Soul sleep false?

[DRS81]

Isaiah is a reference to the day of the Lord.

5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven-- The Lord and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land. 6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt, 8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. Isaiah 13:5-10

Jesus quotes this for us in Matthew 24 -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Jesus is in Heaven seated at the right hand of God.

Jesus will gather His saints from one end of Heaven to the other.

The saints are in Heaven!

Matthew 24 and Isaiah 13 are the same event!

The Day of the Lord.

Hi JLB, are you knowledgeable on regards to the (first heaven, second heaven and third heaven) and the difference between the three. Blessings.

 

[DRS81]

JLB

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB, are you knowledgeable on regards to the (first heaven, second heaven and third heaven) and the difference between the three. Blessings.

Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God.

Let's take the scriptures I quoted and examine them one at a time and determine which heaven is being referred to.

Whether first heaven, second heaven or third heaven.

JLB

 

[DRS81]

Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God.

Let's take the scriptures I quoted and examine them one at a time and determine which heaven is being referred to.

Whether first heaven, second heaven or third heaven.

JLB

Very good. Matt 24:31 is a really good example of the first heaven. Keep in mind that scripture never comes out and says first, second or third so we have to discern which one it is. This scripture is speaking about the rapture of the church which occurs at the first resurrection. Heaven here is describing the first heaven, the earth's atmosphere. The rapture is on earth, and the Lord will be gathering born again christians from all over the world up in the air with Him. (Matt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.)

1. First Heaven - Earths Atmosphere, which is the immediate sky
2. Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens
3. Third Heaven - Where God and His angels dwell

 

[JLB]

Very good. Matt 24:31 is a really good example of the first heaven. Keep in mind that scripture never comes out and says first, second or third so we have to discern which one it is. This scripture is speaking about the rapture of the church which occurs at the first resurrection. Heaven here is describing the first heaven, the earth's atmosphere. The rapture is on earth, and the Lord will be gathering born again christians from all over the world up in the air with Him. (Matt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.)

1. First Heaven - Earths Atmosphere, which is the immediate sky
2. Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens
3. Third Heaven - Where God and His angels dwell

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:28

Earth - First Heaven

Heaven - Third Heaven

According to your definition the saints are Gathered from heaven as the return with Jesus to earth to gather those saints forthw Rapture.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

According to your definition the saints are Gathered from heaven as the return with Jesus to earth to gather those saints forthw Rapture.

No JLB. Heaven here in Matt 24:31 is a metaphor for the first heaven. Matt 24:31 is speaking of the first heaven, from all around the world. The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere and sky. When rapture occurs Jesus comes down into the first heaven/the sky and gathers all his people dead and alive from around the world, the first heaven.

 

[JLB]

No JLB. Heaven here in Matt 24:31 is a metaphor for the first heaven. Matt 24:31 is speaking of the first heaven, from all around the world. The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere and sky. When rapture occurs Jesus comes down into the first heaven/the sky and gathers all his people dead and alive from around the world, the first heaven.

No?

Both heaven and earth are clearly referenced in this scripture.

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth tothe farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:28
Earth - First Heaven

Heaven - Third Heaven

This is your definition.

Both heaven and earth are contrasted here.

Are you saying heaven means "earth", and earth means "earth"?


Jesus returns from heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God. That to me is heaven, the third heaven.

Now the scripture says God will bring with Him those who sleep (died).

With Him indicates the saints who have died come WITH HIM.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

No?

Both heaven and earth are clearly referenced in this scripture.

The first heaven my friend, they are speaking of the first heaven. They are not speaking of the third heaven.

 

[JLB]

The first heaven my friend, they are speaking of the first heaven. They are not speaking of the third heaven.

How could it refer to only the first heaven when both heaven and earth are mentioned in the same verse?

Do you believe Jesus Comes from heaven, where He is seated at the right hand of God?

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:27

Sorry Bro, earth means earth, heaven means heaven.

Please show a scripture that has the phrase first heaven in it that refers to the earth.

JLB

 

[Butch5]

How could it refer to only the first heaven when both heaven and earth are mentioned in the same verse?

Do you believe Jesus Comes from heaven, where He is seated at the right hand of God?

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:27

Sorry Bro, earth means earth, heaven means heaven.

Please show a scripture that has the phrase first heaven in it that refers to the earth.

JLB

Hi JLB,

Earth doesn't mean planet earth, it means land, it is the dry land. Earth is contrasted with heaven, the sky.

waters."
7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
(Gen 1:6-10 NKJ)

 

[DRS81]

How could it refer to only the first heaven when both heaven and earth are mentioned in the same verse?

Do you believe Jesus Comes from heaven, where He is seated at the right hand of God?

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:27

Sorry Bro, earth means earth, heaven means heaven.

Please show a scripture that has the phrase first heaven in it that refers to the earth.

JLB

Hi JLB. Sorry I took so long.

I believe they're using heaven here as a metaphor for sky and earth, the first heaven. (Matt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.) Don't let translations trip you up. Matt 24:31 is not saying that the Lord upon rapture is gathering the spirits in heaven along with those on earth. No. This is a rapture scripture. It is saying the Lord will come down in the clouds to the first heaven and gather all born again christians in the rapture, (the dead that are in the grave and the one's who are still alive at this point. Heaven is a metaphor for "one end of the earth to the other". Blessings my friend, let me know your thoughts.

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/matthew-lbw.htm - v31 He will cause a loud *trumpet to sound and he will send out his servants from heaven. They will gather together the people that he has chosen. They will bring them from one end of the earth to the other.’

http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp130.htm

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB. Sorry I took so long.

I believe they're using heaven here as a metaphor for sky and earth, the first heaven. (Matt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.) Don't let translations trip you up. Matt 24:31 is not saying that the Lord upon rapture is gathering the spirits in heaven along with those on earth. No. This is a rapture scripture. It is saying the Lord will come down in the clouds to the first heaven and gather all born again christians in the rapture, (the dead that are in the grave and the one's who are still alive at this point. Heaven is a metaphor for "one end of the earth to the other". Blessings my friend, let me know your thoughts.

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/matthew-lbw.htm - v31 He will cause a loud *trumpet to sound and he will send out his servants from heaven. They will gather together the people that he has chosen. They will bring them from one end of the earth to the other.’

http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp130.htm

Sorry Brother, but the scripture is clear.

Jesus comes from Heaven.

His saints come with Him from Heaven.

They come to earth where those who are alive and remain are Gathered at the rapture, after those who are resurrected from the dead.


And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27


Mark's Gospel plainly records the saints being gathered from heaven as contrasted from the saints who are gathered from earth.

Paul writes for us of this same event and explains -

The saints are brought with Jesus from Heaven to earth.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

and again -

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. Zechariah 14:4-7

and again -

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:11-14


The saints are brought with Jesus from Heaven to earth at the resurrection and rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

The saints are shown to come with the Lord when returns and His feet touch down on the mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:5

The saints are shown to come with Jesus from heaven and follow Him into battle as He returns from Heaven to exact the vengeance of God upon the nations. Revelation 19:14

The saints are gathered from BOTH Heaven and Earth when He returns at the resurrection and rapture. Mark 13:27


These are a picture of the same event, as The Lord comes once on the last Day to gather His people fro the Resurrection/Rapture.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Sorry Brother, but the scripture is clear.

Jesus comes from Heaven.

His saints come with Him from Heaven.

They come to earth where those who are alive and remain are Gathered at the rapture, after those who are resurrected from the dead.


And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

I'd have to disagree. Take a look at the scripture again Matt 24:31. God's angels are gathering his elect. From where, where is his elect dwelling? His elect is dwelling on earth or in the grave from one end of the earth to the other. Why? Because rapture occurs on earth. Again, this is a rapture scripture. It's not saying God is gathering his spirits from the third heaven. No one will ever be in the third heaven. The third heaven is reserved for God and his angels only. For example, the word rapture means to be (caught up). How can you be caught up if you're already up in the third heaven to begin with.

 

[Stan1953]

For those who haven't made up their minds or are open.

http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201203/201203_086_Hell_forever.cfm

 

[agua.]

Here's a very good synopsis of Hell imo

http://biblelight.net/hell.htm

 

[JLB]

I'd have to disagree. Take a look at the scripture again Matt 24:31. God's angels are gathering his elect. From where, where is his elect dwelling? His elect is dwelling on earth or in the grave from one end of the earth to the other. Why? Because rapture occurs on earth. Again, this is a rapture scripture. It's not saying God is gathering his spirits from the third heaven. No one will ever be in the third heaven. The third heaven is reserved for God and his angels only. For example, the word rapture means to be (caught up). How can you be caught up if you're already up in the third heaven to begin with.

This verse is Jesus teaching about His Coming from heaven with His saints at the resurrection.

The Resurrection takes place before the Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

The verse clearly and plainly says the angels are gathering the elect from Heaven.

The saints who have died and are in Heaven, and return with the Lord to earth at the resurrection.

The Rapture also happens at His Coming, but after the resurrection.

The saints Come with Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14, Zechariah 14:5, Revelation 19:14

Mark 13:27 describes the gathering of the saints from both Heaven [saints who have died and return with Jesus at the resurrection] and Earth [ saints who are gathered at the rapture]

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

Saints who have died from heaven, saints who are alive and remain from earth.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Can you see this? The saints who are alive will be caught up to be with them, the saints who have come from Heaven with Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

Two separate and distinct groups of people who are in two distinct and separate places coming together to be with the Lord.


JLB

 

[agua.]

This verse is Jesus teaching about His Coming from heaven with His saints at the resurrection.

The Resurrection takes place before the Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

The verse clearly and plainly says the angels are gathering the elect from Heaven.

The saints who have died and are in Heaven, and return with the Lord to earth at the resurrection.

The Rapture also happens at His Coming, but after the resurrection.

The saints Come with Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14, Zechariah 14:5, Revelation 19:14

Mark 13:27 describes the gathering of the saints from both Heaven [saints who have died and return with Jesus at the resurrection] and Earth [ saints who are gathered at the rapture]

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

Saints who have died from heaven, saints who are alive and remain from earth.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Can you see this? The saints who are alive will be caught up to be with them, the saints who have come from Heaven with Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

Two separate and distinct groups of people who are in two distinct and separate places coming together to be with the Lord.


JLB

Hi JLB,

The Saints who Jesus brings with Him at the first resurrection are those who sleep in Christ. ie. dead Saints. These dead Saints are resurrected ( brought back to life ) as a new critter and will join with the alive Saints who will be transformed into the new critter.

1Co 15:51-53 KJV Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,

The Saints who Jesus brings with Him at the first resurrection are those who sleep in Christ. ie. dead Saints. These dead Saints are resurrected ( brought back to life ) as a new critter and will join with the alive Saints who will be transformed into the new critter.

1Co 15:51-53 KJV Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The Saints who Jesus brings with Him at the first resurrection are those who sleep in Christ. ie. dead Saints

Yes, they are in Heaven with Jesus.

For God will bring WITH HIM...

When Jesus comes from Heaven to earth the saints will come WITH HIM!

The reason they come with Him is because they are in heaven with Him.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

and again - The day of the Lord

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:4-5

And all the saints with You.

The Lord my God will Come and all the saints with you. Zechariah 14:5

God will bring with Him those who sleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27


Brother, how can you dismiss these clear references to the saints coming with Jesus from Heaven to earth?

Please consider these scriptures and what is clearly being said.


JLB

 

[agua.]

The Saints who Jesus brings with Him at the first resurrection are those who sleep in Christ. ie. dead Saints

Yes, they are in Heaven with Jesus.

For God will bring WITH HIM...

When Jesus comes from Heaven to earth the saints will come WITH HIM!

The reason they come with Him is because they are in heaven with Him.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

and again - The day of the Lord

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:4-5

And all the saints with You.

The Lord my God will Come and all the saints with you. Zechariah 14:5

God will bring with Him those who sleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27


Brother, how can you dismiss these clear references to the saints coming with Jesus from Heaven to earth?

Please consider these scriptures and what is clearly being said.

JLB

As per usual JLB I don't dismiss what the scripture clearly says but only your interpretation of it.

Can you post the scripture which says "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Ta.

 

[Edward]

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

Seems pretty clear to me. Bring with him means, bring with him. I don't know how it could mean anything else. There may be questions about exactly when the rapture will happen and so forth, but Jesus will bring with him those who sleep in Jesus when he comes. This is so clear that it essentially answers the whole question of the thread. Next question please...lol

Good morning to you all brothers and sisters!

For those of you who question this soul sleep thing and think that the soul sleeps in the grave until the day of the Lord...I ask you, what does this above scripture tell us then. We have to have context from the entire bible and this is telling us something, so if our souls are sleeping in the grave, what is this talking about? Who is Jesus bringing with Him?