Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them

[DJT_47]

Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.

First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.

Also keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.

And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.

You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?

The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.

To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.

I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.

1 Corinthians 12:8-31

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18

7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Galatians 3:23-27

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:7-16

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.

Greetings in Christ, DJT. I don't believe we've talked before, so good having a chance to with you.

About the above argument, I think you aren't reading and interpreting the text of 1st Corinthians 12 in the broader context, but let me explain.

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).

The Greek here is βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι' ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον. It reads literally "now we see through a glass in an enigma, but then face to face." Paul was here making use of Numbers 12, where it states, "Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent, and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, He said, 'Listen to My words. When there is a prophet among you, I the Lord reveal Myself to him in visions. I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of My servant Moses. He is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face clearly, and not in enigmas. He sees the [very] form of the Lord. Why, then, were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:5-8 in the LXX).

Paul uses the same two phrases from this passage in Numbers from the LXX (Greek translation of the Old Testament), which shows this is the passage he was alluding to, and he used these exact same two expressions to make the same comparisons. God spoke "face to face" (πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον) with Moses, but to His prophets He spoke "in enigmas" (ἐν αἰνίγματι). An enigma is what a prophetic dream or vision is like. It is a riddle, which is why some translations read, "For now we see through a glass in obscurity (or in riddles)." Throughout ancient Greek, the word αίνιγμα is almost invariably translated into English as "dark sayings, riddles," hence the translations, "seeing through a glass darkly." In ancient times, glass was not nearly as refined as it is now. You could see through it a little, but the image was often very blurry and "dark," thus it took perception to discern what you were actually looking at through it. This parallels with what it is like to interpret prophetic dreams and visions, and also to what it is like prophesying directly over the lives of others one does not know. The one prophesying doesn't have a clue about the person he is prophesying over, so he is simply uttering what the Spirit of God is leading him to say even though at the moment he is still completely in the dark about it.

Thus, Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of operating in tongues and prophecy, and point out how prophecy is superior, being the greater gift, because it brings greater edification to the saints. But until we get to Heaven, Biblical prophecy would always be needed because we do not truly see one another face to face yet and know one another's inner most secrets as God does.

In conclusion, and in context, the passage therefore has nothing to do with the gifts ceasing or the canon being closed. Quite the opposite, it teaches the need for the gifts until the Lord comes.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.

It is difficult if one looks at them from the outside. Once you are given these gifts and operate in them, it becomes quite clear.

First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.

Also keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.

You think those troubles are not seen today?

And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.

If we read the books of Acts, we do not see a church as you describe. What we see there is a powerful set of believers who loved their lives LESS than loving Christ. Whole churches were deathly afraid of a virus that only killed the elderly and refused to meet together. That church met even though they might be dragged out and stoned. They raised the dead. A couple who lied about their giving instantly dropped dead when lying about it. They were told about a famine coming and sent money to help a different congregation. When has one church taken an offering for a DIFFERENT church? So that church was not fledgling in that sense. They were powerful and spread the gospel to then known world. They heard teaching from men who were not interested in their material benefits. They did not have "worship" leaders who gave concerts for money standing up front taking in all the honor and just about worship they can get.

If you think the gifts are no longer available, you are mistaken. Logically, it only takes one person who has and moves in the gifts to disprove your position. There are, in fact, many who are so gifted. It would be better to ask God for the Holy Spirit and his gifts rather then search the scriptures to find comfort in why you haven't any.

 

[DJT_47]

It is difficult if one looks at them from the outside. Once you are given these gifts and operate in them, it becomes quite clear.

You think those troubles are not seen today?

If we read the books of Acts, we do not see a church as you describe. What we see there is a powerful set of believers who loved their lives LESS than loving Christ. Whole churches were deathly afraid of a virus that only killed the elderly and refused to meet together. That church met even though they might be dragged out and stoned. They raised the dead. A couple who lied about their giving instantly dropped dead when lying about it. They were told about a famine coming and sent money to help a different congregation. When has one church taken an offering for a DIFFERENT church? So that church was not fledgling in that sense. They were powerful and spread the gospel to then known world. They heard teaching from men who were not interested in their material benefits. They did not have "worship" leaders who gave concerts for money standing up front taking in all the honor and just about worship they can get.

If you think the gifts are no longer available, you are mistaken. Logically, it only takes one person who has and moves in the gifts to disprove your position. There are, in fact, many who are so gifted. It would be better to ask God for the Holy Spirit and his gifts rather then search the scriptures to find comfort in why you haven't any.

Here's a recent repost of mine from another forum that should address the subject and question as to whether or not the gifts are present today.

There are 2 instances recorded in Acts wherein the Spirit fell unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands and in both instances it was for a sign, to validate what was occurring by on high, and to establish the church. The first is in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit fell on the apostles who then spoke in other earthly tongues which was the sign to the then unbelieving Jews who were then converted which was the beginning of the church at Jerusalem.

The second and only other time was in Acts 10 with Cornelius, a Gentile when the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles 1st as a sign to Paul and his party to validate from on high that it was permissible to bring the Gentiles into the church, afterwhich they too were immediately baptized and note Paul's words on that occasion. That started the 1st Gentile church in Caesarea. No other time did the Spirit fall on anyone miraculously without the laying on of the hands of the apostle's on someone by which the spiritual gifts were manifested. There are no apostles nor persons they laid their hands on to further perpetuate the spiritual gifts mor is there any reason for such gifts today. Read Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 6:8, Acts 8:13, Acts 8:17-19, Acts 20:6. The aforementioned scriptures clearly indicate that the miraculous gifts were enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands.

 

[DJT_47]

Greetings in Christ, DJT. I don't believe we've talked before, so good having a chance to with you.

About the above argument, I think you aren't reading and interpreting the text of 1st Corinthians 12 in the broader context, but let me explain.

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).

The Greek here is βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι' ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον. It reads literally "now we see through a glass in an enigma, but then face to face." Paul was here making use of Numbers 12, where it states, "Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent, and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, He said, 'Listen to My words. When there is a prophet among you, I the Lord reveal Myself to him in visions. I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of My servant Moses. He is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face clearly, and not in enigmas. He sees the [very] form of the Lord. Why, then, were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:5-8 in the LXX).

Paul uses the same two phrases from this passage in Numbers from the LXX (Greek translation of the Old Testament), which shows this is the passage he was alluding to, and he used these exact same two expressions to make the same comparisons. God spoke "face to face" (πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον) with Moses, but to His prophets He spoke "in enigmas" (ἐν αἰνίγματι). An enigma is what a prophetic dream or vision is like. It is a riddle, which is why some translations read, "For now we see through a glass in obscurity (or in riddles)." Throughout ancient Greek, the word αίνιγμα is almost invariably translated into English as "dark sayings, riddles," hence the translations, "seeing through a glass darkly." In ancient times, glass was not nearly as refined as it is now. You could see through it a little, but the image was often very blurry and "dark," thus it took perception to discern what you were actually looking at through it. This parallels with what it is like to interpret prophetic dreams and visions, and also to what it is like prophesying directly over the lives of others one does not know. The one prophesying doesn't have a clue about the person he is prophesying over, so he is simply uttering what the Spirit of God is leading him to say even though at the moment he is still completely in the dark about it.

Thus, Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of operating in tongues and prophecy, and point out how prophecy is superior, being the greater gift, because it brings greater edification to the saints. But until we get to Heaven, Biblical prophecy would always be needed because we do not truly see one another face to face yet and know one another's inner most secrets as God does.

In conclusion, and in context, the passage therefore has nothing to do with the gifts ceasing or the canon being closed. Quite the opposite, it teaches the need for the gifts until the Lord comes.

It teaches the perfecting of the body of Christ as I explained, and also as I explained, it was addressed to the Corinthians and predicated upon the issues they had and were experiencing; hence, the perfect man or the perfecting of the body at Corinth at that point in time. The letter wasn't written to us nor does it relate to some future event that effects today's global body of Christ as a whole. The gifts have all ceased as stated they would in 1 Cor 13:8. There are no longer apostles by which they can be passed on through. Read my post to Dorothy I posted prior to addressing you now. Therein it explains by scripture the miraculous gifts as relates to the apostles and ramifications thereof to us today.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The gifts have all ceased as stated they would in 1 Cor 13:8.

Ok, let's start here then. At what exact date did the gifts cease?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Here's a recent repost of mine from another forum that should address the subject and question as to whether or not the gifts are present today.

There are 2 instances recorded in Acts wherein the Spirit fell unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands and in both instances it was for a sign, to validate what was occurring by on high, and to establish the church. The first is in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit fell on the apostles who then spoke in other earthly tongues which was the sign to the then unbelieving Jews who were then converted which was the beginning of the church at Jerusalem.

The second and only other time was in Acts 10 with Cornelius, a Gentile when the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles 1st as a sign to Paul and his party to validate from on high that it was permissible to bring the Gentiles into the church, afterwhich they too were immediately baptized and note Paul's words on that occasion. That started the 1st Gentile church in Caesarea. No other time did the Spirit fall on anyone miraculously without the laying on of the hands of the apostle's on someone by which the spiritual gifts were manifested. There are no apostles nor persons they laid their hands on to further perpetuate the spiritual gifts mor is there any reason for such gifts today. Read Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 6:8, Acts 8:13, Acts 8:17-19, Acts 20:6. The aforementioned scriptures clearly indicate that the miraculous gifts were enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands.

Of course logically one cannot deduce that the few examples are the ONLY way He gives gifts. No writer in the Bible indicated a time limited empowering. It also makes no sense that only a few in history got gifts. Jesus said that if we who are evil know how to give gifts, how much more will God give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.

The other thing that might not impact you, but I’ve prayed for the lame and they walked. I’ve prayed for the sick and they were healed. I’ve received the gift of faith in a difficult circumstance. I know people who preached the gospel intelligently to someone in a language they didn’t know.

So you can lay out why scripturally those gifts aren’t there. But I will continue to use the gifts needed to help others.

Reminds me of something I sometimes say about hearing the voice of God. I was only a child when God started speaking to me so I hadn’t learned the theology that insists that God has stopped speaking to people directly. I didn’t know so I just answered Him and learned to know His voice. It was at least a decade later I heard He’s stopped speaking to us.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ok, let's start here then. At what exact date did the gifts cease?

That’s like asking when God stopped speaking to people. Was it the moment John put down his pen? Was when the canon was decided? Or did He wait for the Gutenberg press?

 

[hawkman]

The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

So, you do not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit ?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

DJT_47, why don't you ask God to give some a gift or two instead of telling us why He is not giving any of them to anyone? Isn't it better to have one than insist there aren't any today? He gives the Holy Spirit generously he says. But there might be something needed on your part, I have to admit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Does that church (body of Christ) no longer exist with the first one being established on the day of Pentecost?

Are we not to edify and lift up the church (body of Christ) anymore by those Spiritual gifts found in 1Corinthisans 12 as Paul taught us to cover earnestly the best gifts.

What you present are the tradition doctrines of Cessationalist as in preaching another gospel

Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.

The doctrine of cessationism has evolved into various forms since its initial formulation. One disagreement between cessationists is the point when the gifts ceased—either with the deaths of the apostles, or gradually over the first few centuries. If the gifts are only imparted through the laying on of hands by the apostles, as Warfield argues, then the gifts necessarily ended with the death of the last apostle.[8] One writer categorises such a priori beliefs as principled cessationism, but recognizes that an a posteriori, or empirical, cessationism is also possible. Empirical cessationism asserts that the gifts were lost through the church's supposed deviation from sound doctrine, and not because they must necessarily have ended.[9] The author quotes a study published by cessationists Brian and Scott McPherson to illustrate the empirical cessationist position.[10]

Although the original formulation of cessationism arose in response to claims of healing and miracles in the Catholic Church, cessationists now divide into four viewpoints based on their views about the possibility of miracles among Christians today.[11] These are:

Full cessationists believe that all miracles have ceased, along with any miraculous gifts.[12]
Classical cessationists assert that the miraculous gifts such as prophecy, healing, and speaking in tongues ceased with the apostles. However, they do believe that God occasionally works in supernatural ways today.[12]
Consistent cessationists believe that not only were the miraculous gifts only for the establishment of the first-century church, but the need for apostles and prophets also ceased.[12]
Concentric cessationists believe that the miraculous gifts have indeed ceased in the mainstream church and evangelized areas, but may appear in unreached areas as an aid to spreading the Gospel. Daniel B. Wallace describes himself as a concentric cessationist and describes the other cessationist viewpoints as "linear".[13]

Cessationism versus continuationism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Hidden In Him]

Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.

I was looking for that meme about Calvinists being predestined to have really, really BAD theology, but I couldn't find it.

 

[DJT_47]

Ok, let's start here then. At what exact date did the gifts cease?

No exact date, but for certain it was no longer than the apostles or whom they laid their hands on lived. They could no longer be passed on when everyone who had the ability to make them manifest were no longer living. Also, at what point were they no longer needed? No exact date there either. But we do know what 1 Cor 13:8-10 says, that they would cease when that which is perfect is come at least as related to the Corinthians and where they were at in their growth process as a body of Christ. That's how this must be looked at, as relates to them not us since the letter was to them, not us.

 

[DJT_47]

Of course logically one cannot deduce that the few examples are the ONLY way He gives gifts. No writer in the Bible indicated a time limited empowering. It also makes no sense that only a few in history got gifts. Jesus said that if we who are evil know how to give gifts, how much more will God give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.

The other thing that might not impact you, but I’ve prayed for the lame and they walked. I’ve prayed for the sick and they were healed. I’ve received the gift of faith in a difficult circumstance. I know people who preached the gospel intelligently to someone in a language they didn’t know.

So you can lay out why scripturally those gifts aren’t there. But I will continue to use the gifts needed to help others.

Reminds me of something I sometimes say about hearing the voice of God. I was only a child when God started speaking to me so I hadn’t learned the theology that insists that God has stopped speaking to people directly. I didn’t know so I just answered Him and learned to know His voice. It was at least a decade later I heard He’s stopped speaking to us.

If the bible is or should be our one-and-only guide, then we can only draw conclusions based on it. So, if the apostles were solely given the power, which they were when looking at John's comments in Luke 3:16, and Jesus comments in Luke 24:49, how or why should we think that the power from on high would be given to others as you're inferring? That's a stretch and a dangerous one that unfortunately many make regarding a lot of scriptures they don't want to accept.

Don't confuse or conflate the power if prayer with the miraculous spiritual gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 which are in question. Prayer is NOT one of the gifts of the Spirit.

And having faith in God or Jesus is nor the miraculous type of faith noted in the aforementionedisting of spiritual gifts, du h as Stephen had. Can your faith move mountains? That's the type of faith that is of a miraculous nature.

God speaks to us through his word.

 

[DJT_47]

So, you do not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit ?

Why do you say that? What exactly do you mean and what does that have to do with the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 which is the topic of discussion? Everyone baptized into Christ receives the Holy Spirit but that's not the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.

 

[Hidden In Him]

No exact date, but for certain it was no longer than the apostles or whom they laid their hands on lived. They could no longer be passed on when everyone who had the ability to make them manifest were no longer living. Also, at what point were they no longer needed? No exact date there either. But we do know what 1 Cor 13:8-10 says, that they would cease when that which is perfect is come at least as related to the Corinthians and where they were at in their growth process as a body of Christ. That's how this must be looked at, as relates to them not us since the letter was to them, not us.

See, but here is my problem with your position, and thanks for the courteous response. Not enough of that in debate these days.

If you don't present a definite date then people have nothing to scrutinize it against, and no opportunity to prove whether it actually happened or not. It becomes an unprovable, unrefutable argument because its basis is never pinpointed, and likely never could if you are tying it to something that supposedly happened in Corinth. See what I mean?

It's a supposition based merely off an interpretation, and with such important and dreadfully negative implications for the end time church, I think you need more than that.

 

[hawkman]

Why do you say that?

Because you said this below .

We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

I wanted to make sure you knew the Holy Spirit can and should guide us in all truth , but we have to heed the prompting offered by the Holy Spirit .

What exactly do you mean and what does that have to do with the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 which is the topic of discussion?

We have to have the Holy Spirit inside of us for the miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit to manifest . And Praise God they do still manifest !

Everyone baptized into Christ receives the Holy Spirit but that's not the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.

Guess what ? I received a gift from the Holy Spirit at my salvation . I received the Gift of Tongues at salvation, before I left the spot at the front of the church where I received my salvation . I stood there at the altar and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . Over the next few weeks I came to understand that The Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through me when I was at the altar .

 

[Hidden In Him]

Guess what ? I received a gift from the Holy Spirit at my salvation . I received the Gift of Tongues at salvation, before I left the spot at the front of the church where I received my salvation . I stood there at the altar and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . Over the next few weeks I came to understand that The Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through me when I was at the altar .

That's pretty rare!

Mine came several months after conversion, during a AoG convention at St. Louis, but I have always thought that the New Testament pattern of receiving immediately upon coming up out of the water was the archtype, like after Jesus' water baptism. But I think the reason it doesn't happen that way that often right now is because most are not trained to prepare for it, nor are most ministers praying for it to take place at that time, but I have reason to believe it's what the Lord ultimately intended to take place.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If the bible is or should be our one-and-only guide, then we can only draw conclusions based on it. So, if the apostles were solely given the power, which they were when looking at John's comments in Luke 3:16, and Jesus comments in Luke 24:49, how or why should we think that the power from on high would be given to others as you're inferring?

Do you take all of the things Jesus said to the 12 as being only for the 12? Or later only for that generation of those who heard him or his apostles? When Jesus said "you" he meant only those standing there? That is what you are doing here. You are also limiting God to being able to give his Holy Spirit to those there who died in the first century. Jesus said God gives the Holy Spirit generously. Your view is He is stingy and gave us giving.

That's a stretch and a dangerous one that unfortunately many make regarding a lot of scriptures they don't want to accept.

Don't confuse or conflate the power if prayer with the miraculous spiritual gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 which are in question. Prayer is NOT one of the gifts of the Spirit.

Have you ever prayed for a lame woman who got up and ran around? Probably not. Have you ever prayed for a person and they were healed in that hour? That is, have you ever had miracles come from your prayers and you and the recipient knew it? Gifts of healing are gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And having faith in God or Jesus is nor the miraculous type of faith noted in the aforementionedisting of spiritual gifts, du h as Stephen had. Can your faith move mountains? That's the type of faith that is of a miraculous nature.

In this I agree. Faith in God or Jesus is definitely NOT the miraculous type of faith in the aforementioned spiritual gifts. There is a theology that insists believing faith or saving faith is a gift which is an insult of God and man as though one cannot believe the obvious without a divine interference. The gift of faith is something altogether different.

God speaks to us through his word.

He also has not stopped speaking directly. I know He speaks to you because each one of us has the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin. That is NOT through his word. That is directly. If you do or say something wrong or tell a lie, instantly the Holy Spirit bothers you pointing out the lie. This is true, right?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's pretty rare!

Mine came several months after conversion, during a AoG convention at St. Louis, but I have always thought that the New Testament pattern of receiving immediately upon coming up out of the water was the archtype, like after Jesus' water baptism. But I think the reason it doesn't happen that way that often right now is because most are not trained to prepare for it, nor are most ministers praying for it to take place at that time, but I have reason to believe it's what the Lord ultimately intended to take place.

Cornelius got the gift of the Holy Spirit before baptism. I do not think that there is a pattern.