Soul Sleep yes or no?

[Consecrated Life]

So why would Jesus say the word "Paradise" to describe where they were going do you believe ?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Find the original word.

I do see the original word used by Jesus , "Paradise" .

The original word Can be found in the form of Black ink on white paper in Luke 23:43

" To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

 

[follower]

I do see the original word used by Jesus , "Paradise" .

The original word Can be found in the form of Black ink on white paper in Luke 23:43

" To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Wonderful for you and for the false teachers that use that as if it justifies false teaching, yes ?

Since neither Jesus nor the thief, nor anyone we know of , went to paradise then, and Jesus does not lie,

that means something else at least, maybe several things, are wrong with the false teachings which are impossible to have been done, but which were built upon quicksand ,

which Jesus very specifically warned against, right ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

I do see the original word used by Jesus , "Paradise" .

The original word Can be found in the form of Black ink on white paper in Luke 23:43

" To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

 

[Free]

Find the original word.
He never described where they would be today.

παράδεισος - paradeisos:

of Pers. or. (enclosure); a park, a garden, a paradise: — Paradise (3).

These are the only two other places that word is used:

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

It is worth noting that in the only other instances of paradeisos, the meaning clearly refers to heaven. That seems to agree with Paul:

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. (ESV)
That is, while we live this life in our bodies, we are “away from the Lord.” It is when we are “away from the body,” when we die, that we are “at home with the Lord.”

And since neither Jesus nor the thief went to heaven nor to paradise at all for some time period longer than a day,

How do you know?

that rules out the false teachings for those who are seeking Truth and Life in Jesus.

But what is the false teaching? You haven’t shown anything to the true teaching. Simply calling other people’s position false doesn’t make your position true, and offering no viable alternative is not helpful.

Oh, there are billions of people on earth who believe false teachings, and are supported or depend on that system that teaches them false teachings....
and there are remaining few on earth who are set free from the false teachings.

Of course. You seem very sure you’re not among them, perhaps too sure.

 

[reddogs]

For me I'll take the Word of Jesus Christ on it

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And where was the thief, still on the cross and where was Christ, we see that Christ did not go to heaven when He died but not until after the resurrection.

John 20:16-17
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So we can see that Jesus did not go to Paradise after His death that day either, as He was buried and remained in the tomb until His resurrection. The day of His resurrection He appeared to Mary, stating that He had “not yet ascended to My Father” but that now He was ascending to "My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God”. So what is in the text with the thief on the cross has punctuation that was not given in the original.
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The obvious implication is that He could not have promised the thief that He would be with him in Paradise on Friday. and Jesus and the thief did not die at the same time as Jesus died Friday and the thief was still alive, and his legs were broken to keep him from escaping as it usually took several days for those who were crucified to die.

Its much like the mistake made with 'Easter', the translators put it in because they felt thats what should go there.
The Greek word that the King James Version translates as “Easter” is actually the word “Pascha” (Hebrew: פסח—Pesach) which means “Passover”. It was during an annual Passover celebration that Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem. Here is the text in question:

Acts 12:4 King James Version

"4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."

We find it was translated incorrectly because the bible scholars preconceived ideas led them to this. If we look at the text from previous versions we find it was correctly translated...

Acts 12:4 1599 Geneva Bible

"4 [a]And when he had caught him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to be kept, intending after the Passover to bring him forth to the people."

Acts 12:4 Wycliffe Bible

"4 And when he had caught Peter, he sent him into prison; and betook him to four quaternions of knights, to keep him, and would after pask bring him forth to the people [willing after pask to bring him forth to the people]."

And others..

Acts 12:4 Complete Jewish Bible

"4 so when Herod seized him, he threw him in prison, handing him over to be guarded by four squads of four soldiers each, with the intention of bringing him to public trial after Pesach."

Acts 12:4 Young's Literal Translation

"4 whom also having seized, he did put in prison, having delivered [him] to four quaternions of soldiers to guard him, intending after the passover to bring him forth to the people."

 

[Consecrated Life]

And where was the thief, still on the cross and where was Christ, we see that Christ did not go to heaven when He died but not until after the resurrection.

So how can Jesus's use of the specific word " paradise " be explained ?
Was Jesus unsure of where they were actually going and just hoping for the best ?
Did Jesus know they were not going to be in paradise , but telling a lie to a dying believer to give him false hope ?
Such a profound and direct statement from Jesus Christ at the very moment of death, of all times, cannot simply be dismissed with a shrug of the shoulders .
How do you reconcile Jesus's very specfic statement ?

" To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

 

[Tenchi]

So how can Jesus's use of the specific word " paradise " be explained ?
Was Jesus unsure of where they were actually going and just hoping for the best ?
Did Jesus know they were not going to be in paradise , but telling a lie to a dying believer to give him false hope ?
Such a profound and direct statement from Jesus Christ at the very moment of death, of all times, cannot simply be dismissed with a shrug of the shoulders .
How do you reconcile Jesus's very specfic statement ?

" To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

It's so...bizarre to me to watch the slippery twisting, and squirming, and flat-out denial of the plain, direct statement of Scripture of some in this thread, as you simply hold your ground against their demonic "Did God say?" challenges. Well done, Consecrated Life. The verse you've cited says what it says and no amount of verbal gymnastics by those who find its contents inconvenient changes this fact. You have not been moved from what God has said in His word, though others have tried to shift you, as the serpent did Eve in Eden, through direct denial of His word. Again, well done.

What's also bizarre to me is how easily those who would deny what Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him do so, offering specious explanations without apparent pang of conscience or moment of concern. Forget Jesus's actual statement, their false doctrine is more important and if it means denying Jesus' words to maintain that false doctrine, well, so be it. Yikes.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It's so...bizarre to me to watch the slippery twisting, and squirming, and flat-out denial of the plain, direct statement of Scripture of some in this thread, as you simply hold your ground against their demonic "Did God say?" challenges. Well done,.

Thank you Tenchi,
You this same slippery , slithering , contortionist technique being employed so often on this site in an effort to avoid text that is plain as the noonday sun it really makes you wonder what is the motivation within the heart of someone so craving & desperate for there to be "soul sleep" ?
For me I believe that in large part it stems from a lack of Spiritual knowledge as to just who this Jesus is, as well as failure to recognize that , " God is able" to do anything your human mind cannot understand.


Mat 3:9
I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 

[Tenchi]

Thank you Tenchi,
You this same slippery , slithering , contortionist technique being employed so often on this site in an effort to avoid text that is plain as the noonday sun it really makes you wonder what is the motivation within the heart of someone so craving & desperate for there to be "soul sleep" ?
For me I believe that in large part it stems from a lack of Spiritual knowledge as to just who this Jesus is, as well as failure to recognize that , " God is able" to do anything your human mind cannot understand.


Mat 3:9
I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Your remarks here make me think of the Principle of Occam's Razor, which is that one should not multiply explanations of a thing unnecessarily and that, when one does, it is often an indication that one has got "the wrong end of the stick." All you've had to do in grounding your view is to point at the plain statement of God's word. No multiple lines of argument or explanation necessary. Those who would deny that biblical statement are tying themselves in knots of explanation in their effort to deny the obvious, as one must always do in denial of the obvious. It's a bit like how Woke folk deny that a man is a man and a woman, a woman. In order to do so, they've had to produce ridiculously involved denials of the obvious. But this is exactly what Occam's Razor indicates will be the case with a faulty view.

 

[LeviR]

So how can Jesus's use of the specific word " paradise " be explained ?
Was Jesus unsure of where they were actually going and just hoping for the best ?
Did Jesus know they were not going to be in paradise , but telling a lie to a dying believer to give him false hope ?
Such a profound and direct statement from Jesus Christ at the very moment of death, of all times, cannot simply be dismissed with a shrug of the shoulders .
How do you reconcile Jesus's very specfic statement ?

" To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Paul says “to day” is the day of salvation. He means that as long as salvation is possible, every day is called “to day”. Which is true because every new day is called to day.

Is it possible that’s what Jesus meant?

I think believers are to be confident in the hope of paradise set before them

 

[Consecrated Life]

Paul says “to day” is the day of salvation. He means that as long as salvation is possible, every day is called “to day”. Which is true because every new day is called to day.

Is it possible that’s what Jesus meant?

I think believers are to be confident in the hope of paradise set before them

Well the thief had already arrived at "salvation" while he was still breathing on his cross.
Where he will be going next , after he stops breathing, is the point of Jesus's naming "Paradise" as his destination.
An answer prompted by his asking Jesus to remember him , after He dismissed His own Spirit

 

[tdidymas]

Thank you Tenchi,
You this same slippery , slithering , contortionist technique being employed so often on this site in an effort to avoid text that is plain as the noonday sun it really makes you wonder what is the motivation within the heart of someone so craving & desperate for there to be "soul sleep" ?
For me I believe that in large part it stems from a lack of Spiritual knowledge as to just who this Jesus is, as well as failure to recognize that , " God is able" to do anything your human mind cannot understand.


Mat 3:9
I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Tks for your persistent replies. But I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't change the opinions of those on the other side of the debate (at least not openly). I've seen many thousands of posts in forums like this, and I've seen only one person actually say they've changed their opinion (that I can remember). If people are too proud to say "I could be wrong," then chances are, they will argue their position to their dying day.

Prooftexting is easy, and the lazy person's way to proving they have the right answer. Not that prooftexting is wrong, but because it's the easy way to debate, many people tend to rely on it, and use it, because obtaining truth from scripture is so difficult and takes too much time. People typically look for shortcuts. Pride makes people want "the right answer" they can present, rather than finding the hard truth behind what is said. Prooftexting is what is done in every cult, and is what misleads people. This is why the method may reveal truth, but may not, and ends up causing great risk to people who are gullible enough to believe the narrative around it.

But it begs the question, what is so attractive about the soul-sleep idea? Is it because people see the traditional R.I.P. on grave markers and assume that death means sleeping in peace? If that's the attraction, then such a person thinks this life is miserable indeed. I know that JWs teach the idea, and prooftexting is their M.O. And I get the idea that it's attractive to them only because it defies traditional Christian doctrine. To me, soul-sleep looks too much like annihilation, which is the ugliest form of doom I can think of.

Yet, we have to keep on arguing for the truth, because Jesus did, and Paul did, and most of the NT was written because of controversies. I would venture to say that much of the whole Bible was written because of controversies. Paul wrote that such conflicts are inevitable, and involves spiritual warfare. "Casting down imaginations and every lofty thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God" - that is, arguing ideas, theology, agendas, and doctrines from a Biblical viewpoint. It may be that those who have a cultic agenda and who argue against the truth, could some day silently change their mind.

 

[LeviR]

Well the thief had already arrived at "salvation" while he was still breathing on his cross.
Where he will be going next , after he stops breathing, is the point of Jesus's naming "Paradise" as his destination.
An answer prompted by his asking Jesus to remember him , after He dismissed His own Spirit

I don’t think anyone could actually be where Jesus was going until Jesus himself went there. Jesus went there after he rose from the dead three days later.

 

[tdidymas]

Paul says “to day” is the day of salvation. He means that as long as salvation is possible, every day is called “to day”. Which is true because every new day is called to day.

Is it possible that’s what Jesus meant?

I think believers are to be confident in the hope of paradise set before them

No, it's not possible, because the context indicates that he meant that day, not every day. In Paul's epistle, that context indicates he meant every day. Howbeit, he meant that day, if the reader needed to make a decision to repent and believe the gospel. Yet, the decision to follow Christ is an every day decision. But in contrast to that, when Jesus said "today you will be with me in Paradise," it did not require an every day decision to follow Christ, but was a literal day in which the man was put into paradise (the bosom of Abraham), which was a single event.

Good interpretation of scripture examines each context separately and compares differences and distinctions. It is misleading to indiscriminately take words from different contexts and assume they mean the same thing. When people do that, it causes confusion about what words mean (for example, faith, judgment, works, law, and the like). And in this case, "today" and "sleep" as shown in this thread.

 

[tdidymas]

I don’t think anyone could actually be where Jesus was going until Jesus himself went there. Jesus went there after he rose from the dead three days later.

Who says? If Luke 16 is a literal story (it's not called a parable), then people did go to paradise (bosom of Abraham) prior to Jesus' resurrection. How do you know Jesus and the thief didn't show up there before Jesus ascended "to the Father"?

 

[LeviR]

Who says? If Luke 16 is a literal story (it's not called a parable), then people did go to paradise (bosom of Abraham) prior to Jesus' resurrection. How do you know Jesus and the thief didn't show up there before Jesus ascended "to the Father"?

I don’t think Lazarus could have been in Paradise before Jesus died.

Jesus is said to be forerunner when the veil was torn open into the Most holy place at his death.
Before Jesus had died the veil was still covering Paradise. In other words the door or gate was shut.

 

[for_his_glory]

Soul sleep is another false teaching of the Jehovah Witness and Seven-day Adventist who believe the soul no longer exist after death. Any one can research that.

We are immaterial souls joined to a physical body created by God from the dust of the ground. God breathed His breath/spirit into our nostrils that made this body a living soul. We are made up of three parts being spirit, soul and body that are joined together when we were conceived in our mother's womb.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The body is physical with five senses being sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch that connects with the world.

The soul is the part of the human being that will live on in eternity and with our soul, not our body, is the part of us that is to love God.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

In those two verses it speaks about our soul as being in relationship with God and not this fleshly body. It's our soul and spirit that needs regeneration by God's Spirit.

The life we have here on earth is temporal as our physical bodies will die and return to the dust and be remembered no more.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The life and the blood is in Jesus who gives our soul eternal life with the Father by that of the blood sacrifice of Christ through God's grace that we are made righteous by the righteousness of God through the Spiritual rebirth. God is not going to reform our physical bodies that have returned to dust, but will raise us from the grave in new glorified bodies that we know not what we will look like.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Notice this verse says soul and body is destroyed in the grave, which hell means the grave one is buried in. Dust to dust.

The soul makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. After we die there is no more thought, action or emotion.When a person dies they return to the dust of the ground and the soul (living soul within us) no longer exist.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The soul is a combination of body and spirit. When the two no longer exist together there is no consciousness of anything. John 3:13 states that no one has ever ascended up to heaven as all that have died in Christ will be resurrected on the last day when Christ returns to eternal life, 1Corinthians 15:50-58. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It's not this physical body that will be resurrected when Christ returns, as we will be changed, but no one knows what we will look like other than that we will be immortal and incorruptible like Christ in His glorified body.


Hebrew word for soul is "nephesh" and the Greek for soul is "psyche" which refers to a living, breathing conscious body. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. When we die the soul no longer exist and our breath/spirit returns back to God for final judgement.

 

[tdidymas]

I don’t think Lazarus could have been in Paradise before Jesus died.

Jesus is said to be forerunner when the veil was torn open into the Most holy place at his death.
Before Jesus had died the veil was still covering Paradise. In other words the door or gate was shut.

Your idea is an opinion, not an exegesis of scripture, so it's not convincing. I take Jesus' story in Luke 16 literally, because it fits the flow of conversation, unlike parables which are obviously figures and symbols. And the story indicates that the rich man in torment was able to talk to Abraham (in paradise), and that his brothers were still alive on Earth. If we take the story literally, then there is (or was) a holding place in Hades called "paradise" in which there was no torment. When Jesus was raised, He "led captivity captive," IOW recaptured the people in Paradise to bring them into the presence of the Father where He dwells (in the 3rd heaven). Either you accept the traditional interpretation, or you don't, and everyone has reasons for either.

 

[tdidymas]

Soul sleep is another false teaching of the Jehovah Witness and Seven-day Adventist who believe the soul no longer exist after death. Any one can research that.

We are immaterial souls joined to a physical body created by God from the dust of the ground. God breathed His breath/spirit into our nostrils that made this body a living soul. We are made up of three parts being spirit, soul and body that are joined together when we were conceived in our mother's womb.

...

Notice this verse says soul and body is destroyed in the grave, which hell means the grave one is buried in. Dust to dust.

The soul makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. After we die there is no more thought, action or emotion.When a person dies they return to the dust of the ground and the soul (living soul within us) no longer exist.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The soul is a combination of body and spirit. When the two no longer exist together there is no consciousness of anything. John 3:13 states that no one has ever ascended up to heaven as all that have died in Christ will be resurrected on the last day when Christ returns to eternal life, 1Corinthians 15:50-58. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It's not this physical body that will be resurrected when Christ returns, as we will be changed, but no one knows what we will look like other than that we will be immortal and incorruptible like Christ in His glorified body.


Hebrew word for soul is "nephesh" and the Greek for soul is "psyche" which refers to a living, breathing conscious body. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. When we die the soul no longer exist and our breath/spirit returns back to God for final judgement.

It looks like you're contradicting yourself here. First you say that soul sleep is a false teaching, then you say that the soul doesn't exist at death. Did you make a mistake here, and add a teaching section you disagree with?

 

[LeviR]

I’ve just joined this forum. Will I be banned for offering counter-points?