Soul Sleep yes or no?

[reddogs]

Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies, his soul "sleeps" or the denial of man's conscious existence between when he dies and the resurrection day. It's what is called the intermediate state of the believer, in which both the body and the soul lay rest in the ground and the phrase 'soul sleep' appears to have been popularized by John Calvin. In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious till he is made alive at the resurrection by Christ at the Second Coming.

So what does the Bible say at whether you lay in the grave in a non sentient state, awaiting Christ.

Let's look at the story of Lazarus who was raised up from the grave by Christ.
John 11:11-14 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. And then in verse 17 Jesus says of Lazarus: 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he [Lazarus] had lain in the grave four days already.

We see that Jesus equated death to sleep and used the terms interchangeably; and in this story Lazarus has been dead for 4 days. Let's continue:
Verse 43-44: And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Now, Lazarus had been dead for 4 days, if he had in fact gone to heaven (or hell) in any conscious form why is nothing told by Lazarus of this? Lazarus does not come back to life with any stories of where he was, what he saw, or anything. He doesn't talk about walking on streets of gold nor burning with fire. After being resurrected he does speak, and all he says is a simple acknowledgement of who was standing there with Jesus. So lets look at the whole Bible and see what we find.

 

[reddogs]

Lets begin with how the word is used in the Bible:

In Jeremiah 31:26 After this I awoke and looked around, and my sleep was sweet to me. Also in Daniel 2:1 And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
The word used here is shenah corresponding to 8142, now compare:

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The word for sleep here is not the same as one sleeping in everyday use. yashen ( from 3462; sleepy: KJV-- asleep, (one out of) sleep slept.

What does sleep mean in this context? The Bible uses this term when speaking of death. The primary verses we find showing the dead have no thoughts or consciousness are:
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, "For the living know they shall die: but the dead know not any thing," and Ecclesiastes 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." Also Psalm 146:4, "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish". Or Psalm 115:17, "The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence" or Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the grave who shall give Thee thanks? And of course, there is Ezekiel 18:4, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

But in the Old Testament we also find:

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

1 Samuel 3:3 Samuel was laid down to SLEEP;

1 Samuel 28:3 Now SAMUEL was DEAD, and all Israel had lamented him, and BURIED HIM in RAMAH,

Psalm 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

In the book of Job it is stated: "But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he?... So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep... If a man dies, shall he live again?" (Job 14:10,12,14a NKJV)

and also what is happening when we are dead:

Deuteronomy 31:16 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12 - And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

1 Kings 1:21 - Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21 - And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Psalms 13:3 - Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalms 30:9 "What will you gain from my death? What profit from my going to the grave? Are dead people able to praise you? Can they proclaim your unfailing goodness?

Psalms 76:6 - At thy rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the chariot and horse are cast into a dead sleep.

Isaiah 57:2 Those who live good lives find peace and rest in death.

Jeremiah 51:39 - In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:57 - And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt....

 

[reddogs]

Then in the New Testament we see more of the same:
Matthew 9:24 - He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Mark 5:39 - And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luke 8:52 - And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Act 2:31-32 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 7:59 -60 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 13:36 - For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Ephesians 5:14 - Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2 Peter 3:4 - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

And when we will come out of the grave.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Acts 4:2
Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

And what Christ himself tells us will happen to those who have died, the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection of damnation for the wicked.

Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

These text clearly show the soul does not continue on after death or the dead do not float in spirit bodies and dwell in Gods presence. The focus clearly is on resurrection at the Second Coming to eternal life for the believer (and to destruction for the unbeliever).

 

[reddogs]

Now some say but what about what Christ said to the thief on the cross as many cite this as a reason to believe that we go immediately to heaven or hell following death:
Luke 23:42-43 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now we know that Jesus did not go to Paradise after His death that day as He was buried and remained in the tomb until His resurrection. The day of His resurrection He appeared to Mary, stating that He had “not yet ascended to My Father” but that now He was ascending to "My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God”.

John 20:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So did the thief die that day? No.
In fact, the Jews didn't want anyone hanging on the cross during their Sabbath day so the Romans broke the legs of the thief and the other (neither of which had died yet) so that when they took the crosses down they wouldn't run away (John 19:31-33).
And in fact did the thief even ask to be taken to heaven that day? No. The thief knew his theology, what did he ask?
Luke 23:42, 43 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom...

The obvious implication is that He could not have promised the thief that He would be with him in Paradise on Friday. and Jesus and the thief did not die at the same time as Jesus died Friday and the thief was still alive, and his legs were broken to keep him from escaping as it usually took several days for those who were crucified to die. So as after Christ's death the thief was still alive, so what does this text say. Well you have to remember the original text did not have commas, so the translators had to put them in and like 'Easter' in the KJV, relied on their preconceived ideas and in this case it clearly is evident as the facts do not support their placement.

Never has the misplacement of a comma ever caused so much trouble. Remember, neither Greek nor Hebrew contains any form of punctuation nor capitalization, the translators put those in when they translated to English.

 

[reddogs]

Here is a great explanation in answer to some of these questions I came across from one of the brethren..
"Contrary to popular belief, there is no teaching of an immortal soul that leaves the body at death in the Bible at all....that belief was adopted from the Platonic Greeks, not from anything Jesus or the OT scriptures taught.
A "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature....both man and animals are called "souls".

Solomon who gained his Godly wisdom from Jehovah himself, wrote about where the dead go....
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10...
"For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have a reward any longer, for their memory is forgotten.
Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun. . . .
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."

"Sheol" in Hebrew is the equivalent of "Hades" in Greek. So neither place is inhabited by conscious souls. There is no activity, planning, knowledge or wisdom exhibited in the grave, which is what these words mean.
The "spirit" in man is not a separate living entity either, but according to the original language words, the spirit is the breath in our lungs that keeps us breathing. Giving man the "breath of life" is what caused Adam to "become" a "soul"...he was not given one. (Genesis 2:7)

Solomon lamented that humans die the same death as the animals do. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Absent the body, present with the Lord. (Apostle Paul) 2 Corinthians 5:8

This is speaking about the "first resurrection" that is experienced only by the "elect". (Revelation 20:6) These alone are promised life in heaven to rule with Jesus....and like Jesus, they will die in their flesh, but be "made alive in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18)

It is appointed for men to die, then comes the judgment. Hebrews 9:27

"And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

Jesus said that he was going to resurrect all the dead and call them from their graves once the Kingdom is established over the whole earth.
John 5:28-29....
"Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

This was to occur in the future. This is not the "first resurrection" but the general resurrection of the dead, which takes place after Jesus and his elect have taken up their rulership in heaven.
Many of these resurrected ones will have lived at a time when there was no way to get to know God or his Christ.....these will enter into a period of judgment in order to give them a first opportunity at salvation. All will still have free will.

Today you will be with me in paradise. (Jesus to the thief on the cross)

Since Jesus did not go to heaven for 40 days after his resurrection, and he did not promise the thief heaven anyway, we can see that this fits with John 5:28-29 above....the thief will be "with Jesus" in the coming paradise on earth when he is resurrected along with everyone else. He was not a baptized disciple of Christ, but had a change of heart just before he died. Deathbed conversions will not take anyone to heaven because only the "elect" are chosen for a role there. (Revelation 20:6) The dead have paid sin's wages and are in line for life in paradise where God put us in the first place.

The beheaded saints under the altar of God pleading with Him to avenge them. They are not in soul sleep. (Revelation 6:10)

The word "soul" in the Bible can also refer to the life of a person, so these souls (not spirits) represent the martyred lives of the faithful, demanding justice for their murder. They were not alive when John saw them in vision, but remained in their graves until Jesus resurrected them upon his return.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

The story of the rich man and Lazarus. They were conscious after death. Perhaps this parable should not be taken literally, mind, I'm just throwing it out there.

Yes, it is a parable, not meant to be taken literally. Heaven and hell (if there was such a place) would hardly be in speaking distance to one another....and a drop of water was never going to cool anyone down who was existing in flames....the language is all symbolic.

Jesus' friend Lazarus was resurrected, and Jesus also said that "Lazarus was sleeping " and that he was going to "awaken him". (John 11:11-14) So again, the soul (person) sleeps until they are awakened.

What do you think? Please use scripture to justify your position.

There is no such thing as life after death.....the opposite of life is not another kind of life...it is the cessation of life.
Only those empowered by God's Holy Spirit can raise the dead....like Jesus and his apostles. Only God can make a human breathe again, restoring their life in the resurrection to come.".....

 

[reddogs]

...Looking at the original language words in the Bible, we see something very important....something that tells us that Christendom’s adherents have been fed lies about what the “soul” and the “spirit” actually are.

We have to remember that Jesus was Jewish and that the ancient Jews (as opposed to modern day ones) never believed in an immortal soul. For them a “soul” was a living, breathing creature....both humans and animals are called “souls” in Genesis. Both breathe the same air and die the same death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) But only because of Adam’s sin. Humans were not created to die. Sin is what caused death.

At Genesis 2:7 e.g. we read that: “The man came to be a living soul.”...when God breathed “the breath (spirit) of life” into his lungs and started him breathing. Here the word “soul” appears, and it is translated from the Hebrew word “neʹphesh”. This Hebrew word comes from a root meaning “to breathe.” However, it signifies “a living being, an individual, a person.”
So a soul is only alive when it is breathing, once breathing stops, the soul (person) dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

It is also interesting when we compare the words for “spirit” in the languages of the Bible....Hebrew and Greek. Both the Hebrew word (ruʹach) and the Greek word (pneuʹma) basically mean “breath” or “wind.” And the English word “spirit” comes from the Latin spiritus, which means “breath.”

In English we have words like “pneumonia” or “pneumatic” which are taken from these ancient words. These relate to the lungs and to air.

To learn the truth about “soul” and “spirit” we must distinguish between their two different meanings and distinctive applications. That there is a difference is clearly seen in the Bible at Hebrews 4:12, where it says: “For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit.”

How does one divide “soul and spirit” if they believe that they are one and the same thing?

This distinction is also shown at 1 Thessalonians 5:23...
“May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. And may the spirit and soul and body of you brothers, sound in every respect, be preserved blameless at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Many have referred to this verse to prove that humans are made up of three components....body, soul and spirit, but on further investigation regarding the original language words and the context of this statement, we see a very different story.
This verse is speaking metaphorically about the “body” of Christians as a whole, not as individuals. So the body here is the brotherhood....the “soul” is the life they have as a body, and the “spirit” they show would be their firm determination to remain faithful.

Most people take survival of a person after death for granted.⁠...it is assumed that this is what the Bible teaches, but this is not true.....life continuing immediately after death was never a belief held by the ancient Jews. So reasoning and thinking people should not be interested in mere assertions.....they want convincing biblical proof....right?

If death takes us to a better place, why does it feel so wrong? Why do we grieve instead of rejoicing?

What exactly does the Bible say happens to us when we die? What does the Bible tell us directly rather than by suggestion or assertion?

Firstly we can see that man IS a “soul”, not that he possesses one.
And “spirit” is the ‘animator’ that keep us breathing.....the air in our lungs. Why or what mechanism is attached to “breathing” remains a mystery, but we know where that comes from. These are what the original languages reveal, and therefore what Jesus as a Jew, taught. He only had the Hebrew Scriptures.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.”
So the dead “know nothing” and their emotions are also gone...even their love, God’s principle quality given to us.
Solomon then goes on to say in verse 10....
“Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave [sheol] where you are going.”

So right away we have direct statements that show us the condition of the dead.....they are in an unconscious state...they know nothing, can feel nothing, and have lost their ability to do anything.
Psalm 146:4 says...
“His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.”

The soul has died, and the spirit that “goes out” or departs, is the last breath that leaves the lungs.
There is no conscious entity that goes on living. No matter how much we want this to be true, the Bible does not lie....humans do. Satan wants us to believe that we don’t really die.....just as his first lie stated, so he promotes this idea.

The Bible however teaches “resurrection”.....which is not the same thing at all.
Take the example of Lazarus.....his sisters had sent word to Jesus that his friend was gravely ill and Jesus did not get up and immediately go to heal him as he could have, no, but he waited for four days and said to his apostles....
“....Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.

Where was Lazarus before Jesus resurrected him? Did Jesus drag him out of heaven back to this life, only to die again later? No! Because the Jews had faith in the resurrection as Martha revealed.....
John 11:21-24....
“Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

So Martha knew that her brother would “rise in the resurrection on the last day”....(in the future) but Jesus said he was going to bring him back to life there and then. Lazarus was “sleeping” in his tomb, as Jesus had said....he hadn’t gone anywhere.

So you see, “soul sleep” is biblical, but immortality of the soul is not. Only the elect are promised immortality."

 

[Tenchi]

So what does the Bible say at whether you lay in the grave in a non sentient state, awaiting Christ.

Let's look at the story of Lazarus who was raised up from the grave by Christ.
John 11:11-14 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. And then in verse 17 Jesus says of Lazarus: 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he [Lazarus] had lain in the grave four days already.

We see that Jesus equated death to sleep and used the terms interchangeably; and in this story Lazarus has been dead for 4 days.

It is obvious to anyone reading the passage you've cited in a natural, straightforward way that it is the body of Lazarus that is "sleeping." It lays in the grave in a position of repose, unresponsive to, and unaware of, what is going on around it, just like a person who is soundly asleep. Inasmuch as Lazarus was identified by his loved ones and friends by his unique physical form, associated inextricably with his body by them, it would have been perfectly natural for Christ to speak of Lazarus' corpse as Lazarus.

We know, though, that the figurative way Jesus spoke of Lazarus in this instance did not indicate that the soul of Lazarus was sleeping. Christ's own parable of the after-death experience of another Lazarus and a Rich Man deny such an idea:

Luke 16:22-24
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Here, the disembodied souls of two men exist consciously after death, speaking, seeing and feeling things entirely apart from their physical forms. "Ah, but this is a figurative, non-literal parable, an entirely imagined scenario," some with a vested interest in promoting soul sleep will say. Nothing about the parable indicates, though, that it is completely fictional. Why would Jesus, who never used entirely fictional circumstances/objects in any other of his parables to make his points, do so in this one? Why would he alter his usual approach with parables and teach truth by way of what is not true? Why would he tell this story knowing it was all false, that there was no Abraham's Bosom, no tormenting flames of hell? Again, Jesus never used an entirely fictional scenario in any of his other parables, drawing instead from common, everyday life the elements of his parables. And Jesus never hinted in the slightest that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man was entirely imaginary. He doesn't tell his disciples later on that the parable was totally figurative and should be understood as such, explaining to them the symbolism of the story, as he did with some of his other parables. The disciples don't ask for an explanation, either, giving no indication that they understood the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man as imaginary and figurative. In light of all of these things, it is quite proper to take the parable, which defies the idea of soul sleep directly, as communicating the immediate reality of what follows the death of one's body.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Paul here describes a one-or-the-other state of affairs without any intermediate, intervening condition of being (i.e. soul sleep). We are either "at home in the body" or "at home with the Lord"; there is no third "soul sleep" state Paul mentions here. This comports very well with Christ's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Now, Lazarus had been dead for 4 days, if he had in fact gone to heaven (or hell) in any conscious form why is nothing told by Lazarus of this?

Because the story wasn't about Lazarus' experience of the afterlife. It was about Christ and his death-overcoming power:

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

This is the conclusion - and the main point - of the story of Lazarus's resurrection, which is entirely focused upon Jesus and the resurrection life found in him. Adding to this account details of what Lazarus experienced in the afterlife would have diluted, and distracted from, this point significantly. And so, we are given nothing of what Lazarus experienced on the far side of the grave. Besides, we have already been told by Christ what to expect when we die in his parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

 

[Tenchi]

As is always the case with soul sleep advocates, they assume soul sleep as a presupposition and then read it into all the Scripture they offer as proof of their presupposition. Essentially, rather than wearing "rose colored glasses," as the optimist does, when they read the Bible, they have on "soul sleep glasses" and end up seeing soul sleep everywhere in the Bible whether it's there or not.

I haven't the time - or, really, the inclination - to parse through every proof-text offered in defense of soul sleep and I don't need to do so in order to provide a solid, biblical counter to it. As I've already pointed out from Christ's own parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, and Paul's remarks about death, soul sleep just doesn't wash. As Jesus said:

Luke 20:38
38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.

In context, Jesus had just referred to Exodus 3 where God, speaking to Moses, says repeatedly that He is "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." This God, Jesus declared, is not the God of the dead, who these men would be, having died many centuries prior to Christ, but of the living. Are we to understand Jesus to mean that Jehovah-God is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the dead Patriarchs of Israel? No. In Exodus 3, God affirmed repeatedly that He was their God, dead though they were when God spoke to Moses about them. So, then, if God is the God, not of the dead, but of the living, and He is God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then these men must be alive, not dead.

It's no surprise, then, in light of these things, that on the Mount of Transfiguration long-dead Elijah and Moses appear and speak for a time with Jesus (Mark 9:2-8). Like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Elijah and Moses also are men of the God of the living, not the dead, and demonstrate this is so by their attendance upon Jesus centuries after the decease of their bodies. Their souls do not "sleep" but manifest on the mountainside in distinct form, able to converse with Christ.

There are other reasons besides these from the NT that serve to dissolve the soul sleep view but the above is sufficient, I think, to do so.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies, his soul "sleeps" or the denial of man's conscious existence between when he dies and the resurrection day. It's what is called the intermediate state of the believer, in which both the body and the soul lay rest in the ground and the phrase 'soul sleep' appears to have been popularized by John Calvin. In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious till he is made alive at the resurrection by Christ at the Second Coming.

So what does the Bible say at whether you lay in the grave in a non sentient state, awaiting Christ.

Let's look at the story of Lazarus who was raised up from the grave by Christ.
John 11:11-14 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. And then in verse 17 Jesus says of Lazarus: 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he [Lazarus] had lain in the grave four days already.

We see that Jesus equated death to sleep and used the terms interchangeably; and in this story Lazarus has been dead for 4 days. Let's continue:
Verse 43-44: And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Now, Lazarus had been dead for 4 days, if he had in fact gone to heaven (or hell) in any conscious form why is nothing told by Lazarus of this? Lazarus does not come back to life with any stories of where he was, what he saw, or anything. He doesn't talk about walking on streets of gold nor burning with fire. After being resurrected he does speak, and all he says is a simple acknowledgement of who was standing there with Jesus. So lets look at the whole Bible and see what we find.

Too bad you widened the scope from soul sleep to other things. I will ignore everything but that.

While I don't think the dead are "asleep", I wonder if aspects of sleep are true of some. For the righteous, the passage of time until the resurrection may go unnoticed. Yet they are still conscious. Lazarus in the parable was in Abraham's bosom, which metaphorically can signify relaxing, resting (2 Sam. 12:3; 1 Ki. 3:20). But the rich man speaks of him as fully conscious, able to do his bidding.

Christ's description of His friend Lazarus as "sleeping" is problematic, he isn't speaking of the soul. Sleep could be idiomatic.

But I wonder if aspects of "soul sleep" apply to the righteous, while the wicked "have no rest."

The righteous are not "sleeping", Christ didn't tell the thief "today you will be with me in paradise [sleeping]". But perhaps they are "resting" in such a way that "time flies", so they can endure the long wait till the resurrection.

I wonder if the souls in Third Heaven paradise don't experience the full passage of time, just as sometimes we do not when we say "time flies" because in retrospect, years have passed almost unnoticed.

Perhaps that is what the Reformer Martin Luther meant when he alluded to soul sleep.

Soul sleep
The idea of soul sleep has enjoyed considerable popularity in some Christian circles. This idea can be traced to the great Reformer Martin Luther who used the metaphor to describe the state between death and resurrection. During this period, the soul enters into a state of repose, and at the resurrection the human being, both body and soul, will be raised. ‘For just as a man who falls sleep and sleeps soundly until the morning does not know what has happened to him when he wakes up, so we shall suddenly rise on the Last Day; and we shall know neither what death has been like or how we have come through it.’9 Although Lutheran orthodoxy after Luther did not embrace the Reformer’s teaching in this aspect, many others, notably the Anabaptists and Socinians, did.


9 Helmut Lehman (ed.), Luther’s Works (Muhleanburg, 1959), vol. 51, p. 234.

-Chia, R. (2012). Hope for the World: The Christian Vision (D. Smith & J. Kapolyo, Eds.; pp. 50–51). Langham Global Library.

 

[Consecrated Life]

For me I'll take the Word of Jesus Christ on it

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

something that tells us that Christendom’s adherents have been fed lies about what the “soul” and the “spirit” actually are

I know no one wants to hear from the peanut gallery...but here I go:

The Angel does slumber, but does not sleep. The Angel is aware of every moment, of every day... the subconscious mind is something none of these "scientist" will ever understand.....because they were never taught to "speak properly".

 

[Padre Pio]

A soul never sleeps, I can say this mainly because of my own personal paranormal experiences.

 

[follower]

So you see, “soul sleep” is biblical

Reading the thread was going straight on - really good, good honest Bible .....

But there's nothing in the Bible about the man-made doctrines and teachings and assumptions about "soul sleep".

So the problem is not as easy as it seems to remove - billions of people , or maybe millions, have been taught false things about man-made doctrines of "soul sleep"... and so when they see or hear or read "soul sleep" they cannot possibly think straight on - really good, good honest Bible ...... no, they are deep in many errors , including many not ever even related to the soul, nor to sleep, at all.

 

[follower]

For me I'll take the Word of Jesus Christ on it

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

For Truth you will ?

Do you remember at all how much time passed BEFORE JESUS entered paradise or heaven ?

If you are able to find this in the Bible good.
If you are able to find an honest truthful messenger of God who God revealed this to, and learn , good.

 

[Consecrated Life]

For Truth you will ?

Do you remember at all how much time passed BEFORE JESUS entered paradise or heaven ?

Jesus said they would be in paradise "today"
Today means before sunset.

 

[follower]

Jesus said they would be in paradise "today"
Today means before sunset.

No. Jesus never said that they would be anywhere today. And they were not together anywhere "today" except or unless the grave counts.
Trusting errors in teachings will not relieve anyone of falling not only in those particular errors,
but evermore even all the future errors / pit/ that they fall in as a result of their mis-placed trust.

 

[Consecrated Life]

No. Jesus never said that they would be anywhere today. And they were not together anywhere "today" except or unless the grave counts.

Where then do you believe Jesus is saying they will be "today" ?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[follower]

Where then do you believe Jesus is saying they will be "today" ?

Well , let's see where they were that day:
In Israel ?
In Jerusalem ?
On Golgatha ?
On a cross (maybe an execution stake or a tree) ?
Buried ?

Did either of them go somewhere else according only to what is written in the Bible ? No.
So, as far as we can see in Scripture, that day,
where they could be,
never included paradise at all as a possibility nor as a choice for that day.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Where then do you believe Jesus is saying they will be "today" ?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Well , let's see where they were that day:
In Israel ?
In Jerusalem ?
On Golgatha ?
On a cross (maybe an execution stake or a tree) ?
Buried ?

Did either of them go somewhere else according only to what is written in the Bible ? No.
So, as far as we can see in Scripture, that day,
where they could be,
never included paradise at all as a possibility nor as a choice for that day.

So why would Jesus say the word "Paradise" to describe where they were going do you believe ?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[follower]

So why would Jesus say the word "Paradise" to describe where they were going do you believe ?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Find the original word.
He never described where they would be today.

And since neither Jesus nor the thief went to heaven nor to paradise at all for some time period longer than a day, that rules out the false teachings for those who are seeking Truth and Life in Jesus.
Oh, there are billions of people on earth who believe false teachings, and are supported or depend on that system that teaches them false teachings....
and there are remaining few on earth who are set free from the false teachings.