Blessings Edward, thank you for your posts and hi!. What happened to your dogg avatar.

I had actually changed my mind on soul sleep since I posted the OP. Scripture teaches us that believers and nonbelievers alike all sleep in the graves which is Hades until the first resurrection. Rev 20:4-6. Since dead believers are without consciousness in their graves, the time between their death and the first resurrection is that quick. 1 Cor 15:52 describes the first resurrection of the dead believers and then the rapture of living believers following right after, and these events occur when the sixth seal is open in the middle of the great trib..(1 Cor 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.)

Oh, awhile back everyone started posting pics of themselves for the most part, so i went with the flow so others could see me.

Without consciousness brother? Are you aware that scripture teaches us, that at this moment we are seated with Christ? Now this delves into a little understood aspect of the spiritual realm and how it works...but it has to be true because it is written. So I must assume that our spirits can be at least two different places at once, and conscious is certainly the implication here. Aside from that all of the many many testimonies that I have been reading and watching on youtube, can't all be lying. People have tesified to meeting King David and others, and passed on relatives which are there in the third heaven when they show up. Do we discount ALL of those testimonies. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, I have to believe it, and that there are simply aspects of the spiritual realm that I (we) simply do not understand yet.

 

[DRS81]

Aside from that all of the many many testimonies that I have been reading and watching on youtube, can't all be lying. People have tesified to meeting King David and others, and passed on relatives which are there in the third heaven when they show up. Do we discount ALL of those testimonies. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, I have to believe it, and that there are simply aspects of the spiritual realm that I (we) simply do not understand yet.

The testimonies aren't what's wrong, it's the imagination of christians watching these videos and believing anything they want. Visions of the afterlife are not the same as knowing what happens when you die and not coming back. We cannot receive testimonies of the dead that remain dead because it's simply not possible. I do however believe that Jesus can bless people with visions of the afterlife, but that also is not proof to what actually happens after the dead remain dead..(between death and the first resurrection).

Are you aware that scripture teaches us, that at this moment we are seated with Christ? Now this delves into a little understood aspect of the spiritual realm and how it works...but it has to be true because it is written.

We are seated with Christ in the metaphorical sense, as in his spirit lives in us and our inheritance is waiting for us after death. But (all believers) that are in the grave have to wait until the sixth seal is open and the first resurrection takes place to receive our inheritance. (Dan 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.") Our inheritance is receiving our new resurrected bodies and also our rewards at the Bema Seat. At the first resurrection we will be at the Bema Seat. Believers dying and their spirits going directly to the third heaven is not biblical. They all have to wait until the sixth seal.

 

[Edward]

We are seated with Christ in the metaphorical sense, as in his spirit lives in us and our inheritance is waiting for us after death. But (all believers) that are in the grave have to wait until the sixth seal is open and the first resurrection takes place to receive our inheritance. (Dan 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.") Our inheritance is receiving our new resurrected bodies and also our rewards at the Bema Seat. At the first resurrection we will be at the Bema Seat. Believers dying and their spirits going directly to the third heaven is not biblical. They all have to wait until the sixth seal.

Doesn't scripture say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? The scripture from Daniel that you posted seems a little ambiguous. it doesn't really say that one will rest in the grave, Even the scripture of lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 says that they were in Abrahams bosom and not in the grave. They way the story is written, it is very apparent that the people there were conscious, and had use of their senses, though dead in the flesh. What do we do with that scripture. In Ephesians where it speaks of us being seated with Christ, it does not seem metaphorical to me. In a feeble flesh minded comprehension that we all have, it may seem hard to grasp as literal, but in faith, and a simple trusting that He said what He meant and meant what He said...even devoid of complete understanding of the spiritual realm, I can't say that it is untrue or simply metaphorical.

If we are in Christ, and Christ in us, and are raised up with Him...this does not ring future tense. it rings spiritual. I suppose that considering this as a possibility, the question becomes, where is Christ seated? Certainly not in the grave, brother. He is at the right hand of God. being born again and renewed is something that takes place while we yet live. And being redeemed, our trangressions being blotted out, when the Father looks at us, he sees Christ, for we are in Him, and he, in us. Also, if we are seated with Christ, then this would be...at rest, would it not? It doesn't say sleeping. Eh?

 

[DRS81]

Doesn't scripture say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

Hi Edward. Paul does say that, and how fast will we be in his presence?..in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye 1 Cor 15:52. And this occurs at the first resurrection. The (dead in Christ) are not aware of time, they are without consciousness and know nothing Eccl 9:5. This is why the dead will be in his presence in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye. For example, dying 2,000 years ago and waking up tomorrow at the first resurrection will be in a flash.

Even the scripture of lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 says that they were in Abrahams bosom and not in the grave. They way the story is written, it is very apparent that the people there were conscious, and had use of their senses, though dead in the flesh. What do we do with that scripture. In Ephesians where it speaks of us being seated with Christ, it does not seem metaphorical to me. In a feeble flesh minded comprehension that we all have, it may seem hard to grasp as literal, but in faith, and a simple trusting that He said what He meant and meant what He said...even devoid of complete understanding of the spiritual realm, I can't say that it is untrue or simply metaphorical.

This parable is just that, it's a parable and it is not describing the afterlife between death and the first resurrection as many might see. The word 'Hades' refers to torment only once in the whole entire Bible, and this parable is the only time. All the other times the Bible mentions Hades, it is referring to the grave. Hades is greek for grave, and Sheol is Hebrew for grave.

A parable is a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson. Jesus was rebuking the Jewish leadership and speaking of the kingdom being taken from the Jews. Jesus was drawing on an OT passage that they would be very familiar with. In Deuteronomy there is what is known as the song Moses. The song of Moses speaks of Israel's rebellion against God, in it we find this passage in which Jesus was referring too..Deu 32:16-27 Hades - The word translated (hell) in this passage is Hades. God said a fire is kindled in my anger and shall burn to the lowest Hades. This passage is speaking of Israel's rejection of God, and Jesus is alluding to this, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Deu 32:22 is a metaphor meaning that there is nowhere they can go to escape God's wrath. In other words it is absolutely certain.

If we are in Christ, and Christ in us, and are raised up with Him...this does not ring future tense. it rings spiritual.

You are mentioning two different things here. Yes, when we become born again in the Holy Spirit we become spiritually resurrected and dead to sin (in this life). The future tense speaks about (after) we physically die. After we die, we are resurrected (physically) into new immortal bodies at the sixth seal/first resurrection. Our bodies right now are mortal, because we are all going to die one day. You right now Edward you are mortal, you will die one day and your family will have a funeral for you. You will then rest in the grave until the the sixth seal opens and the first resurrection occurs. Blessed and holy are you Edward that share in the first resurrection Rev 20:6. When you Edward are resurrected after the sixth seal opens, only then will you receive your immortal body. But while you are resting in the grave time will not exist for you, and therefore you will see the Lord in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye.

I suppose that considering this as a possibility, the question becomes, where is Christ seated? Certainly not in the grave, brother. He is at the right hand of God. being born again and renewed is something that takes place while we yet live. And being redeemed, our trangressions being blotted out, when the Father looks at us, he sees Christ, for we are in Him, and he, in us. Also, if we are seated with Christ, then this would be...at rest, would it not? It doesn't say sleeping. Eh?

Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father in the third heaven (right now). Jesus is alive in the third heaven (right now). This third heaven is used for the works of salvation and judgment ONLY. Spirits of believers will not enter (physically) into this third heaven, just as nonbelievers will not go to a hell that Hollywood designed in the movies. Yes born again takes place while we are yet alive right now, but the afterlife is completely different. Resting is sleeping, and the word (sleep or asleep or sleeping) is mention 20 times in the Bible. Edward will be sleeping and resting in his grave. - DRS81

 

[agua.]

Doesn't scripture say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? The scripture from Daniel that you posted seems a little ambiguous. it doesn't really say that one will rest in the grave, Even the scripture of lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 says that they were in Abrahams bosom and not in the grave. They way the story is written, it is very apparent that the people there were conscious, and had use of their senses, though dead in the flesh. What do we do with that scripture. In Ephesians where it speaks of us being seated with Christ, it does not seem metaphorical to me. In a feeble flesh minded comprehension that we all have, it may seem hard to grasp as literal, but in faith, and a simple trusting that He said what He meant and meant what He said...even devoid of complete understanding of the spiritual realm, I can't say that it is untrue or simply metaphorical.

If we are in Christ, and Christ in us, and are raised up with Him...this does not ring future tense. it rings spiritual. I suppose that considering this as a possibility, the question becomes, where is Christ seated? Certainly not in the grave, brother. He is at the right hand of God. being born again and renewed is something that takes place while we yet live. And being redeemed, our trangressions being blotted out, when the Father looks at us, he sees Christ, for we are in Him, and he, in us. Also, if we are seated with Christ, then this would be...at rest, would it not? It doesn't say sleeping. Eh?

Doesn't scripture say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

This is a common thing people say but look at the passage.

2Co 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul isn't saying being absent from the body is being present with the Lord but that he would prefer to be with the Lord basically. I think we all would prefer that.

 

[JLB]

DRS81 said -

Hi Edward. Paul does say that, and how fast will we be in his presence?..in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye 1 Cor 15:52. And this occurs at the first resurrection. The (dead in Christ) are not aware of time, they are without consciousness and know nothing Eccl 9:5. This is why the dead will be in his presence in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye. For example, dying 2,000 years ago and waking up tomorrow at the first resurrection will be in a flash.

As soon as you are absent from the body at death, you are present with the Lord.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

When the body dies, the spirit departs the body and is present with the Lord.

Your doctrine, however, claims the spirit remains in the body at death, and continues to remain there in the grave.

This is not what scripture teaches.

The spirit leaves the body at death.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

That is why we can say with Paul, that God will bring with Jesus those who are in Christ when He comes.

The spirits of just men will return with the Lord from heaven to earth, at His Coming.

They return with Him, because they are indeed with Him in heaven.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

• These saints will return with Jesus from heaven, where they are now, to earth at His coming.

3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:3-5

• These saints will return with Jesus from heaven, where they are now, to earth at His coming.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

• The saints are in heaven and will be gathered and return with Jesus from heaven to earth, as His army.

This is what John was shown in Revelation -

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.,.for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints Revelation 19:11-14


This is what Isaiah prophesied about, The Day of The Lord -

3 I have commanded My sanctified ones; I have also called My mighty ones for My anger-- Those who rejoice in My exaltation." 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, Like that of many people! A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together! The Lord of hosts musters The army for battle. 5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven-- The Lord and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land. 6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt, 8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Isaiah 13:3-11


Jesus said His people will be gathered from Heaven, to return with Him.

Paul said God will bring with Jesus, those who are His at His coming.

Isaiah prophesied of the army that will come from Heaven with the Lord on that day.

Zechariah foretold of the saints that will come with the Lord from Heaven on that Day.

John foresaw the armies of the Lord clothed in fine linen returning from heaven with the Lord for the great battle when the Lord return from Heaven with His people and will strike the nations in His vengeance.




JLB

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward. Paul does say that, and how fast will we be in his presence?..in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye 1 Cor 15:52. And this occurs at the first resurrection. The (dead in Christ) are not aware of time, they are without consciousness and know nothing Eccl 9:5. This is why the dead will be in his presence in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye. For example, dying 2,000 years ago and waking up tomorrow at the first resurrection will be in a flash.
(Hmmm. Could the dead referred to in Ecc 9:5 refer to non-believers who died. Along the lines of, let the dead bury the dead.)



This parable is just that, it's a parable and it is not describing the afterlife between death and the first resurrection as many might see. The word 'Hades' refers to torment only once in the whole entire Bible, and this parable is the only time. All the other times the Bible mentions Hades, it is referring to the grave. Hades is greek for grave, and Sheol is Hebrew for grave.

A parable is a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson. Jesus was rebuking the Jewish leadership and speaking of the kingdom being taken from the Jews. Jesus was drawing on an OT passage that they would be very familiar with. In Deuteronomy there is what is known as the song Moses. The song of Moses speaks of Israel's rebellion against God, in it we find this passage in which Jesus was referring too..Deu 32:16-27 Hades - The word translated (hell) in this passage is Hades. God said a fire is kindled in my anger and shall burn to the lowest Hades. This passage is speaking of Israel's rejection of God, and Jesus is alluding to this, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Deu 32:22 is a metaphor meaning that there is nowhere they can go to escape God's wrath. In other words it is absolutely certain.
(My dear brother, I am going to disagree here and say that this is not a parable. In the many parables given by Jesus in the NT, specific names are not used. I think that makes a difference!)



You are mentioning two different things here. Yes, when we become born again in the Holy Spirit we become spiritually resurrected and dead to sin (in this life). The future tense speaks about (after) we physically die. After we die, we are resurrected (physically) into new immortal bodies at the sixth seal/first resurrection. Our bodies right now are mortal, because we are all going to die one day. You right now Edward you are mortal, you will die one day and your family will have a funeral for you. You will then rest in the grave until the the sixth seal opens and the first resurrection occurs. Blessed and holy are you Edward that share in the first resurrection Rev 20:6. When you Edward are resurrected after the sixth seal opens, only then will you receive your immortal body. But while you are resting in the grave time will not exist for you, and therefore you will see the Lord in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye.
(I am going to continue to ponder and pray about this. I have been known to be wrong before, lol. It's a good thing this issue is non salvific!)



Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father in the third heaven (right now). Jesus is alive in the third heaven (right now). This third heaven is used for the works of salvation and judgment ONLY. Spirits of believers will not enter (physically) into this third heaven, just as nonbelievers will not go to a hell that Hollywood designed in the movies. Yes born again takes place while we are yet alive right now, but the afterlife is completely different. Resting is sleeping, and the word (sleep or asleep or sleeping) is mention 20 times in the Bible. Edward will be sleeping and resting in his grave. -
(I agree with at least most of this, though I think you may have made a typo? Spirits can enter into the third Heaven, but Physical bodies do not. I think that's what you meant. Even Paul, in scripture speaks of the third Heaven, In 2 Corinthians 12:2-3 he speaks of it.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)/

So Paul wasn't sure if it was physically or in the Spirit at that time, but I think that now (with all of the NDE testimonies we do know) that it is in the Spirit only...I *think* lol...and if these people come back and say they have met their dead relatives there...I think that we should keep an open mind about it.)
DRS81

Expand your quote to see my answers to your different paragraphs in bold ok brother? Good discussion!

 

[Edward]

As soon as you are absent from the body at death, you are present with the Lord.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

When the body dies, the spirit departs the body and is present with the Lord.

Your doctrine, however, claims the spirit remains in the body at death, and continues to remain there in the grave.

This is not what scripture teaches.

The spirit leaves the body at death.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

That is why we can say with Paul, that God will bring with Jesus those who are in Christ when He comes.

The spirits of just men will return with the Lord from heaven to earth, at His Coming.

They return with Him, because they are indeed with Him in heaven.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

• These saints will return with Jesus from heaven, where they are now, to earth at His coming.

3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:3-5

• These saints will return with Jesus from heaven, where they are now, to earth at His coming.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

• The saints are in heaven and will be gathered and return with Jesus from heaven to earth, as His army.

This is what John was shown in Revelation -

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.,.for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints Revelation 19:11-14


This is what Isaiah prophesied about, The Day of The Lord -

3 I have commanded My sanctified ones; I have also called My mighty ones for My anger-- Those who rejoice in My exaltation." 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, Like that of many people! A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together! The Lord of hosts musters The army for battle. 5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven-- The Lord and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land. 6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt, 8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Isaiah 13:3-11


Jesus said His people will be gathered from Heaven, to return with Him.

Paul said God will bring with Jesus, those who are His at His coming.

Isaiah prophesied of the army that will come from Heaven with the Lord on that day.

Zechariah foretold of the saints that will come with the Lord from Heaven on that Day.

John foresaw the armies of the Lord clothed in fine linen returning from heaven with the Lord for the great battle when the Lord return from Heaven with His people and will strike the nations in His vengeance.




JLB

Whoa. That's a lot of good scriptures there, brother!

 

[jeff77]

I noticed several mentioned that for soul sleep to be true the soul would have to be asleep with the body in the grave. I thought the souls are in heaven with Jesus but are they awake?

 

[DRS81]

As soon as you are absent from the body at death, you are present with the Lord.

1 Thess 4:14 is speaking about those who sleep in the grave
Zech 14:3-5 is speaking about the saints returning at the first resurrection
Matt 24:29-31 is not speaking about the third heaven, it is referring to the first heaven on earth, the world.
Revelation 19:11-14 is speaking about the armies in heaven, not the saints. Fine linen/white and clean simply describes (purity) of the saints.
Isaiah 13:3-11 is not speaking about the third heaven, it is referring to the first heaven on earth, the world.

Expand your quote to see my answers to your different paragraphs in bold ok brother? Good discussion!

1. Ecc 9:5 is speaking about believers and nonbelievers that are dead, everybody.
2. Luke 16:19-31 is definitely a parable Edward. The book of Luke is filled with them.
3. Notice that in 2 Corinthians 12:2-3, he is caught up to receive instructions and visions. The man did not die and live there and dwell there. (2 Cor 12:1 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.)

 

[agua.]

I noticed several mentioned that for soul sleep to be true the soul would have to be asleep with the body in the grave. I thought the souls are in heaven with Jesus but are they awake?

Soul = Body + spirit

Gen 2:7 KJV And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When the Soul dies the body returns to dust. ( yes a soul dies Eze 18:4 KJV Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. )


Gen 3:19 KJV In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The spirit returns to Yahweh.

Ecc 12:6-7 KJV Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. (7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[jeff77]

Soul = Body + spirit

Gen 2:7 KJV And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When the Soul dies the body returns to dust. ( yes a soul dies Eze 18:4 KJV Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. )


Gen 3:19 KJV In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The spirit returns to Yahweh.

Ecc 12:6-7 KJV Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. (7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ok, I understand Soul = Body + Spirit and our bodies return to the dust. So our bodies returning to the dust = in the grave?

I noticed you said "The Spirit returns to Yahweh". Does "The Spirit" have anything about it that is unique to the individual?

Romans 8:16 indicates to me that we must have something about us other than the body that is unique. If The Spirit in this verse = the Holy Spirit, then "Our Spirit" must be a unique one. Also this indicates to me that we do have a part of us that lives on after we die.

 

[agua.]

Ok, I understand Soul = Body + Spirit and our bodies return to the dust. So our bodies returning to the dust = in the grave?

I noticed you said "The Spirit returns to Yahweh". Does "The Spirit" have anything about it that is unique to the individual?

Romans 8:16 indicates to me that we must have something about us other than the body that is unique. If The Spirit in this verse = the Holy Spirit, then "Our Spirit" must be a unique one. Also this indicates to me that we do have a part of us that lives on after we die.

Yeah I believe there is a uniqueness aside from our body which somehow is connected to the spirit Yahweh gave us. I look at it like this if you don't mind me using an analogy. Think of us as a computer and we have a hardware that can be written on and built up to have heaps of data. Think of this hardware as Yahweh's spirit He gave us. Now if we remove the hardware from the computer the computer has no function until it's returned. The hardware still holds all the data but it's dormant so to speak. In the same way when we die our spirit returns to Yahweh waiting to be reunited with a body at the resurrection. The only reason we like to think the hardware can operate without the computer is because we have been indoctrinated with the immortal hardware idea imo :D

 

[jeff77]

Yeah I believe there is a uniqueness aside from our body which somehow is connected to the spirit Yahweh gave us. I look at it like this if you don't mind me using an analogy. Think of us as a computer and we have a hardware that can be written on and built up to have heaps of data. Think of this hardware as Yahweh's spirit He gave us. Now if we remove the hardware from the computer the computer has no function until it's returned. The hardware still holds all the data but it's dormant so to speak. In the same way when we die our spirit returns to Yahweh waiting to be reunited with a body at the resurrection. The only reason we like to think the hardware can operate without the computer is because we have been indoctrinated with the immortal hardware idea imo :biggrin

Ok, I understand the analogy.

Something else that came to mind that I don't understand is Matt 10:28 where it says fear not the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell. It says destroy both soul which = body + spirit and body which is a part of the soul. It sounds like its saying the body is being destroyed 2 times?

 

[jeff77]

Or I see that it could be saying it that way to indicate that not to fear those who can only destroy the body part of the soul but now all of it is destroyed.

Sorry had to edit 3 times.

 

[JLB]

DRS81 said
1 Thess 4:14 is speaking about those who sleep in the grave

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:14

Jesus returns to earth from heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God.

The saints come with Him from heaven to earth.

The saints are in heaven because they have died, which is why their dead bodies are in the grave.

Zech 14:3-5 is speaking about the saints returning at the first resurrection

Jesus

Matt 24:29-31 is not speaking about the third heaven, it is referring to the first heaven on earth, the world

.

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

The saints are shown to be in heaven and are gathered to return with Jesus.

Revelation 19:11-14 is speaking about the armies in heaven, not the saints. Fine linen/white and clean simply describes (purity) of the saints

.

This scripture shows the saints in heaven returning with Jesus to earth at His Coming.

Isaiah 13:3-11 is not speaking about the third heaven, it is referring to the first heaven on earth, the
world

.

3 I have commanded My sanctified ones; I have also called My mighty ones for My anger-- Those who rejoice in My exaltation." 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, Like that of many people! A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together! The Lord of hosts musters The army for battle. 5They come from a far country, From the end of heaven. Isaiah 13:3-5

The Lords army gathered from heaven to return and fight with Him on the Day of the Lord.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

JLB Hey.

1 Thess 4:14 - Your timeline is off here. The saints come with Him from the grave to the 1000 year reign and then the new earth. "Even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus" should be proof enough of soul sleep.
Zechariah 14:3-5 - I can't tell if this is speaking of past or future. If it's speaking of future, then it's speaking of the first resurrection when the saints will join Him.
Matt 24:29-31 is a rapture scripture and is speaking of the first heaven on earth. Rapture occurs on the earth JLB.
Revelation 19:11-14 - This is a vision from John and is speaking of the destruction of the Antichrist. This occurs after the sixth seal in the great tribulation. The saints will be resurrected at the first resurrection and join God's army (after the sixth seal).
Isaiah 13:3-11 When it says, the end of Heaven, he's more than likely speaking about the angels in heaven or the first heaven here on earth

Scripture teaches us there is a first heaven, second heaven and third heaven. Different scriptures are speaking of different heavens, and you've taken all these scriptures out of context. And that kind of upsets me a little bit.

 

[Edward]

I noticed several mentioned that for soul sleep to be true the soul would have to be asleep with the body in the grave. I thought the souls are in heaven with Jesus but are they awake?

I believe they are.

 

[JLB]

JLB Hey.

1 Thess 4:14 - Your timeline is off here. The saints come with Him from the grave to the 1000 year reign and then the new earth. "Even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus" should be proof enough of soul sleep.

Jesus comes from Heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God.

The saints who are in Heaven come WITH HIM.

This is the Second coming at the Resurrection/Rapture.

The saints come with Him.

Zechariah 14:3-5 - I can't tell if this is speaking of past or future. If it's speaking of future, then it's speaking of the first resurrection when the saints will join Him.

This is future when Jesus Comes at the end of the age.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Jesus Comes at the end of the age to Gather His people for the Resurrection/Rapture.

He gathers them from Heaven.

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The saints are in heaven in order to be gathered from heaven.

This event is when He appears a second time.

Matt 24:29-31 is a rapture scripture and is speaking of the first heaven on earth. Rapture occurs on the earth JLB.

The Day of the Lord! The resurrection of the dead.

Jesus Christ returns from Heaven where he is seated at the right hand of God!

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

Jesus is in Heaven!

The saints are in Heaven!

They return with Jesus from Heaven to Earth.

Jesus also gathers the saints that are on earth, who are alive and remain. This is the Rapture.


27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

Heaven: where the saints are who have died.
Earth: where the saints are gathered who are alive and remain until the Coming of the Lord.

Revelation 19:11-14 - This is a vision from John and is speaking of the destruction of the Antichrist. This occurs after the sixth seal in the great tribulation. The saints will be resurrected at the first resurrection and join God's army (after the sixth seal).

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

the armies in heaven followed Him on white horses.

These who are in Heaven return with Jesus at the Second Coming, as they themselves follow Him of white horses.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time...

Isaiah 13:3-11 When it says, the end of Heaven, he's more than likely speaking about the angels in heaven or the first heaven here on earth

Scripture teaches us there is a first heaven, second heaven and third heaven. Different scriptures are speaking of different heavens, and you've taken all these scriptures out of context. And that kind of upsets me a little bit.

Isaiah is a reference to the day of the Lord.

5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven-- The Lord and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land. 6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt, 8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. Isaiah 13:5-10

Jesus quotes this for us in Matthew 24 -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Jesus is in Heaven seated at the right hand of God.

Jesus will gather His saints from one end of Heaven to the other.

The saints are in Heaven!

Matthew 24 and Isaiah 13 are the same event!

The Day of the Lord.



JLB