St. Mary . . .

[ezra]

Good morning sunshine
I couldn't agree more with you. It's almost sad when we think of Mary, that we have to navigate such ideas of worshiping her. It's almost like we're not allowed to give her the honor she's due in fear of resembling another denomination we disagree with.

i have no problem giving her honor she deserves honor what she went through..even though God had her protected . i dont worship or pray to her this is part i disagree and few other parts

 

[turnorburn]

The day is coming and now is when people that don't worship Mary will be killed..

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

The day is coming and now is when people that don't worship Mary will be killed..

...and now is? Is there something in international news that I should know and keep in my prayers about?

This sounds ominous even if it is a production out of the horizon. But if it is a current thing happening, then it is something that needs more attention to fix or at least pray about.

 

[MarkT]

She was His mother. The Angel told her that the child she bore was God. Hence, she was the first, even before Christ left the womb.

JosephT

The angel said Mary would conceive and bear a son and the child would be great, the Son of the Most High. The Bible says that which was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit, (therefore not necessarily of Mary though technically she was his mother.) The members of the church are likewise born of the Spirit of God. They are not born of Mary.

The Bible says she was with child of the Holy Spirit. Mt. 1:18 Indeed Jesus was the Son of God. So Mary was the mother of the Son of God. Mary was favoured by God among women. Also it was God who did the great thing for her.

Mary was a servant. She describes herself as a 'handmaid of the Lord" Luke 1:38

God did it for her; God made her the mother of our Lord Jesus who was appointed the heir of all things.
Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

He is the first and he is the last.

 

[JosephT]

The angel said Mary would conceive and bear a son and the child would be great, the Son of the Most High. The Bible says that which was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit, (therefore not necessarily of Mary though technically she was his mother.) The members of the church are likewise born of the Spirit of God. They are not born of Mary.

The Bible says she was with child of the Holy Spirit. Mt. 1:18 Indeed Jesus was the Son of God. So Mary was the mother of the Son of God. Mary was favoured by God among women. Also it was God who did the great thing for her.

Mary was a servant. She describes herself as a 'handmaid of the Lord" Luke 1:38

God did it for her; God made her the mother of our Lord Jesus who was appointed the heir of all things.
Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

He is the first and he is the last.

This was discussed in a previous post:

The simplicity of it is this, Jesus Christ is the founder and head of the Church. As members of the Church we become adopted sons and daughters of God, "But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name." [John 1:12], brothers (albeit adopted) of Jesus Christ. Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ, thus she becomes our adopted Spiritual Mother. If you abide in Jesus Christ, then Mary is your mother in spirit as well.​

Axiom:

Jesus Christ, Son of God +Those that receive Jesus Christ = Sons and daughters of God
Mary = Mother of Jesus Christ who is Son of God and Son of Mary

Hence: Mary = Spiritual Mother of those who receive Jesus Christ

Corollary:

Those who receive Jesus Christ = Church, (same as Kingdom of God, or the New Israel)
Then Mary is the Spiritual Mother of the Church -->> wherein they all have the same Spiritual Mother.

JosephT

 

[JosephT]

DNA determines fundamental and distinctive characteristic qualities of any human Person. Christ's nature isn't Divine alone, but includes the fundamentals of humanity - He is also Divine, hence the personification of Eternal Life.

Did you know science has identified certain fetomaternal cells trafficking in human life. The infant's cells carrying DNA migrate through the walls of the womb lodging in the body of the mother. In some cases these cells live for as long as months in other cases more than a year. Understanding this then we should see how the fetomaternal microchimerism found in Mary would track eternal life through Mary, igniting a spiritual and eternal life wholly and completely blessing the mother. Unlike the cells of a human child having original sin and doomed to corruption, we can easily see the physical parallel fetal chimerism cells of Christ are the DNA of divinity and will never die. [I wonder if it is a parallel but rather the course God choice; Christ, who is God, is not created rather begotten] Christ is the Personification of the Grace of Life, the Eternal Life moving through Mary's body and soul incapable of death due to sin, whereby her entire person is blessed as no other, she never knows sin.

This is beyond a "normal" 14 to 16 year old farm girl!

JosephT

 

[stovebolts]

This was discussed in a previous post:

The simplicity of it is this, Jesus Christ is the founder and head of the Church. As members of the Church we become adopted sons and daughters of God, "But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name." [John 1:12], brothers (albeit adopted) of Jesus Christ. Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ, thus she becomes our adopted Spiritual Mother. If you abide in Jesus Christ, then Mary is your mother in spirit as well.​

Axiom:

Jesus Christ, Son of God +Those that receive Jesus Christ = Sons and daughters of God
Mary = Mother of Jesus Christ who is Son of God and Son of Mary

Hence: Mary = Spiritual Mother of those who receive Jesus Christ

Corollary:

Those who receive Jesus Christ = Church, (same as Kingdom of God, or the New Israel)
Then Mary is the Spiritual Mother of the Church -->> wherein they all have the same Spiritual Mother.

JosephT

Sorry for the late reply.
Your basically saying Mary was the wife of God (God and Mary became one) and they had a child, the son of God named Jesus. Because of this, Mary is our adopted mother. Because God is our King, Mary becomes Queen.
Is that about right?

 

[JosephT]

Sorry for the late reply.


Your basically saying Mary was the wife of God (God and Mary became one) and they had a child, the son of God named Jesus. Because of this, Mary is our adopted mother. Because God is our King, Mary becomes Queen.

Is that about right?

I don’t know that I would use the term ‘wife’ of God, but there is definitely a spousal relationship being conveyed. Is it not the Angel Gabriel who tells Mary, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."? [Luke 1:35]. “Overshadowed” means “of the Holy Spirit, descending and operating in one”. In this way Mary becomes the spouse of the Holy Spirit in her abiding love and obedience which can be shown in Sacred Scripture. Mary surrenders herself eagerly saying “be it done to me according” [Luke 1:38]. As Christ was to teach later in His life such a spousal relationship is abiding and irrevocable. Consequently, Mary by consent of both God and Mary, she becomes the Mother of Jesus Christ, God, and the Spouse of the Holy Spirit having an indescribably deep spiritually union. Supposedly, this is what the fundamentalist says is happening to them when he ‘walks the aisle’ and says the words “I believe”.

This relationship is prophesized. For he that made thee shall rule over thee [husband], the Lord of hosts is his name: and thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, shall be called the God of all the earth." [Isaias 54:5]. And, “For the young man shall dwell with the virgin, and thy children shall dwell in thee. And the bridegroom shall rejoice over the bride, and thy God shall rejoice over thee." [Isaias 62:5].

Mary is the model we should follow the same way St. Paul makes examples out of the Corinthians, “For I am jealous of you with the jealousy of God. For I have espoused you to one husband that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." [2 Corinthians 11:2].

Resulting from the spiritual union is the Son of God and the Son of Mary, God and man united and inspirable in one Holy Hypostasis (Person). Having “received him” we too can become adopted sons and daughters of God through Jesus Christ. Hence, Jesus Christ becomes our brother and His Mother, Mary, becomes our adopted spiritual mother.

Mary is indeed called Mother of the Lord in scripture. Because Jesus Christ is King of heaven, our Lord and God, Mary the “mother of the Lord” becomes Queen of heaven. [Cf. Luke 1:43].

"Is that about right?" - yes but in a broad sense.

As an aside: let us pretend that Mary was not chaste, suppose she had other children, what then does that make St. Joseph? Would not the other offspring be demi-gods coming from the ark of the new covenant? What would it say about Mary and her fidelity, and her chastity? Wouldn't the child born of such a Mary be the birth of sin?

How does any person, especially a born again Protestant claiming nearly the same relationship with God without the works of grace, not honor Mary just sort of worship? How could she not be your model as well? Do you call Mary 'the blessed handmaiden of God', or are you beyond the "all generation" [Cf. Luke 1:48] having no need for honor of the Lord's spouse?

JoesphT

 

[stovebolts]

I don’t know that I would use the term ‘wife’ of God, but there is definitely a spousal relationship being conveyed. Is it not the Angel Gabriel who tells Mary, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."? [Luke 1:35]. “Overshadowed” means “of the Holy Spirit, descending and operating in one”. In this way Mary becomes the spouse of the Holy Spirit in her abiding love and obedience which can be shown in Sacred Scripture. Mary surrenders herself eagerly saying “be it done to me according” [Luke 1:38]. As Christ was to teach later in His life such a spousal relationship is abiding and irrevocable. Consequently, Mary by consent of both God and Mary, she becomes the Mother of Jesus Christ, God, and the Spouse of the Holy Spirit having an indescribably deep spiritually union. Supposedly, this is what the fundamentalist says is happening to them when he ‘walks the aisle’ and says the words “I believe”.

This relationship is prophesized. For he that made thee shall rule over thee [husband], the Lord of hosts is his name: and thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, shall be called the God of all the earth." [Isaias 54:5]. And, “For the young man shall dwell with the virgin, and thy children shall dwell in thee. And the bridegroom shall rejoice over the bride, and thy God shall rejoice over thee." [Isaias 62:5].

Mary is the model we should follow the same way St. Paul makes examples out of the Corinthians, “For I am jealous of you with the jealousy of God. For I have espoused you to one husband that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." [2 Corinthians 11:2].

Resulting from the spiritual union is the Son of God and the Son of Mary, God and man united and inspirable in one Holy Hypostasis (Person). Having “received him” we too can become adopted sons and daughters of God through Jesus Christ. Hence, Jesus Christ becomes our brother and His Mother, Mary, becomes our adopted spiritual mother.

Mary is indeed called Mother of the Lord in scripture. Because Jesus Christ is King of heaven, our Lord and God, Mary the “mother of the Lord” becomes Queen of heaven. [Cf. Luke 1:43].

"Is that about right?" - yes but in a broad sense.

As an aside: let us pretend that Mary was not chaste, suppose she had other children, what then does that make St. Joseph? Would not the other offspring be demi-gods coming from the ark of the new covenant? What would it say about Mary and her fidelity, and her chastity? Wouldn't the child born of such a Mary be the birth of sin?

How does any person, especially a born again Protestant claiming nearly the same relationship with God without the works of grace, not honor Mary just sort of worship? How could she not be your model as well? Do you call Mary 'the blessed handmaiden of God', or are you beyond the "all generation" [Cf. Luke 1:48] having no need for honor of the Lord's spouse?

JoesphT

I understand what you are saying.
One of the main concerns is what appears to be Mary Worship, which has been brought up by many of our members. Please be clear, do you worship Mary?

Years ago when I was studying Exodus, the question was asked. Why was Moses not allowed into the promised land. My response would be this.

God told Moses that Pharoah and the Egyptians would view Moses as a God. We see the same thing with the Golden Calf. Moses was nowhere in sight, so they built "another" god to take Moses place. You see, it's easy for us to elevate people to the stature of God, yes, even ourselves as so widely seen both today and yesteryear through the various cultures which span history. It was no different with Moses, and for some within the Catholic faith, it seems the same with our beloved Mary, the mother of our Lord and Savior.

Now you understand the push back you have received from many of our members. How do you address that?

 

[JosephT]

I understand what you are saying.
One of the main concerns is what appears to be Mary Worship, which has been brought up by many of our members. Please be clear, do you worship Mary?

Emphatically, No, I do not worship Mary, nor do other Catholics worship Mary.

Do Catholics attempt to emulate Mary, delight in, admire, cherish, or love Mary? Emphatically, Yes.

Do Catholics ask Mary in prayer to pray for us? Most assuredly, Yes. Mary is more alive in heaven than you or I on earth, thus we ask our spiritual mother to pray for us just as you would ask your earthly mother to pray for you.

Years ago when I was studying Exodus, the question was asked. Why was Moses not allowed into the promised land. My response would be this.

God told Moses that Pharoah and the Egyptians would view Moses as a God. We see the same thing with the Golden Calf. Moses was nowhere in sight, so they built "another" god to take Moses place. You see, it's easy for us to elevate people to the stature of God, yes, even ourselves as so widely seen both today and yesteryear through the various cultures which span history. It was no different with Moses, and for some within the Catholic faith, it seems the same with our beloved Mary, the mother of our Lord and Savior.

Now you understand the push back you have received from many of our members. How do you address that?

Then Moses got his comeuppance, didn't he? Mary is the first person in Christianity to model as a 'Christian'; being the first Christian, the first to recognize Christ as God as the Messias the first to put faith in Him, the only one who gave birth to God, the only one who nursed God, the only one who changed the soiled britches of God, [think about this one] the only one to prepare food for and feed God. She was indeed the first 'elect'. You can't claim to be any of those.

I haven't seen any real push back meaning anything, just people that don't think past their own private traditions and customs, a party of one; or better description would be a church numbering one, each member of the congregation devoiced from any 'tradition' other than their own.

JosephT

 

[stovebolts]

Emphatically, No, I do not worship Mary, nor do other Catholics worship Mary.

Do Catholics attempt to emulate Mary, delight in, admire, cherish, or love Mary? Emphatically, Yes.

Do Catholics ask Mary in prayer to pray for us? Most assuredly, Yes. Mary is more alive in heaven than you or I on earth, thus we ask our spiritual mother to pray for us just as you would ask your earthly mother to pray for you.



Then Moses got his comeuppance, didn't he? Mary is the first person model of what a 'Christian' is being the first Christian, the first to recognize Christ as God, as the messias the first to put faith in Him, the only one who gave birth to God, the only one who nursed God, the only one who changed the soiled britches of God, [think about this one] the only one to prepare food for and feed God. She was indeed the first 'elect'. You can't claim to be any of those.

I haven't seen any real push back meaning anything, just people that don't think past own private traditions and customs, a party of one; or better description would be a church numbering one, each member of the congregation devoiced from any 'tradition' other than their own.

JosephT

Actually, here is what I think...
The Catholic Church was a beauty to behold and she held together for better or worse for just over a thousand years when she split over the primacy of the Papacy, Filioque , celibacy and the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist.

It reminds me of the reign of Solomon where there was a united Kingdom, and because of Solomon's sins, the kingdom was divided. Rome, in all her beauty abused her authority and oppressed her subjects. She no longer served her patrons, but oppressed them. Had Jesus been around, we would have surely seen him over turn the tables while cracking his whip.

Out of Rome, the Protestants were born and we have been dividing every since. Yes, the church in Rome is responsible for the tens of thousands of protestant churches that now exist.

Nehemiah had nothing to do with being responsible himself for exile, yet he says,
Nehemiah 9:37 And it yieldeth much increase unto the kings whom thou hast set over us because of our sins: also they have dominion over our bodies, and over our cattle, at their pleasure, and we are in great distress.

When will Rome account for her sins? You said earlier that Catholics don't worship Mary which really isn't true. The best you can say is that the Roman Catholic church teaches that you are not to worship Mary. Even the Eastern Church regards Ineffabilis Deus as Heresy which seems to appear that the Roman Catholic church got it's comeuppance..

I understand you may feel this is an attack on the RCC. Trust me, the Protestant's have as much baggage as the RCC, and for good measure. I am not building the Protestants up by pushing the RCC down. That is not my intent.

Simply put, when both Protestants and Eastern Orthodox question your theology on Mary, don't you think you should pause and take it into consideration?

 

[JosephT]

Actually, here is what I think...
The Catholic Church was a beauty to behold and she held together for better or worse for just over a thousand years when she split over the primacy of the Papacy, Filioque , celibacy and the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist.

It reminds me of the reign of Solomon where there was a united Kingdom, and because of Solomon's sins, the kingdom was divided. Rome, in all her beauty abused her authority and oppressed her subjects. She no longer served her patrons, but oppressed them. Had Jesus been around, we would have surely seen him over turn the tables while cracking his whip.

Out of Rome, the Protestants were born and we have been dividing every since. Yes, the church in Rome is responsible for the tens of thousands of protestant churches that now exist.

Nehemiah had nothing to do with being responsible himself for exile, yet he says,
Nehemiah 9:37 And it yieldeth much increase unto the kings whom thou hast set over us because of our sins: also they have dominion over our bodies, and over our cattle, at their pleasure, and we are in great distress.

When will Rome account for her sins? You said earlier that Catholics don't worship Mary which really isn't true. The best you can say is that the Roman Catholic church teaches that you are not to worship Mary. Even the Eastern Church regards Ineffabilis Deus as Heresy which seems to appear that the Roman Catholic church got it's comeuppance..

I understand you may feel this is an attack on the RCC. Trust me, the Protestant's have as much baggage as the RCC, and for good measure. I am not building the Protestants up by pushing the RCC down. That is not my intent.

Simply put, when both Protestants and Eastern Orthodox question your theology on Mary, don't you think you should pause and take it into consideration?

Both Protestants and Eastern Orthodox are in schism which as St. Augustine says wounds the unity of faith.

Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in The Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic . For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same, inasmuch as it loves the neighbor, and consequently readily forgives the neighbor's sins, because it prays that forgiveness may be extended to itself by Him who has reconciled us to Himself, doing away with all past things, and calling us to a new life.​

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach a Divine truth divinely. To cast blame on the Catholic Church for the schismatic acts of those who chose disunion is unjust. Ask, if the reformers wanted change should the Church acquiesce to those things which it holds to be untrue? Tell me how does one reform a divine Church commissioned by the Divine to teach the Divine Word?


JosephT

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Both Protestants and Eastern Orthodox are in schism which as St. Augustine says wounds the unity of faith.

Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in The Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic . For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same, inasmuch as it loves the neighbor, and consequently readily forgives the neighbor's sins, because it prays that forgiveness may be extended to itself by Him who has reconciled us to Himself, doing away with all past things, and calling us to a new life.​

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach a Divine truth divinely. To cast blame on the Catholic Church for the schismatic acts of those who chose disunion is unjust. Ask, if the reformers wanted change should the Church acquiesce to those things which it holds to be untrue? Tell me how does one reform a divine Church commissioned by the Divine to teach the Divine Word?


JosephT

Are you sure about these conclusions JosephT?

Consider Acts 8:26-40, where Philip taught an Ethiopian. It's an interesting section, but then later I heard that when Europe was was collinizing the world they came across Ethiopia with their own church. If this info is true, and the Catholic church had no contact with them, does that count as them being catholic because they were taught by Phillip, or something else but still chrustian because there was no contact by the catholic church and possibly no knowledge of them for centuries by the church.

My hope is that God counts Protestants and Catholics as Christian. Only that He recognizes those who seek, believe, and follow God and calls them His own.

As for reform for the church. Jesus did this Himself dictating His rebukes and praise to the early church in Revelation 2-3.

Paul as well rebukes those in his letters to reform them for their errors. Teaching to settle issues as well as set some things straight.

 

[JosephT]

Are you sure about these conclusions JosephT?

Consider Acts 8:26-40, where Philip taught an Ethiopian. It's an interesting section, but then later I heard that when Europe was was collinizing the world they came across Ethiopia with their own church. If this info is true, and the Catholic church had no contact with them, does that count as them being catholic because they were taught by Phillip, or something else but still chrustian because there was no contact by the catholic church and possibly no knowledge of them for centuries by the church.

My hope is that God counts Protestants and Catholics as Christian. Only that He recognizes those who seek, believe, and follow God and calls them His own.

As for reform for the church. Jesus did this Himself dictating His rebukes and praise to the early church in Revelation 2-3.

Paul as well rebukes those in his letters to reform them for their errors. Teaching to settle issues as well as set some things straight.

It is my understanding that the Ethiopian Catholic Church is in full communion with Rome, since 1930.
JosephT

 

[stovebolts]

Both Protestants and Eastern Orthodox are in schism which as St. Augustine says wounds the unity of faith.

Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in The Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic . For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same, inasmuch as it loves the neighbor, and consequently readily forgives the neighbor's sins, because it prays that forgiveness may be extended to itself by Him who has reconciled us to Himself, doing away with all past things, and calling us to a new life.​

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach a Divine truth divinely. To cast blame on the Catholic Church for the schismatic acts of those who chose disunion is unjust. Ask, if the reformers wanted change should the Church acquiesce to those things which it holds to be untrue? Tell me how does one reform a divine Church commissioned by the Divine to teach the Divine Word?


JosephT

Our dear St. Augustine wrote those words well before the great schism of 1054. I am somewhat familiar with his Confessions and On Christian Doctrine, 486 AD well past the Arianism schism. Can you please let me know to whom St. Augustine was writing and to which schism he is referring to?

One thing you must remember is that Rome cannot stake claim as the sole owner of the Catholic Church to which even us Protestants belong.

But let us try and reconcile. Much of what you have written about St. Mary is very good and I appreciate much of what you have written. It has brought me a deeper appreciation of Mary.

I do understand that the Roman Catholic church teaches against Mary worship, yet it occurs. In the same way Protestants teach fidelity, yet many preachers find themselves with the wives of others. We are broken, and the first step to recovery is admitting we have a problem.

 

[JosephT]

Our dear St. Augustine wrote those words well before the great schism of 1054. I am somewhat familiar with his Confessions and On Christian Doctrine, 486 AD well past the Arianism schism. Can you please let me know to whom St. Augustine was writing and to which schism he is referring to?

Does the fact that he wrote it 486 A.D. suppose to mean something? Does his words mean less?

One thing you must remember is that Rome cannot stake claim as the sole owner of the Catholic Church to which even us Protestants belong.

You lost me on that one. How?

So, let me get this straight, you want to claim to be of the "Catholic Church"?

But let us try and reconcile. Much of what you have written about St. Mary is very good and I appreciate much of what you have written. It has brought me a deeper appreciation of Mary.

Thank you.

I do understand that the Roman Catholic church teaches against Mary worship, yet it occurs. In the same way Protestants teach fidelity, yet many preachers find themselves with the wives of others. We are broken, and the first step to recovery is admitting we have a problem.

?

So, when did we take the turn onto the Catholic Church and how Protestants are really Catholic and away from the thread topic, Mary. . . ?

JosephT

 

[stovebolts]

Does the fact that he wrote it 486 A.D. suppose to mean something? Does his words mean less?



You lost me on that one. How?

So, let me get this straight, you want to claim to be of the "Catholic Church"?



Thank you.


?

So, when did we take the turn onto the Catholic Church and how Protestants are really Catholic and away from the thread topic, Mary. . . ?

JosephT

Hmm.... Lots of questions. I'm afraid I don't have many answers that would be of much benifit other than to say you've written some good things about Mary.
I'm glad you do not worship her, and please guide those who hold such a deep regard for her that they do not worship her. I trust you will be a guiding light for those who inadvertantly do begin to cross that very thin line and bring them safely back to the solid rock which is Christ, the cornerstone and foundation which the universal Church ,to which we both belong is founded upon.

Grace be with you.

 

[MarkT]

Emphatically, No, I do not worship Mary, nor do other Catholics worship Mary.

Do Catholics attempt to emulate Mary, delight in, admire, cherish, or love Mary? Emphatically, Yes.

Do Catholics ask Mary in prayer to pray for us? Most assuredly, Yes. Mary is more alive in heaven than you or I on earth, thus we ask our spiritual mother to pray for us just as you would ask your earthly mother to pray for you.



Then Moses got his comeuppance, didn't he? Mary is the first person in Christianity to model as a 'Christian'; being the first Christian, the first to recognize Christ as God as the Messias the first to put faith in Him, the only one who gave birth to God, the only one who nursed God, the only one who changed the soiled britches of God, [think about this one] the only one to prepare food for and feed God. She was indeed the first 'elect'. You can't claim to be any of those.

I haven't seen any real push back meaning anything, just people that don't think past their own private traditions and customs, a party of one; or better description would be a church numbering one, each member of the congregation devoiced from any 'tradition' other than their own.

JosephT

Praying to Mary is worshipping Mary. Making statues and graven images of Mary is idolatry.

In what sense can Mary be a role model? She believed the angel? OK What else did she do? She raised the child. So women should raise children? OK Perhaps a role model for women.

Paul said,
1 Timothy 2:15
Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Matthew 12:48
But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
Matthew 12:49
And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!
Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Here Jesus is relating his disciples to himself while Mary and his brothers stood outside.

Was this teaching from Jesus or was it from Mary? Is Mary our Teacher? No. Jesus is our Teacher. He taught us God is our Father. He didn't say anything about Mary being our Mother.

So Mary was a servant. She played an important part in the life of our Lord, but Jesus had to separate himself from his earthly mother to begin his ministry.
John 2:4
And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

 

[MarkT]

This was discussed in a previous post:

The simplicity of it is this, Jesus Christ is the founder and head of the Church. As members of the Church we become adopted sons and daughters of God, "But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name." [John 1:12], brothers (albeit adopted) of Jesus Christ. Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ, thus she becomes our adopted Spiritual Mother. If you abide in Jesus Christ, then Mary is your mother in spirit as well.​

Axiom:

Jesus Christ, Son of God +Those that receive Jesus Christ = Sons and daughters of God
Mary = Mother of Jesus Christ who is Son of God and Son of Mary

Hence: Mary = Spiritual Mother of those who receive Jesus Christ

Corollary:

Those who receive Jesus Christ = Church, (same as Kingdom of God, or the New Israel)
Then Mary is the Spiritual Mother of the Church -->> wherein they all have the same Spiritual Mother.

JosephT

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." Gal.4:4-5

So Jesus was sent by God. He was 'born of woman' which means he was a man, as man is born of woman. Job 14:1, 25:4

This does not make Mary our adopted mother. That's not in the Bible. It makes Mary Jesus' mother according to the flesh and the law.

for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.) 1 Cor. 11:12

John says the Word became flesh; that's our spiritual understanding. There's nothing in the Bible about Mary being spiritual or a spiritual mother or the Spiritual Mother of the church.

 

[JohnDB]

Dang,
And I was hoping that this was a thread about the church on top of Mount Carmel.

Oh well...
Continue on.