Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them

[Dorothy Mae]

DJT_47, You can, of course, continue to insist God, our Father, refuses to give His Holy Spirit gifts to anyone after his chosen few died. And those of us who already received those gifts are trying to gently point out this error. You could point to the numerous fakers around and we are aware of them for sure. But in the end, it’s too late to convince us that God no longer generously gives His Holy Spirt with the accompanying gifts for service to others. We’ve already received them and use them in ministry to the body for the building up of the whole.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No exact date, but for certain it was no longer than the apostles or whom they laid their hands on lived. They could no longer be passed on when everyone who had the ability to make them manifest were no longer living. Also, at what point were they no longer needed? No exact date there either. But we do know what 1 Cor 13:8-10 says, that they would cease when that which is perfect is come at least as related to the Corinthians and where they were at in their growth process as a body of Christ. That's how this must be looked at, as relates to them not us since the letter was to them, not us.

Is the whole of the New Testament to them not us? If not, how do you decide?

 

[DJT_47]

Do you take all of the things Jesus said to the 12 as being only for the 12? Or later only for that generation of those who heard him or his apostles? When Jesus said "you" he meant only those standing there? That is what you are doing here. You are also limiting God to being able to give his Holy Spirit to those there who died in the first century. Jesus said God gives the Holy Spirit generously. Your view is He is stingy and gave us giving.

Have you ever prayed for a lame woman who got up and ran around? Probably not. Have you ever prayed for a person and they were healed in that hour? That is, have you ever had miracles come from your prayers and you and the recipient knew it? Gifts of healing are gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In this I agree. Faith in God or Jesus is definitely NOT the miraculous type of faith in the aforementioned spiritual gifts. There is a theology that insists believing faith or saving faith is a gift which is an insult of God and man as though one cannot believe the obvious without a divine interference. The gift of faith is something altogether different.

He also has not stopped speaking directly. I know He speaks to you because each one of us has the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin. That is NOT through his word. That is directly. If you do or say something wrong or tell a lie, instantly the Holy Spirit bothers you pointing out the lie. This is true, right?

In response to your very first comment/ question, it's a resounding YES. In this case, the words spoken by Jesus to his apostles in Luke 24:49 is confirmed by the scriptures I cited; that the power was bestowed on the apostles and by their hands did the miraculous gifts become manifested.

 

[DJT_47]

Is the whole of the New Testament to them not us? If not, how do you decide?

You could ask that of the entire Bible. But careful study and rightly dividing the word of truth is the answer. By not doing that is how people miss such things as misinterpreting and misunderstanding Mat 24 and the tribulation discussed there. It has already happened in AD 70 with the fall of Jerusalem; that scripture doesn't relate to us and some future event based on our lifetime.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Cornelius got the gift of the Holy Spirit before baptism. I do not think that there is a pattern.

Yes, well in Cornelius' case no Gentile had even been baptized in water yet, let alone have the Spirit poured out upon them, so I took the Lord was essentially circumventing any resistance the apostles might have had to the idea.

But you are correct, things seemed to have varied as far as timing, which would make for a curious study as to why. My supposition that both baptisms ought to happen simultaneously is based upon what baptism represents, i.e. being raised up in Spirit unto newness of life, with the old man of the flesh being put to death. But the New Testament itself doesn't actually support this being the pattern yet, no. More of simply a supposition of when the baptism should take place. I think Jesus was our ultimate example in all things, including the baptisms. I think it is why He allowed Himself to be water baptized, even though it represents dying to the old man, and Jesus had no sins that would require Him to die to anything. But He did it simply to set the example for us.

 

[DJT_47]

Yes, well in Cornelius' case no Gentile had even been baptized in water yet, let alone have the Spirit poured out upon them, so I took the Lord was essentially circumventing any resistance the apostles might have had to the idea.

But you are correct, things seemed to have varied as far as timing, which would make for a curious study as to why. My supposition that both baptisms ought to happen simultaneously is based upon what baptism represents, i.e. being raised up in Spirit unto newness of life, with the old man of the flesh being put to death. But the New Testament itself doesn't actually support this being the pattern yet, no. More of simply a supposition of when the baptism should take place. I think Jesus was our ultimate example in all things, including the baptisms. I think it is why He allowed Himself to be water baptized, even though it represents dying to the old man, and Jesus had no sins that would require Him to die to anything. But He did it simply to set the example for us.

I've clarified this before. In only 2 instances recorded in Acts, 2 and 10 did the Spirit fall unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands
In 2 it fell on the apostles as a sign to the unbelieving Jews who were afterwards converted. In 10 it fell first on the Gentiles also as a sign but to Paul and his party, also as a sign from above that the Gentiles should also be brought into the body of Christ. Cornelius and his were then immediately baptized. In both cases, it was the start of the church, 1st in Jerusalem and then amongst the Gentiles in Caesarea. Two unique instances and for good reason.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In response to your very first comment/ question, it's a resounding YES. In this case, the words spoken by Jesus to his apostles in Luke 24:49 is confirmed by the scriptures I cited; that the power was bestowed on the apostles and by their hands did the miraculous gifts become manifested.

I said ALL of what Jesus said. Do you think the whole of Jesus’ teaching was only for those there who heard it, not just the bit you’ve arbitrarily decided to delete for us?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You could ask that of the entire Bible. But careful study and rightly dividing the word of truth is the answer. By not doing that is how people miss such things as misinterpreting and misunderstanding Mat 24 and the tribulation discussed there. It has already happened in AD 70 with the fall of Jerusalem; that scripture doesn't relate to us and some future event based on our lifetime.

On the Matthew 24 sentences, I agree. But the whole of christianity agreed with us until the19th century.

 

[for_his_glory]

I was looking for that meme about Calvinists being predestined to have really, really BAD theology, but I couldn't find it.

Probably better off as it could be seen as a derogatory remark, which no doubt go south.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I've clarified this before. In only 2 instances recorded in Acts, 2 and 10 did the Spirit fall unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands
In 2 it fell on the apostles as a sign to the unbelieving Jews who were afterwards converted. In 10 it fell first on the Gentiles also as a sign but to Paul and his party, also as a sign from above that the Gentiles should also be brought into the body of Christ. Cornelius and his were then immediately baptized. In both cases, it was the start of the church, 1st in Jerusalem and then amongst the Gentiles in Caesarea. Two unique instances and for good reason.

DJT, no offense but I was already aware of your position, and Post #25 was not directed to you but to Dorothy Mae. The post that was directed to you was Post #16, which you have not replied to yet.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Probably better off as it could be seen as a derogatory remark, which no doubt go south.

Yes, I suppose so.

I just wasn't aware that yet another spiritually blind doctrine - one with even more spiritually debilitating ramifications - originated from none other than the depths of Calvinism.

If I may, what is the documentation on that btw?

 

[for_his_glory]

If the bible is or should be our one-and-only guide, then we can only draw conclusions based on it. So, if the apostles were solely given the power, which they were when looking at John's comments in Luke 3:16, and Jesus comments in Luke 24:49, how or why should we think that the power from on high would be given to others as you're inferring? That's a stretch and a dangerous one that unfortunately many make regarding a lot of scriptures they don't want to accept.

Don't confuse or conflate the power if prayer with the miraculous spiritual gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 which are in question. Prayer is NOT one of the gifts of the Spirit.

And having faith in God or Jesus is nor the miraculous type of faith noted in the aforementionedisting of spiritual gifts, du h as Stephen had. Can your faith move mountains? That's the type of faith that is of a miraculous nature.

God speaks to us through his word.

1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (Spiritual gifts)

1Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (Spiritual gifts)

1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (Spiritual gifts)

These three verses are summed up as all within the body of Christ that the Holy Spirit gives these Spiritual gifts to whom the Spirit of God can only give. There are diversity of gifts given, but the body of Christ is one in the Spirit as each are given different gifts that all work together as one body of Christ.


1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Cor 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Paul was teaching the church (body of Christ) that each member is given a Spiritual gift and all these gifts work as one within the body of Christ. Either we believe what has already been written or we turn to that of what man has written in another gospel that speaks lies against the doctrines of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, I suppose so.

I just wasn't aware that yet another spiritually blind doctrine - one with even more spiritually debilitating ramifications - originated from none other than the depths of Calvinism.

If I may, what is the documentation on that btw?

Gave that documentation in post #11.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Gave that documentation in post #11.

I wish the wiki had gone into just a little more detail. The statement is "Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists."

It doesn't actually say who it was developed by, only that it came to be particularly associated with the Calvinists.

I would assume that means it originated with them, but maybe there is no definite proof of origin, and only guilt by association.

 

[for_his_glory]

I wish the wiki had gone into just a little more detail. The statement is "Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists."

It doesn't actually say who it was developed by, only that it came to be particularly associated with the Calvinists.

I would assume that means it originated with them, but maybe there is no definite proof of origin, and only guilt by association.

I really do not know a whole lot about Calvinism or the Reformation, but it seems to me this has come out from what they teach even if it did not originate with them as seen in this thread none the less. I have heard many that are of the Calvinist say they do not believe Spiritual gifts are for today.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I really do not know a whole lot about Calvinism or the Reformation, but it seems to me this has come out from what they teach even if it did not originate with them as seen in this thread none the less. I have heard many that are of the Calvinist say they do not believe Spiritual gifts are for today.

Doctrines of demons.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The gifts have all ceased as stated they would in 1 Cor 13:8. There are no longer apostles by which they can be passed on through.

Since this is a serious issue and you will likely not give me my answer as requested in Post #6 and Post #16, how about if we at least narrow it down some. At roughly what time do you believe the last apostle went on to be with God?

 

[DJT_47]

1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (Spiritual gifts)

1Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (Spiritual gifts)

1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (Spiritual gifts)

These three verses are summed up as all within the body of Christ that the Holy Spirit gives these Spiritual gifts to whom the Spirit of God can only give. There are diversity of gifts given, but the body of Christ is one in the Spirit as each are given different gifts that all work together as one body of Christ.


1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Cor 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Paul was teaching the church (body of Christ) that each member is given a Spiritual gift and all these gifts work as one within the body of Christ. Either we believe what has already been written or we turn to that of what man has written in another gospel that speaks lies against the doctrines of Christ.

All are not given spiritual gifts. Read the interlinear, 1 Cor 12:7; it says "each" in the original Greek, not "every man", as reads the KJV. Also, God makes manifest the spirit in those he chooses. See 1 Cor 12:28 where it says "some" not all. And as recorded in Acts 8, Peter and John prayed that those in Samaria would receive gifts and then laid their hands on them to impart the gifts since the gifts, or manifestation of the Spirit, was done by the laying on of the apostle's hands. In summary, all baptized believers receive the Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38, but the manifestation of the Spirit, or gifts, is something different as well as they no longer exist but have ceased per 1 Cor 13:8-10

 

[hawkman]

Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain.

It is difficult if one looks at them from the outside. Once you are given these gifts and operate in them, it becomes quite clear.

Praise God it is clear to me !

 

[for_his_glory]

All are not given spiritual gifts. Read the interlinear, 1 Cor 12:7; it says "each" in the original Greek, not "every man", as reads the KJV. Also, God makes manifest the spirit in those he chooses. See 1 Cor 12:28 where it says "some" not all. And as recorded in Acts 8, Peter and John prayed that those in Samaria would receive gifts and then laid their hands on them to impart the gifts since the gifts, or manifestation of the Spirit, was done by the laying on of the apostle's hands. In summary, all baptized believers receive the Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38, but the manifestation of the Spirit, or gifts, is something different as well as they no longer exist but have ceased per 1 Cor 13:8-10

The diversity of these gifts of the Spirit in whom gives them to men and women as all of these gifts work as one in God's ministry as the Holy Spirit is one in all who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit who at the same time can receive several of these gifts.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Notice in vs 11 the words "to every man". Not just the disciples, but to all who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit even today and forever till Christ returns as the manifestation of these gifts are the government of God's true church being the body of Christ, not a four walled building with a name attached to it.

When I first spoke in tongues and interpreted other tongues it was either a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge for the body of Christ. My faith is by the same Spirit just as speaking healing for another. Not sure if I ever worked any miracles, but that word needs to be defined in its intent. I have given prophecy as in a word of knowledge that others needed to hear and also know how to discern the spirits whether they be of God or not. I pray in tongues and have interpreted tongues and guess what, none of the Disciples became alive in order to lay hands on me, but all given to me and many others as the Holy Spirit seems fit to give for the purpose and timing of God's ministry.