Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them

[DJT_47]

The diversity of these gifts of the Spirit in whom gives them to men and women as all of these gifts work as one in God's ministry as the Holy Spirit is one in all who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit who at the same time can receive several of these gifts.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Notice in vs 11 the words "to every man". Not just the disciples, but to all who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit even today and forever till Christ returns as the manifestation of these gifts are the government of God's true church being the body of Christ, not a four walled building with a name attached to it.

When I first spoke in tongues and interpreted other tongues it was either a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge for the body of Christ. My faith is by the same Spirit just as speaking healing for another. Not sure if I ever worked any miracles, but that word needs to be defined in its intent. I have given prophecy as in a word of knowledge that others needed to hear and also know how to discern the spirits whether they be of God or not. I pray in tongues and have interpreted tongues and guess what, none of the Disciples became alive in order to lay hands on me, but all given to me and many others as the Holy Spirit seems fit to give for the purpose and timing of God's ministry.

In 1 cor 12:11, the interlinear Greek original language says "to each as he wills" and not "to every man" as the KJV states.

What exactly did you reveal that the bible, which is the complete word of God, not already reveal? What words of wisdom specifically, what prophesy specifically, etc? Tongues were for a sign to unbelievers; were there such in your audience and what earthly language did you speak and what was said?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Tongues is the least of the gifts, according to Paul and of course, the easiest to fake. Miracles are harder to fake although possible. Wisdom or a word of knowledge are harder to fake because they are intellectually recognized by anyone. But all the other are more useful than tongues. But since it it is easier to fake tongues, it is often made the gold standard. Tongues is the only one the user has under their command. All the others really do require the Supernatural. So many circles boast of speaking in tongues as an indication of spiritual prowess. That they have wisdom is not the gold standard because too many do not at all.

 

[hawkman]

Wisdom or a word of knowledge are harder to fake because they are intellectually recognized by anyone.

The source of a Word of knowledge has been faked quite often . The travelling healing shows, what they would do is have a few of their crew from the show get info from the unsuspecting audience members before the show started . When the healer would get into his show he would go to audience members that the crew had got info from and the crew would use electronic communications to prompt the knowledge to the healer . The source is faked but not the knowledge .

Tongues is the only one the user has under their command. All the others really do require the Supernatural.

I have never spoke in tongues without it being the utterance from the Holy Spirit and that does require the supernatural . If the Holy Spirit does not give the utterance I am not speaking in tongues . The only "command" I have is if I let the Holy Spirit take the utterance or I don't let the Holy Spirit take the utterance . I am open to the Holy Spirit using me at anytime to deliver the message the Holy Spirit wants to be spoken . I did have a surprise(a pleasant one) once when the Holy Spirit took the utterance and it was not in a church service , but the Holy Spirit wanted to have his say and he did ! Here is what happened .
A few years back I was a patient on a limited access floor of a hospital , I was in for observation , how I came to be in the hospital is an epic story . Once a day we would have a session with a leader asking a question and we would take turns giving our thoughts . The leader asked the question and I was not first in line to answer and as I was sitting there trying to form an answer in my head it was NOT happening no matter how I tried ! I knew that something needed to be said but I could not even get two words together in my mind . When it came for my turn to speak much to my shock my mouth opened and out came the most eloquent words and the words came out with force and precision but they were NOT my words it was the Holy Spirit giving the message in English . I am by no stretch of the imagination a good speaker , so my face had to be one of utter disbelief as the words came out of my mouth . So I came to understand what is meant by these verses , Matthew Chapter 10

19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The source of a Word of knowledge has been faked quite often . The travelling healing shows, what they would do is have a few of their crew from the show get info from the unsuspecting audience members before the show started . When the healer would get into his show he would go to audience members that the crew had got info from and the crew would use electronic communications to prompt the knowledge to the healer . The source is faked but not the knowledge .

Yes, and the reason for it is because whenever true moves of God are coming upon the earth, Satan moves in advance of them with counterfeits to try and destroy the move before it can take place. He likes presenting the whole thing as if it is false, but when real moves come, the proofs are overwhelming to the true children of God.

My wife belongs to a Hispanic church with a good pastor and wife, and they have had several prophets come through over the last 10 years who were the real deal, and they constantly just read people's mail like nobody's business. Her and I went to a meeting just three weeks ago, and at one point the visiting prophet came up to a young man and his wife and immediately began prophesying over them that he would have three sons who would be in the ministry. He called them by name, stating the names of all three, and that one was going to be an end-time apostle. People were hooping and hollering all over the place and the wife was bent over in the pew just overwhelmed, and I couldn't figure out why all the reaction was so strong. But I found out later that the man already did have three sons by those names, only they were not yet living for God the way they should.

He was nailing everybody in that church, naming numerous people by name and prophesying over them, including prophecies to the pastor and his wife, some of their children who were heading into ministry, several of the deacons, the whole congregation there that night, from young to old. And those who think it is all staged have no clue. He also gave a brief word to me that no one in that church would know but God. I don't even go there, my wife does, and even she doesn't know that stuff, and certainly wouldn't tell anybody if she did. But the operation of the true gifts is exceedingly important to the end-time church, and the full restoration of New Testament Christianity in the times to which we are headed.

Thank Heavens there are those who still believe in His ability to move supernaturally. Even Christ Jesus Himself could do no miraculous works in regions where there was no faith.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The source of a Word of knowledge has been faked quite often . The travelling healing shows, what they would do is have a few of their crew from the show get info from the unsuspecting audience members before the show started . When the healer would get into his show he would go to audience members that the crew had got info from and the crew would use electronic communications to prompt the knowledge to the healer . The source is faked but not the knowledge .

I was thinking in small christian gatherings, not the modern productions. And really those only show how the audience is foolish and unable to discern. And That’s not a Word of knowledge any more than performing on stage is worship of God. It’s an act. Words of knowledge from a real servant of the Lord impart to the recipient something they could not know, not guess something they already know.

I have never spoke in tongues without it being the utterance from the Holy Spirit and that does require the supernatural . If the Holy Spirit does not give the utterance I am not speaking in tongues . The only "command" I have is if I let the Holy Spirit take the utterance or I don't let the Holy Spirit take the utterance . I am open to the Holy Spirit using me at anytime to deliver the message the Holy Spirit wants to be spoken . I did have a surprise(a pleasant one) once when the Holy Spirit took the utterance and it was not in a church service , but the Holy Spirit wanted to have his say and he did ! Here is what happened .
A few years back I was a patient on a limited access floor of a hospital , I was in for observation , how I came to be in the hospital is an epic story . Once a day we would have a session with a leader asking a question and we would take turns giving our thoughts . The leader asked the question and I was not first in line to answer and as I was sitting there trying to form an answer in my head it was NOT happening no matter how I tried ! I knew that something needed to be said but I could not even get two words together in my mind . When it came for my turn to speak much to my shock my mouth opened and out came the most eloquent words and the words came out with force and precision but they were NOT my words it was the Holy Spirit giving the message in English . I am by no stretch of the imagination a good speaker , so my face had to be one of utter disbelief as the words came out of my mouth . So I came to understand what is meant by these verses , Matthew Chapter 10

Nice story although that’s not tongues when it’s your own language. Glad you had that experience but I’ve read many testimonies of those who will say they faked it (speaking in tongues.) I’ve read of experiments done where they recorded the utterances and they weren’t any language. I’ve also heard occult circles do this too. And a group asked a bunch of atheists to babble in tongues and they could at will. Didn’t find any different.

Now don’t mistake me, I speak in tongues too but I also have real bills in my wallet. I know that tongues can be faked and those bills can be faked.

19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Again, glad you had that experience. Seek to have it more often.

 

[hawkman]

I was thinking in small christian gatherings, not the modern productions.

Well I kinda thought that was were you were at , but one thing to keep in mind if the person is nefarious enough they could use social media to gather info before giving out words of "knowledge " .

And really those only show how the audience is foolish and unable to discern.

In a setting like I mentioned there may be a lot of non-Christians there with no discernment to speak of .

And That’s not a Word of knowledge any more than performing on stage is worship of God. It’s an act. Words of knowledge from a real servant of the Lord impart to the recipient something they could not know, not guess something they already know.

Exactly ! An act , a confidence scam .

Nice story although that’s not tongues when it’s your own language.

True , not tongues . The message I gave out was not for me but the method that the Holy Spirit used was a indicator to me that it is not as much important how the message is delivered , tongues . The important part is the message !

Glad you had that experience but I’ve read many testimonies of those who will say they faked it (speaking in tongues.)

It was quite eye opening :shock .

I’ve read of experiments done where they recorded the utterances and they weren’t any language. I’ve also heard occult circles do this too. And a group asked a bunch of atheists to babble in tongues and they could at will. Didn’t find any different.

One thing to think about it could be a language no longer spoken by anyone but the Holy Spirit . A dead language . Since the interpretation comes through the Holy Spirit it would make no difference .

Now don’t mistake me, I speak in tongues too but I also have real bills in my wallet. I know that tongues can be faked and those bills can be faked.

Have you ever saw someone fake tongues in person ? You discerned it . Of course we have all seen suspect videos of tongues .

Again, glad you had that experience. Seek to have it more often.

Thanks ! But I don't see seeking it to happen , as the Lord wills .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well I kinda thought that was were you were at , but one thing to keep in mind if the person is nefarious enough they could use social media to gather info before giving out words of "knowledge " .

Only if they have the audience fill out information cards or at least give their names.

In a setting like I mentioned there may be a lot of non-Christians there with no discernment to speak of .

Usually the group is majority christian. Now promoting experience seeking is very common in the church. Lends itself to shows and showmen.

Exactly ! An act , a confidence scam .

True , not tongues . The message I gave out was not for me but the method that the Holy Spirit used was a indicator to me that it is not as much important how the message is delivered , tongues . The important part is the message !

It was quite eye opening :shock .

Yes, I agree.

One thing to think about it could be a language no longer spoken by anyone but the Holy Spirit . A dead language . Since the interpretation comes through the Holy Spirit it would make no difference .

If they weren’t faking it.

Have you ever saw someone fake tongues in person ? You discerned it .

They said they were. No discernment needed. There was pressure to do so or the praying bunch won’t let them go.

Of course we have all seen suspect videos of tongues .

Thanks ! But I don't see seeking it to happen , as the Lord wills .

Well, if one refuses to acknowledge faking exists, one is very easily deceived.

 

[Elijah777]

That's pretty rare!

Mine came several months after conversion, during a AoG convention at St. Louis, but I have always thought that the New Testament pattern of receiving immediately upon coming up out of the water was the archtype, like after Jesus' water baptism. But I think the reason it doesn't happen that way that often right now is because most are not trained to prepare for it, nor are most ministers praying for it to take place at that time, but I have reason to believe it's what the Lord ultimately intended to take place.

Hey "Hidden In Him" you said: That's pretty rare!

I agree ... but not un-scriptural. There is ONE biblical example of the HAWKMAN'S type experience. But, there are FIVE ( ? ),examples of the ONE/TWO, manifestations of HS = Born Again [ HS IN ], and THEN the Baptism of HS [ upon the Believer ].

If these examples, represent the averages, the "Hawkman" experience is RARE or about 1 of 6, or only about SEVENTEEN PERCENT of believers, have the "Hawkman" experience.

THE ONE "Cornelius" SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLE:
Cornelius' House in Acts 10: 44 - 48 ... got the whole meal deal = "saved +baptized in HS, with evidenced speaking tongues" ... in an rapid sucession on/two punch !. BUT, USING SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES AS THE TEMPLATE ... a "Cornelius experience" ... getting saved, then Baptized with HS ... is a 1 of 6 OR 17 % of the time = happening one/two within seconds of each other. The remainder of examples, show Born again, then sometime later being Baptized with the Holy Spirit [ like you "Hidden in Him" and myself Elijah777 ].

Acts 10: 44 - 48 Cornelius and his house

44 While Peter yet spake these words [ they had to have been convicted/repented/received Jesus/HS in their hearts at this POINT in time ], [ THEN added ] the Holy Ghost fell on all them [ = baptized them in HS ] which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost [ this can only mean = gift of the Baptism of Holy Spirit, because they were already Born Again, immediately prior to this 2nd manifestation of HS in their lives ].

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost [ again, can't mean receiving HS at Salvation/Born Again, BUT RATHER, means rec'd Baptism Holy Spirit ] as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


The Biblical record shows the ABOVE example IS rare = 17 % of the biblical examples. The FIVE one/two examples are below:

ONE example: Acts 2. 3-4 The 120 at Pentecost

The 120 ( which included 12 disciples ) were all Born Again [ Spirit IN them = before Pentecost ]. Therefore, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a 2nd manifestation, at least 50 days after they were Born Again + water baptized [ we don't see when they were WATER baptized but it is understood in scripture ].

TWO example: Acts 2. 37 - 39 The 3000+ Jews at day of Pentecost

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart [ = they repented ], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do [ what need we DO to get Born Again AND get this Baptism of the HS = Joel promise ( upon all flesh ) = Baptism of HS = that John the Baptist spoke about in Luke 3.16 and Jesus promised the disciples in Acts 1.5 ]?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent [ = get Born Again ], and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins [ = neither Peter or you will WATER baptize an UNSAVED person, THEREFORE before this the 3000 would be Born Again = HS IN them ], and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [ = the Baptism of Holy Spirit ].

39 For the promise [ = this JOEL 2.29 promise Peter explain = Baptism of HS ] is unto you [ 3000+ ], and to your children, and to all that are afar off [ all Believes over the ages ], even as many as the Lord our God shall call [ anyone who is Born Again ]. [ THEREFORE, every Christians has the expectation to receive the Baptism of the HS, with evidence of speaking in tongues ! ]

Now think. The 3000 didn't SEE the HS FALL ON the heads of the 120 in the Upper Room [ they didn't see the fire like John Baptist promised ( John 3.16 = " ... He/Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. " ) ]. The 3000 SAW the 120 on the streets of Jerusalem, and what they SAW, was the 120 speaking in tongues ... speaking the wonderful works of God. The TONGUES was the only EVIDENCE ... the 3000 saw/heard ...showing/proving that the JOEL promise was now fulfilled.

OKAY then. We can conclude, the 3000 said: " right then, we repent, we ask Jesus into our hearts ... we'll get water baptized ... but then ... we expect and want ... as promised in Acts 2.39 ... to get the SAME MANIFESTATION that these 120 got ... being HS ( like fire we didn't see ) COME UPON [ baptize ] ALL of US ... and THEN ... we will speak with other tongues ... and we'll be speaking the wonderful works of God ( just like the 120 ... speaking with glorious/exquisite/heavenly languages our natural brains couldn't possibly imagine/frame the glories of God and His works ). Why would the 3000+ expect anything less that what the 120 GOT ?

Clearly we can see the logical first step = 3000+ Jews got Born Again. Then WE can logically conclude, the 3000+ Jews expected/GOT Baptized with HS, with the EVIDENCE of SPEAKING WITH OTHER TONGUES !

balance of proofs to follow ...

 

[Elijah777]

To Hidden in Him, balance of Proofs

THREE example: Acts 8.12 - 19 The Samaritans first got born again [ HS IN them ], then LATER rec'd the Baptism of HS [ = HS UPON them ].


12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ [ at this point in time = they repented = were Born Again = Holy Spirit IN them = Born Again ], THEN [ added ] they were [ WATER ] baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also [ scripture says Simon was "born again" ]: and when he was [ WATER ] baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God [ Jesus = Word = John 1.1 = were Born Again ] , they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost [ since they were already Born Again, this can only mean that they'd receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit = HS UPON them]:

16 (For as yet He/HS was fallen upon [ not IN them, but UPON = being Baptized = on outside of Believer ] none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [ You do not water baptize unsaved people ]

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost [ = they were Baptized with HS ].

18 And when Simon saw [ saw ? ... the only thing he could have seen is them SPEAKING IN TONGUES = evidence of being BAPTIZED with HS ] that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost [ = Baptism of HS is given ] was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost [ = Baptism of HS is given ]. [ = doesn't mean Simon wasn't Born Again = immature "baby" carnal Christian = "dirtied his drawers", who then repented ]

FOUR example: Acts 9: 17 - 18 The Apostle Paul first got born again [ HS IN him, before Ananias showed up ], then LATER rec'd the Baptism of HS [ = HS UPON him ].

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul [ = brother = God/HS is calling Paul SAVED = Born Again = HS IN him before this point in time ], the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost [ referring back to Acts 1.4 = after HS came ON the 120 like fire Acts 1.3, the scripture = God says = the 120 were FILLED with the HS = or, in other words = the Baptism of Holy Spirit already happened and the FILLING is also a natural occurance of the Baptism of HS having already happened ].

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

We know Paul spoke in tongues more than all [ 1st Cor. 14.18 ]. And since, Acts 2 shows, that speaking in tongues was PROOF/evidence HS had fallen UPON the 120 [ = Baptized with HS ], we then conclude, this is where Paul was Baptized with HS. AND, because Acts 2. 1-4 is the "first scriptural instance", which is grounds for sound doctrine ... we can logically conclude, Paul also receive the gift of tongues at this time.
FIVE example: Acts 19: 1 - 7 The Ephesians first got born again [ HS IN them ], then LATER rec'd the Baptism of HS [ = HS UPON them ].

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost [ can only mean = Baptize with HS ] since [ means = AFTER ] ye believed [ can only mean = saved = Born Again ]? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost [ = NOT Born Again ]. [ the scriptural term: SINCE ye beleived ... denotes after you were born again ]

3 And he [ Paul ] said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily [ water ] baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus [ = you need to be Born Again = HS IN you ].

5 When they heard this [ = they repented = got Born Again = HS IN them ], THEN [ added ] they were [ water ] baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them [ = baptized with HS ]; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

 

[Elijah777]

Cornelius got the gift of the Holy Spirit before baptism. I do not think that there is a pattern.

Yes there is a type of pattern Cornelius is 1 of 6 or about Seventeen Percent of the scriptural believers got Baptized with HS IMMEDIATELY after they were Baptized with HS. Here's the conclusion"

Hey "Hidden In Him" you said: That's pretty rare!


I agree ... but not un-scriptural. There is ONE biblical example of the HAWKMAN'S type experience. But, there are FIVE ( ? ),examples of the ONE/TWO, manifestations of HS = Born Again [ HS IN ], and THEN the Baptism of HS [ upon the Believer ].

If these examples, represent the averages, the "Hawkman" experience is RARE or about 1 of 6, or only about SEVENTEEN PERCENT of believers, have the "Hawkman" experience.

THE ONE "Cornelius" SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLE:
Cornelius' House in Acts 10: 44 - 48 ... got the whole meal deal = "saved +baptized in HS, with evidenced speaking tongues" ... in an rapid sucession on/two punch !. BUT, USING SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES AS THE TEMPLATE ... a "Cornelius experience" ... getting saved, then Baptized with HS ... is a 1 of 6 OR 17 % of the time = happening one/two within seconds of each other. The remainder of examples, show Born again, then sometime later being Baptized with the Holy Spirit [ like you "Hidden in Him" and myself Elijah777 ].

Acts 10: 44 - 48 Cornelius and his house

44 While Peter yet spake these words [ they had to have been convicted/repented/received Jesus/HS in their hearts at this POINT in time ], [ THEN added ] the Holy Ghost fell on all them [ = baptized them in HS ] which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost [ this can only mean = gift of the Baptism of Holy Spirit, because they were already Born Again, immediately prior to this 2nd manifestation of HS in their lives ].

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost [ again, can't mean receiving HS at Salvation/Born Again, BUT RATHER, means rec'd Baptism Holy Spirit ] as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


The Biblical record shows the ABOVE example IS rare = 17 % of the biblical examples. The FIVE one/two examples are below:

ONE example: Acts 2. 3-4 The 120 at Pentecost

The 120 ( which included 12 disciples ) were all Born Again [ Spirit IN them = before Pentecost ]. Therefore, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a 2nd manifestation, at least 50 days after they were Born Again + water baptized [ we don't see when they were WATER baptized but it is understood in scripture ].

TWO example: Acts 2. 37 - 39 The 3000+ Jews at day of Pentecost
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart [ = they repented ], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do [ what need we DO to get Born Again AND get this Baptism of the HS = Joel promise ( upon all flesh ) = Baptism of HS = that John the Baptist spoke about in Luke 3.16 and Jesus promised the disciples in Acts 1.5 ]?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent [ = get Born Again ], and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins [ = neither Peter or you will WATER baptize an UNSAVED person, THEREFORE before this the 3000 would be Born Again = HS IN them ], and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [ = the Baptism of Holy Spirit ].

39 For the promise [ = this JOEL 2.29 promise Peter explain = Baptism of HS ] is unto you [ 3000+ ], and to your children, and to all that are afar off [ all Believes over the ages ], even as many as the Lord our God shall call [ anyone who is Born Again ]. [ THEREFORE, every Christians has the expectation to receive the Baptism of the HS, with evidence of speaking in tongues ! ]

Now think. The 3000 didn't SEE the HS FALL ON the heads of the 120 in the Upper Room [ they didn't see the fire like John Baptist promised ( John 3.16 = " ... He/Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. " ) ]. The 3000 SAW the 120 on the streets of Jerusalem, and what they SAW, was the 120 speaking in tongues ... speaking the wonderful works of God. The TONGUES was the only EVIDENCE ... the 3000 saw/heard ...showing/proving that the JOEL promise was now fulfilled.

OKAY then. We can conclude, the 3000 said: " right then, we repent, we ask Jesus into our hearts ... we'll get water baptized ... but then ... we expect and want ... as promised in Acts 2.39 ... to get the SAME MANIFESTATION that these 120 got ... being HS ( like fire we didn't see ) COME UPON [ baptize ] ALL of US ... and THEN ... we will speak with other tongues ... and we'll be speaking the wonderful works of God ( just like the 120 ... speaking with glorious/exquisite/heavenly languages our natural brains couldn't possibly imagine/frame the glories of God and His works ). Why would the 3000+ expect anything less that what the 120 GOT ?

Clearly we can see the logical first step = 3000+ Jews got Born Again. Then WE can logically conclude, the 3000+ Jews expected/GOT Baptized with HS, with the EVIDENCE of SPEAKING WITH OTHER TONGUES !

balance of proofs to follow

 

[Elijah777]

Cornelius got the gift of the Holy Spirit before baptism. I do not think that there is a pattern.

balance of Baptism of HS proofs :

THREE example: Acts 8.12 - 19 The Samaritans first got born again [ HS IN them ], then LATER rec'd the Baptism of HS [ = HS UPON them ].


12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ [ at this point in time = they repented = were Born Again = Holy Spirit IN them = Born Again ], THEN [ added ] they were [ WATER ] baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also [ scripture says Simon was "born again" ]: and when he was [ WATER ] baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God [ Jesus = Word = John 1.1 = were Born Again ] , they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost [ since they were already Born Again, this can only mean that they'd receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit = HS UPON them]:

16 (For as yet He/HS was fallen upon [ not IN them, but UPON = being Baptized = on outside of Believer ] none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [ You do not water baptize unsaved people ]

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost [ = they were Baptized with HS ].

18 And when Simon saw [ saw ? ... the only thing he could have seen is them SPEAKING IN TONGUES = evidence of being BAPTIZED with HS ] that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost [ = Baptism of HS is given ] was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost [ = Baptism of HS is given ]. [ = doesn't mean Simon wasn't Born Again = immature "baby" carnal Christian = "dirtied his drawers", who then repented ]

FOUR example: Acts 9: 17 - 18 The Apostle Paul first got born again [ HS IN him, before Ananias showed up ], then LATER rec'd the Baptism of HS [ = HS UPON him ].

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul [ = brother = God/HS is calling Paul SAVED = Born Again = HS IN him before this point in time ], the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost [ referring back to Acts 1.4 = after HS came ON the 120 like fire Acts 1.3, the scripture = God says = the 120 were FILLED with the HS = or, in other words = the Baptism of Holy Spirit already happened and the FILLING is also a natural occurance of the Baptism of HS having already happened ].

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

We know Paul spoke in tongues more than all [ 1st Cor. 14.18 ]. And since, Acts 2 shows, that speaking in tongues was PROOF/evidence HS had fallen UPON the 120 [ = Baptized with HS ], we then conclude, this is where Paul was Baptized with HS. AND, because Acts 2. 1-4 is the "first scriptural instance", which is grounds for sound doctrine ... we can logically conclude, Paul also receive the gift of tongues at this time.
FIVE example: Acts 19: 1 - 7 The Ephesians first got born again [ HS IN them ], then LATER rec'd the Baptism of HS [ = HS UPON them ].

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost [ can only mean = Baptize with HS ] since [ means = AFTER ] ye believed [ can only mean = saved = Born Again ]? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost [ = NOT Born Again ]. [ the scriptural term: SINCE ye beleived ... denotes after you were born again ]

3 And he [ Paul ] said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily [ water ] baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus [ = you need to be Born Again = HS IN you ].

5 When they heard this [ = they repented = got Born Again = HS IN them ], THEN [ added ] they were [ water ] baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them [ = baptized with HS ]; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If these examples, represent the averages, the "Hawkman" experience is RARE or about 1 of 6, or only about SEVENTEEN PERCENT of believers, have the "Hawkman" experience.

Thanks for the response brother, and nice to see you posting. I'd be interested to see how many in our time have a similar experience. His is actually the first I have ever encountered to say he received this way. The vast majority receive as a later experience through the laying on of hands, as I did.

Clearly we can see the logical first step = 3000+ Jews got Born Again. Then WE can logically conclude, the 3000+ Jews expected/GOT Baptized with HS, with the EVIDENCE of SPEAKING WITH OTHER TONGUES !

I think they did receive the Spirit after this, yes, but again I personally believe it was by the laying on of hands after this.

I'd be interested to see what other evidences you have, although forgive me if you have already posted it. I noticed someone added another post while I was typing this one.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes there is a type of pattern Cornelius is 1 of 6 or about Seventeen Percent of the scriptural believers got Baptized with HS IMMEDIATELY after they were Baptized with HS. Here's the conclusion"

Hey "Hidden In Him" you said: That's pretty rare!


I agree ... but not un-scriptural. There is ONE biblical example of the HAWKMAN'S type experience. But, there are FIVE ( ? ),examples of the ONE/TWO, manifestations of HS = Born Again [ HS IN ], and THEN the Baptism of HS [ upon the Believer ].

If these examples, represent the averages, the "Hawkman" experience is RARE or about 1 of 6, or only about SEVENTEEN PERCENT of believers, have the "Hawkman" experience.

THE ONE "Cornelius" SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLE:
Cornelius' House in Acts 10: 44 - 48 ... got the whole meal deal = "saved +baptized in HS, with evidenced speaking tongues" ... in an rapid sucession on/two punch !. BUT, USING SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES AS THE TEMPLATE ... a "Cornelius experience" ... getting saved, then Baptized with HS ... is a 1 of 6 OR 17 % of the time = happening one/two within seconds of each other. The remainder of examples, show Born again, then sometime later being Baptized with the Holy Spirit [ like you "Hidden in Him" and myself Elijah777 ].

Acts 10: 44 - 48 Cornelius and his house

44 While Peter yet spake these words [ they had to have been convicted/repented/received Jesus/HS in their hearts at this POINT in time ], [ THEN added ] the Holy Ghost fell on all them [ = baptized them in HS ] which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost [ this can only mean = gift of the Baptism of Holy Spirit, because they were already Born Again, immediately prior to this 2nd manifestation of HS in their lives ].

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost [ again, can't mean receiving HS at Salvation/Born Again, BUT RATHER, means rec'd Baptism Holy Spirit ] as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


The Biblical record shows the ABOVE example IS rare = 17 % of the biblical examples. The FIVE one/two examples are below:

ONE example: Acts 2. 3-4 The 120 at Pentecost

The 120 ( which included 12 disciples ) were all Born Again [ Spirit IN them = before Pentecost ]. Therefore, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a 2nd manifestation, at least 50 days after they were Born Again + water baptized [ we don't see when they were WATER baptized but it is understood in scripture ].

TWO example: Acts 2. 37 - 39 The 3000+ Jews at day of Pentecost
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart [ = they repented ], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do [ what need we DO to get Born Again AND get this Baptism of the HS = Joel promise ( upon all flesh ) = Baptism of HS = that John the Baptist spoke about in Luke 3.16 and Jesus promised the disciples in Acts 1.5 ]?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent [ = get Born Again ], and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins [ = neither Peter or you will WATER baptize an UNSAVED person, THEREFORE before this the 3000 would be Born Again = HS IN them ], and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [ = the Baptism of Holy Spirit ].

39 For the promise [ = this JOEL 2.29 promise Peter explain = Baptism of HS ] is unto you [ 3000+ ], and to your children, and to all that are afar off [ all Believes over the ages ], even as many as the Lord our God shall call [ anyone who is Born Again ]. [ THEREFORE, every Christians has the expectation to receive the Baptism of the HS, with evidence of speaking in tongues ! ]

Now think. The 3000 didn't SEE the HS FALL ON the heads of the 120 in the Upper Room [ they didn't see the fire like John Baptist promised ( John 3.16 = " ... He/Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. " ) ]. The 3000 SAW the 120 on the streets of Jerusalem, and what they SAW, was the 120 speaking in tongues ... speaking the wonderful works of God. The TONGUES was the only EVIDENCE ... the 3000 saw/heard ...showing/proving that the JOEL promise was now fulfilled.

OKAY then. We can conclude, the 3000 said: " right then, we repent, we ask Jesus into our hearts ... we'll get water baptized ... but then ... we expect and want ... as promised in Acts 2.39 ... to get the SAME MANIFESTATION that these 120 got ... being HS ( like fire we didn't see ) COME UPON [ baptize ] ALL of US ... and THEN ... we will speak with other tongues ... and we'll be speaking the wonderful works of God ( just like the 120 ... speaking with glorious/exquisite/heavenly languages our natural brains couldn't possibly imagine/frame the glories of God and His works ). Why would the 3000+ expect anything less that what the 120 GOT ?

Clearly we can see the logical first step = 3000+ Jews got Born Again. Then WE can logically conclude, the 3000+ Jews expected/GOT Baptized with HS, with the EVIDENCE of SPEAKING WITH OTHER TONGUES !

balance of proofs to follow

First, as a scientist, you’re making mathematical conclusions based on a way too small sample size. The few times this event happened in NT is too few for your conclusion.

Second, Could you show where the scripture mentioned “asking Jesus into your heart” as part of a salvation formula?

 

[Iconoclast]

You could ask that of the entire Bible. But careful study and rightly dividing the word of truth is the answer. By not doing that is how people miss such things as misinterpreting and misunderstanding Mat 24 and the tribulation discussed there. It has already happened in AD 70 with the fall of Jerusalem; that scripture doesn't relate to us and some future event based on our lifetime.

You of course are giving the biblical truth. Not one of these people have any such gifts.
The Apostles were unique and foundational/ Most who believe these claims are unstable theologically.

 

[Iconoclast]

In 1 cor 12:11, the interlinear Greek original language says "to each as he wills" and not "to every man" as the KJV states.

What exactly did you reveal that the bible, which is the complete word of God, not already reveal? What words of wisdom specifically, what prophesy specifically, etc? Tongues were for a sign to unbelievers; were there such in your audience and what earthly language did you speak and what was said?

No one speaks in tongues today. Not one. Rhyming noises are not biblical tongues.

 

[Elijah777]

First, as a scientist, you’re making mathematical conclusions based on a way too small sample size. The few times this event happened in NT is too few for your conclusion.

Second, Could you show where the scripture mentioned “asking Jesus into your heart” as part of a salvation formula?

Sorry Dorothy,, I'm not a scientist.

I ONLY make BIBLICAL observations from the Scriptural God has given us. I'm not going to scientifically theorize so-called scientific doctrine's like Richard Dawkins. This is the ONLY sample size God gave us.

Except, if you look at 1st Cor. 15. 5 - 8, there were approx. 526 BRETHREN/apostles/desciples , [ = born again , because scripture terms are specific = brethren etc. ] who SAW Jesus BEFORE Jesus ascended = before Pentecost. Approx. 406 disciples/brethren [ born again ] believers saw Jesus in the flesh BEFORE Pentecost and who didn't OBEY Jesus' command to WAIT in the Upper Room [ Luke 24.49, Acts 1.8 ] until they received power [ = Baptism Holy Spirit ]. 120/526 = 23 % who we could conclude didn't receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, WITH the evidence of speaking with other tongues. Same ratio today = approx. 23 % roughly, of trhe Body of Christ speak with other tongues [ have been Baptized with HS ]. Right ? Biggest cause = unbelief due to false doctrine and fear from devil.

1 out of 6, observed HISTORICAL biblical events, is a simple mathematical deduction. If there are more examples you can point to ... then 1 of 7, or 1 of 8 = simple % !

I think, bible scholars [ not scientists } will agree that, QUOTE:

"The law (or principle or rule) of first mention is a guideline that some people use for studying Scripture. The law of first mention says that, to understand a particular word or doctrine [ such as Baptism of the Holy Spirit ], we must find the first place in Scripture that word or doctrine is revealed and study that passage. The reasoning is that the Bible’s first mention of a concept is the simplest and clearest presentation; doctrines are then more fully developed on that foundation [ pointing to similar scriptures ]. So, to fully understand an important and complex theological concept, Bible students are advised to start with its “first mention.” "​

I can only SEE 6 clear examples in the scriptures of people receiving the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT , then SPOKE IN OTHER TONGUES [ scriptures God wanted us to learn from ] --- scripture where we see ( or easily deduce from the language used and/or references to something like ... " Simon SAW that by the laying on of hands, the Holy Spirit [ baptize with HS ] was given " ) ! The Corinthians, spoke in OTHER tongues, proving they had received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit ... but we don't see where that EVENT occured ... like the 6 times reffered to above ( in Acts 2, Peter points to other tongues ... when answering the 3000+ Jews' question ... what do these tongue mean? ... as the SIGN/proof the Baptism of Holy Spirit had been given to the 120 = according to Joel's promise = law of first MENTION ) !

Correct. Nowhere in scripture do we see the exact phrase : asking Jesus into your heart. !
However ! When we take a look at the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE, we can conclude from the SEMANTIC COMPONENTS of many scripture verses, the clear implication of inviting/receiving Jesus into our hearts , over and over.

Examples:

Jesus is the Word made flesh = John 1.1, 14. Correct !!!

Gal. 4.6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” { = verse = Jesus IN our hearts ]

John 14.17 “the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you [ where ? = heart ]. [ God = Jesus = HS = Three = ONE ]

Jer. 31.33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days [ new covenant = NT ], says the LORD: I will put My law [ word = Jesus ] in their minds, and write it [ = law = word = Jesus ] on [ IN ] their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

John 4.14 “but whoever drinks of the water [ HS = Jesus ] that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water [ HS ] that I shall give him will become in [ not UPON ] him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7.38 - 39 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water [ HS = which is sign of other tongues = according to 1st Cor. 14.14 = my spirit prays ] .” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit [ = Jesus ], whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. [ We agree: Father = Son = HS = 3 = ONE ]

Job 22.22 Receive, please, instruction from His mouth, And lay up His words [ Jesus = Word ] in your heart.

Pro. 10.8 The wise in heart will receive commands [ = God's Word = Jesus ], But a prating fool will fall.

Eze. 3.10 Moreover He said to me: “Son of man, receive into your heart all My words [ = Jesus ] that I speak to you, and hear with your ears.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God [ = Jesus ], they sent Peter and John to them, [ Where else did the Samaritans receive Jesus ... except IN their heart ?].

THEREFORE, the IDIOM/phrase of "receive Jesus in your heart" ... is not derived from any specific group of words in one particular scripture verse ... it is clearly a bible principle many Christian accept as the TRUTH !

 

[Elijah777]

No one speaks in tongues today. Not one. Rhyming noises are not biblical tongues.

False statement. No back-up scriptural proof !

So you are asserting, the book of 1st Corinthians, and chapters like 12, 13, 14 ... which address the Gift of Other Tongues and how/when/where those Corinthians were to receive and operate the GIFT ... has no application to 21st Century Christians !

Hog wash ! Then the Book of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians etc. etc. etc. DO NOT APPLY TO 21st Century Christians either. You can't mean one, but not the other.

God specifically says: Forbid not to speak in other tongues. 1st Cor. 14.39. This admonition applies to today. Watch you don't step on God's toes !

120 spoke in tongues, 3000+Jews asked for same gift Acts 1.37 - 39, Samaritans rec'd Acts 8, Cornelius and house rec'd Acts 10, the Ephesians rec'd Acts 19, Corinthians obviously were using their other tongues incorrectly 1 Cor. 14, Paul rec'd 1 Cor. 14.18. Why would God stop giving this gift, when it is one promised in 1 Cor. 12.10. Show me where scripture says it stops. NO, Jesus [ = baptizer with H =, Luke 24.49 ] is same yesterday, today and forever.

Sorry, your devil inspired fear and false doctrine caue your unbelief, which results in you and others of your ilk to NOT receive.

Those Christians TODAY, who speak in other tongues, speak directly to God and build themself up ( when in their prayer closet ) Nice benefit. plus many many more benefits shown in scripture, which YOU are missing out on ! too bad !

 

[Elijah777]

You of course are giving the biblical truth. Not one of these people have any such gifts.
The Apostles were unique and foundational/ Most who believe these claims are unstable theologically.

FALSE: The Apostles were unique and foundational

The 120 less the 12, the Samaritans, Cornelius + house, the Ephesians, the Corinthians etc. disprove that boldfaced INACCURATE STATEMENT.

NONE OF THE ABOVE, WHO SPOKE IN TONGUES WERE apostles

 

[Elijah777]

First, as a scientist, you’re making mathematical conclusions based on a way too small sample size. The few times this event happened in NT is too few for your conclusion.

Second, Could you show where the scripture mentioned “asking Jesus into your heart” as part of a salvation formula?

Pretty rare = it does happen = it happened to Hawkman above and Cornelius' house ! AND, only God/Jesus know how often it has happened to other Believers over the centuries. BUT, the scripture points to the fact, more Christian in Scripture had the two stage, two step process, happening more often. First get Born again, then receive the Baptism of/with the Holy Spirit, with evidence of speaking in other tongues.

There are 400+ native languages in the Amazon jungle ... how many linguists do you know, know those languages, or the off-shoot dialects ? Probably none. Christians, speaking in tongues today, could very well be speaking those Amazon languages ... and how could any dumb liguist, with certainty, say they are just babbling. Impossible. Just like the doubters who dismiss the real gift of other tongues. Continue on without the benefit of speaking in tongues. OR, start listening to sound doctrine and ask God for His grace to understand and receive.

 

[Iconoclast]

FALSE: The Apostles were unique and foundational

TRUE;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The 120 less the 12, the Samaritans, Cornelius + house, the Ephesians, the Corinthians etc. disprove that boldfaced INACCURATE STATEMENT.

NONE OF THE ABOVE, WHO SPOKE IN TONGUES WERE apostles

this does not disprove anything.