• CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • CFN welcomes new contributing members!

    Please welcome Roberto and Julia to our family

    Blessings in Christ, and hope you stay awhile!

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

    Read daily articles from Focus on the Family in the Marriage and Parenting Resources forum.

Soul sleep false?

Edward said:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

Seems pretty clear to me. Bring with him means, bring with him. I don't know how it could mean anything else. There may be questions about exactly when the rapture will happen and so forth, but Jesus will bring with him those who sleep in Jesus when he comes. This is so clear that it essentially answers the whole question of the thread. Next question please...lol

Good morning to you all brothers and sisters! :)

For those of you who question this soul sleep thing and think that the soul sleeps in the grave until the day of the Lord...I ask you, what does this above scripture tell us then. We have to have context from the entire bible and this is telling us something, so if our souls are sleeping in the grave, what is this talking about? Who is Jesus bringing with Him?
Click to expand...

Good morning Ed.

If you like to use the premise that your understanding is the clear meaning of the passage then I must say I don't really see any point in giving my terp. If you'd like to present your understanding devoid of the rhetoric I might be interested :D
 
agua. said:
Good morning Ed.

If you like to use the premise that your understanding is the clear meaning of the passage then I must say I don't really see any point in giving my terp. If you'd like to present your understanding devoid of the rhetoric I might be interested :biggrin
Click to expand...

I think the interpretation of the passage stands clear. No parable there brother!

Your interp is very important, so by all means say it. If I'm wrong about this passage, then it has to mean something, right? :biggrin
 
Edward said:
I think the interpretation of the passage stands clear. No parable there brother!

Your interp is very important, so by all means say it. If I'm wrong about this passage, then it has to mean something, right? :biggrin
Click to expand...

No Ed if it's clear to you There's no point for me to interupt your understanding. Actually there's really no point in me reading yours either eh :D
 
agua. said:
No Ed if it's clear to you There's no point for me to interupt your understanding. Actually there's really no point in me reading yours either eh :biggrin
Click to expand...

Oh, but wouldn't you want to help set a misguided brother back onto the correct path?
I sure do think the passage is clear, but, as has been shown in the past, I am open minded and am able to set aside pre-conceptions in order to learn and consider other views and see if I was wrong or not.

I changed one of my views this way recently. I thought I knew the truth of a matter that I had believed for years, but by taking another look at it, was able to understand wherein was my mistake and I did comprehend the truth.

So it would be a poor assumption on your part to think that just because I have a belief that I could not take an honest look at another view! :nono:biggrin
 
Edward said:
Oh, but wouldn't you want to help set a misguided brother back onto the correct path?
I sure do think the passage is clear, but, as has been shown in the past, I am open minded and am able to set aside pre-conceptions in order to learn and consider other views and see if I was wrong or not.

I changed one of my views this way recently. I thought I knew the truth of a matter that I had believed for years, but by taking another look at it, was able to understand wherein was my mistake and I did comprehend the truth.

So it would be a poor assumption on your part to think that just because I have a belief that I could not take an honest look at another view! :nono:biggrin
Click to expand...

So far I don't see that Ed. Maybe if you start posting positional beliefs rather than personal feelings I'll change my mind. After all what's the benefit of 2 or more parties saying their terp is the clear meaning of scripture that's just makes us all look like dills. But then that's just my assumption maybe I'm wrong :D
 
agua. said:
As per usual JLB I don't dismiss what the scripture clearly says but only your interpretation of it.

Can you post the scripture which says "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Ta.
Click to expand...

Can you comment on the scriptures that I posted here that clearly show Jesus Coming with the saints.

Let's discuss what these scriptures say.

Dialog Brother, remember?

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:4-5

And all the saints with You.

The Lord my God will Come and all the saints with you. Zechariah 14:5

God will bring with Him those who sleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

When Jesus comes from Heaven to earth the saints will come WITH HIM!

The reason they come with Him is because they are in heaven with Him.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,

God will bring with Him...


JLB
 
JLB said:
Can you comment on the scriptures that I posted here that clearly show Jesus Coming with the saints.

Let's discuss what these scriptures say.

Dialog Brother, remember?

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:4-5

And all the saints with You.

The Lord my God will Come and all the saints with you. Zechariah 14:5

God will bring with Him those who sleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

When Jesus comes from Heaven to earth the saints will come WITH HIM!

The reason they come with Him is because they are in heaven with Him.


JLB
Click to expand...

No thanks JLB I'm over the rhetoric. We no longer have a diaologue :D
 
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6

While in the body we are absent from the Lord.

Paul teaches the contrast by saying -

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

When a believer in Christ dies and leaves his body he is present with the Lord! :boing:clap:wave2:woot2:salute:biggrin2

Amen! Can't wait!


JLB
 
agua. said:
Ta :biggrin Sarcasm goes well with your rhetoric btw.
Click to expand...

Bowing out of a possible Rhetoric scenario is a smart move, so as not to continue the rhetoric if that is what you truly believe.

I don't see it as rhetoric, myself, but two brothers discussing the scriptures.

God Bless you my Friend.

I Love you in spite of our different views.


JLB
 
agua. said:
So far I don't see that Ed. Maybe if you start posting positional beliefs rather than personal feelings I'll change my mind. After all what's the benefit of 2 or more parties saying their terp is the clear meaning of scripture that's just makes us all look like dills. But then that's just my assumption maybe I'm wrong :biggrin
Click to expand...

Mine's not a positional belief brother. it says He will bring them with Him. That's a comprehensional belief. I comprehend what it says in black and white! :)

Like if it said the dog ran down the street. What else could it mean? The dog ran down the street.
God will bring with Him those who sleep.
What else could it mean?

:chin
 
JLB said:
The Resurrection takes place before the Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
Click to expand...

Correct, the first resurrection takes place before the rapture, probably seconds or minutes apart.

JLB said:
This verse is Jesus teaching about His Coming from heaven with His saints at the resurrection.
Click to expand...

The correct way to say this sentence is, (Matt 24:31 This verse is Jesus teaching about his coming from the (third) heaven to gather his saints at the first resurrection here on earth and in the grave. He's not coming (with) his saints because nobody is in the third heaven but Jesus, he's (gathering them from the earth and the grave). Where is he gathering them, from one end of the earth to the other, which is the first heaven. The saints are not with Him UNTIL He gathers them first. (Matt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will GATHER his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.)

JLB said:
The verse clearly and plainly says the angels are gathering the elect from Heaven.
Click to expand...

The first heaven, not the third heaven. The rapture occurs in the first heaven. He's gathering his elect in the first heaven, on earth.
 
DRS81 said:
Correct, the first resurrection takes place before the rapture, probably seconds or minutes apart.
Click to expand...

I never heard that there is more than one resurrection. Where is that found?
 
jeff77 said:
I never heard that there is more than one resurrection. Where is that found?
Click to expand...

There isn't. There's just one resurrection. After resurrection of dead believers, the Lord will gather his elect which is the rapture. The resurrection is the resurrection, the rapture is the gathering.
 
JLB said:
Bowing out of a possible Rhetoric scenario is a smart move, so as not to continue the rhetoric if that is what you truly believe.

I don't see it as rhetoric, myself, but two brothers discussing the scriptures.

God Bless you my Friend.

I Love you in spite of our different views.


JLB
Click to expand...

Ta JLB. I've been re reading quite a few of the posts on this subject and I think we have different understandings of what rhetoric means. That's ok it's obviously time for me to let these types of discussions alone. I love you to Brother whoever you are.

Edward said:
Mine's not a positional belief brother. it says He will bring them with Him. That's a comprehensional belief. I comprehend what it says in black and white! :)

Like if it said the dog ran down the street. What else could it mean? The dog ran down the street.
God will bring with Him those who sleep.
What else could it mean?

:chin
Click to expand...

Comprehension only necessitates presenting the data but as I said to JLB above it's time to leave these type of discussions alone for me. God Bless Brother whoever you are :D.
 
DRS81 said:
Correct, the first resurrection takes place before the rapture, probably seconds or minutes apart.



The correct way to say this sentence is, (Matt 24:31 This verse is Jesus teaching about his coming from the (third) heaven to gather his saints at the first resurrection here on earth and in the grave. He's not coming (with) his saints because nobody is in the third heaven but Jesus, he's (gathering them from the earth and the grave). Where is he gathering them, from one end of the earth to the other, which is the first heaven. The saints are not with Him UNTIL He gathers them first. (Matt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will GATHER his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.)



The first heaven, not the third heaven. The rapture occurs in the first heaven. He's gathering his elect in the first heaven, on earth.
Click to expand...

Jesus cones from Heaven with the saints, as the many scriptures I have posted teach.

If you are teaching that Heaven really means earth, then you yourself have changed the bible.

Please show us a scripture that states the first heaven is a reference to earth.

Please show a scripture that uses the phrase " first heaven".

Jesus comes from heaven, and His saints come with Him!

Nothing you can say will change that!

JLB
 
DRS81 said:
Why would Jesus need to gather his saints if they're already with him to begin with. (with/come with?)
Click to expand...

The scripture says - He gathers His people from Heaven and from earth.

He gathers His people from Heaven to return with Him to earth where He gathers those who are alive and remain after the dead in Christ rise first.

The dead bodies are resurrected and the spirits of those who have died receive their resurrected bodies.

All will be with The Lord.
 
JLB said:
He gathers His people from Heaven to return with Him to earth where He gathers those who are alive and remain after the dead in Christ rise first.
Click to expand...

JLB, you are so close I can taste it. Why is he gathering his people from heaven?? His people are on earth and in the grave!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top