Sticking up for our Catholic Brethren

[cyberjosh]

This is a ridiculas statement...You should really think about what your saying?
It appears you have been caught up by all the lies....

Wait...You disagree with my OP? Joe said that my OP may mark me negatively (because I took a stand for what I thought was right). I said "bring it on" to indicate that I would stick to my OP's position regardless of what people think, because I believe it is in the spirit of Christ: reconcilliation rather than division. One body, one Spirit.

Trust me though, I'm not pro-Catholic. I disagree with many Catholic teachings. I just made this thread to prevent "Catholic-hating" (especially if they are brothers or sisters in Christ). I've seen some vehement bashing against Catholics going on in the recent threads. This is a call for sanity and common decency. I hope you can appreciate that.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

agree....What kind of fruit is the catholic church putting out?....
History suggest, rotten to the core fruit......

What about individual catholics? This is a tough one to answer...
''Ann'' has always shown good fruit, even when she was not born again? How and why? Because she was ''working for her salvation''

To clear up any possible confusion, I made the OP with reference to individuals who are truely our fellow saved brothers and sisters in Chirst who are in the Catholic Church. I never defended the Catholic Church or Catholic doctrines.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

I agree. And I appreciate the illustration of this in the testimonies by Javier and Michael. I hope the Catholics here realize that we love you and we are sincerely worried for you (and others) who might be trapped and deceived by the unbiblical doctrines and traditions in the institution of the Catholic Church. I hope you do know Jesus! You are in our prayers.

Amen. I agree 100%.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[sisterchristian]

I refer to those who sincerely believed, not those who just attend the Catholic Church.

God Bless,

~Josh

How could that be, that if someone is truly a believer, that they have in fact accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour and are born again, how can they grow in a Catholic Church?

 

[mondar]

I come here now to stand as a voice of reason and tolerance amidst any temptation to shun our Catholic Brethren because of doctrinal differences.

We may disagree on transsubstantiation, but we would all agree that our source and essence of eternal life is Jesus Christ by his sacrificial blood as conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit.

I find this evanjelly fish attitude deadly. I am not against individual catholic people and recognize that many Catholics are saved. One such Catholic could be on this BB, Robert. However, as Robert knows he is not saved because he is Catholic. Such Catholics are saved in spite of being Catholic.

Their Church preaches another gospel. They preach that justification comes both by faith in Christ and works.

The great danger of your post is that it is not theologically discerning enough to see the official doctrines of Rome are "another gospel." Justification by faith ALONE is the core issue which began the protestant reformation. Catholics commonly use the trick of saying "we believe in justification by faith, and leave off the word "ALONE." By this they are saying that faith is only one part of justification, and works are the other part. This is unacceptable to me and it is "another gospel."

The RCC in the council of Trent has declared protestants like me "anathema." Oddly enough, the word anathema (to be cursed), comes strait from Galatians 1:8.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

A denial of justification by faith ALONE is another Gospel. Those who preach works in justification are not my brothers in the Lord with which I need to be in unity with.

While some Catholics refuse to confess the errors of Rome and are my brothers in the Lord, I will never accept those who believe official Catholic Dogma that denies justification by faith ALONE.

 

[cyberjosh]

I find this evanjelly fish attitude deadly. I am not against individual catholic people and recognize that many Catholics are saved. One such Catholic could be on this BB, Robert. However, as Robert knows he is not saved because he is Catholic. Such Catholics are saved in spite of being Catholic.

Just to clarify my attempt in this thread was to create a one-directional pursuit to those things we know are true in the Bible, to the eventual if not inevitable neglect of all things doubtful (this means dropping transsubstatiation - which does not insure any assurance of security of salvation) while pursuing the essense of all these things: Christ. It's one directional in that that I was pointing to the core, essential doctrines of the Gospel, while I was not condoning defecting (the other direction - or perhaps a side-slip) to Catholic doctrine. That is all I have to say. Really this thread came up as a response to the Catholic bashing crisis we had here for a while. Luckily the moderators have now enacted new ordinances that no new Catholic threads are to be made.

Secondly, and I say this with meekness, but I don't know how many times I've requested people not to judge another persons salvation. God says not to! You cannot know the inner condition of a person's heart, and anything out side of faith is sin! Nonetheless I digress. I just don't like saying "so and so, who is a professing Christian, is not saved." A servant of the master stands or falls before Him only.

Their Church preaches another gospel.

Yes they do have different doctrine, far too legalistic (or should I say sacramentalistic) for my taste.

They preach that justification comes both by faith in Christ and works.

Well there is a difference between legalistic rituals and works. Works must be present as the expression of faith (James 2). And if you'll notice, what did Jesus say to all seven Churches in Revelations?: "I know your works".

The great danger of your post is that it is not theologically discerning enough to see the official doctrines of Rome are "another gospel."

This was not syncretism with the RCC way of thought, but rather a discarding of all extraneous doctrines to focus on the core of Chirst. I do not approve of RCC doctrines, and I do wish that they would seriously reform.

Justification by faith ALONE is the core issue which began the protestant reformation. Catholics commonly use the trick of saying "we believe in justification by faith, and leave off the word "ALONE." By this they are saying that faith is only one part of justification, and works are the other part. This is unacceptable to me and it is "another gospel."

Well if they are trying to, having begun in the spirit, be made perfect in the flesh (Galatians 3:3) then they most certainly commit the fallacy of the Galatians and the Judaizers.

While some Catholics refuse to confess the errors of Rome and are my brothers in the Lord, I will never accept those who believe official Catholic Dogma that denies justification by faith ALONE.

Fair enough. Salvation is by God's grace alone, "lest any man should boast". But do remember we are expected to commit good works, but they are to be "wrought in God".

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[smiling_grin]

and I might add - Mary, who is equal to Christ Our Lord, The saints, the Congregation of Papal Authority, the history and tradition of the only true church (RC), Peter who founded the Church, blah, blah, blah on and on!

We Catholics don't think that Mary is equal to Christ Our Lord. Nor do we worship her.

 

[smiling_grin]

I find this evanjelly fish attitude deadly. I am not against individual catholic people and recognize that many Catholics are saved.

I'm not against other Christians either, just sharing what I believe. :

One such Catholic could be on this BB, Robert. However, as Robert knows he is not saved because he is Catholic. Such Catholics are saved in spite of being Catholic.

How do you know who will be saved and who won't?

 

[mondar]

How do you know who will be saved and who won't?

I dont

On the other hand, Galatians 1:9 says that if anyone preaches another gospel, let him be anathema. Rome preaches another gospel, a false gospel.

Justification does not have works in it. I do not view Rome's baptism, Rome's sacraments, or anything Rome does as contributing to my salvation in any way. Works are always the fruits of justification, and never the cause of it. Works never contribute to justification. Of course the anathema I believe belongs to Rome, Rome has pronounced upon me. Your council of Trent makes it clear that all who believe salvation is by grace alone through faith alone are anathema.

I consider Trents position on Justification to be heresy, I also consider Romes position on sola scriptura to be apostacy.

I see Rome's doctrine of pergatory and if a person is purified by his own suffering in pergatory, then why did Christ die? I am purified by his sufferings. Read Isaiah 53 and tell me if Christ did not pay "ALL" the penalty.

There are many other issues, but this will suffice to let you know, I do not consider Rome my ally. Nevertheless, being a part of the Roman system does not mean one believes the dogma coming from Rome. I said what I said about Robert, because I dont think he believes in Roman dogma. He could be saved. Why would you think he is not?

 

[Solo]

How do you know who will be saved and who won't?

I dont

I do.

 

[smiling_grin]

I dont

On the other hand, Galatians 1:9 says that if anyone preaches another gospel, let him be anathema. Rome preaches another gospel, a false gospel.

Justification does not have works in it. I do not view Rome's baptism, Rome's sacraments, or anything Rome does as contributing to my salvation in any way. Works are always the fruits of justification, and never the cause of it. Works never contribute to justification. Of course the anathema I believe belongs to Rome, Rome has pronounced upon me. Your council of Trent makes it clear that all who believe salvation is by grace alone through faith alone are anathema.

I consider Trents position on Justification to be heresy, I also consider Romes position on sola scriptura to be apostacy.

I see Rome's doctrine of pergatory and if a person is purified by his own suffering in pergatory, then why did Christ die? I am purified by his sufferings. Read Isaiah 53 and tell me if Christ did not pay "ALL" the penalty.

There are many other issues, but this will suffice to let you know, I do not consider Rome my ally. Nevertheless, being a part of the Roman system does not mean one believes the dogma coming from Rome. I said what I said about Robert, because I dont think he believes in Roman dogma. He could be saved. Why would you think he is not?

The Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but reading (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12) I'm being saved, and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12),being hopeful in the promises of Christ ( 2 Tim. 2:11–13,Rom. 5:2,).
Anyway, Christ does pay for all our penalty. Purgatory is like cleansing our soul. I hope this helped.

 

[smiling_grin]

Michael
What a great and awsome testimony...Praise God.............
There is a lady named Ann (not her real name as she guest this site from time to time) that attends my Sunday School now....Prior the only time she was able to hear the Gospel message was at school functions...and she too was trapped in the catholic church...One day in a conversation with my wife over Music (my wife loves Christian music ) ''ann'' explained to her that her priest is against music and is not allowed by the church...Anyway, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit through my wife, she became born again and was followed by her husband and children being born again praise God....

Really? At my Catholic church, there is a ton of music, and it's really nice. I love to sing along with the choir. I've never heard of a catholic church that banned music

 

[mondar]

The Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but reading (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12) I'm being saved, and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12),being hopeful in the promises of Christ ( 2 Tim. 2:11–13,Rom. 5:2,).
Anyway, Christ does pay for all our penalty. Purgatory is like cleansing our soul. I hope this helped.

This misses the point of justification.

Also, I have always thought the Roman teaching on purgatory to be double talk. If we have the imputation of Christs righteous (rm 4:3), and we are "in Christ" how can purgatory improve on Christs righteousness?

I was just in a conversation about Romans 8:1. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ. With Christ, I am already clean and do not need purgatory. Salvation is complete in Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

This misses the point of justification.

Also, I have always thought the Roman teaching on purgatory to be double talk. If we have the imputation of Christs righteous (rm 4:3), and we are "in Christ" how can purgatory improve on Christs righteousness?

I was just in a conversation about Romans 8:1. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ. With Christ, I am already clean and do not need purgatory. Salvation is complete in Christ.

The Bible doesn't say that a person will always remain in Christ, once receiving Him, no matter what. The Bible clearly tells us that a person is NOT in Christ when He commits serious sins - OR disobeys God.

Regards

 

[Solo]

The Bible doesn't say that a person will always remain in Christ, once receiving Him, no matter what. The Bible clearly tells us that a person is NOT in Christ when He commits serious sins - OR disobeys God.

Regards

Where does the Bible clearly tell us that a person is NOT in Christ when He commits sins - OR disobeys God?


Beware - Roman Catholic twisting and turning with a possible lie or two thrown in for good measure on its way!

 

[smiling_grin]

This misses the point of justification.

Also, I have always thought the Roman teaching on purgatory to be double talk. If we have the imputation of Christs righteous (rm 4:3), and we are "in Christ" how can purgatory improve on Christs righteousness?

I was just in a conversation about Romans 8:1. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ. With Christ, I am already clean and do not need purgatory. Salvation is complete in Christ.

Why does the Bible tell us (I'm 99% sure) to pray for the deceased? Those in heaven don't need us to pray for them, and people in hell can not get out-- it is eternal punishment. So then who do we pray for?

 

[Solo]

Why does the Bible tell us (I'm 99% sure) to pray for the deceased? Those in heaven don't need us to pray for them, and people in hell can not get out-- it is eternal punishment. So then who do we pray for?

Where does the Bible tell us to pray for the deceased?

 

[Justmee]

Really? At my Catholic church, there is a ton of music, and it's really nice. I love to sing along with the choir. I've never heard of a catholic church that banned music

Hi there Smiling_Grin! I'm Sara. Glad you have joined this forum! Welcome.
Although I come from a protestant background I am with you about the music. I thought Church Of Christ or Disciples Of Christ was the only place that did not allow music in worship services. That sounds way out there like that Priest has a beef about something. I can't imagine a service without praising our Creator in song. Afterall, isn't that what the entire book of Psalms is all about? :smt035

 

[Atonement]

smiling_grin

I would also like to see where it say's we should pray to or for the dead?

 

[francisdesales]

Where does the Bible clearly tell us that a person is NOT in Christ when He commits sins - OR disobeys God?

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:5-7

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2: 2-4

Who is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life again?

Put two and two together. If you willingly walk in darkness, if you willingly sin, you don't have the TRUTH within you. Nor do you have the Holy Spirit, for that matter...

And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32

Regards