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Sticking up for our Catholic Brethren

smiling_grin said:
I don't think "pray for the dead" is the right term.

I'm looking for it, I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere...either I misread or made a mistake.

Anyway, here's a good way to describe purgatory in the way we Catholics believe:
http://forum.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=2492840&postcount=65
Click to expand...

deceased, dead, past away, gone, or whatever you want to call it, it's all the same. People who have DIED.. I don't think you'll find it
 
francisdesales said:
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:5-7

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2: 2-4

Who is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life again?

Put two and two together. If you willingly walk in darkness, if you willingly sin, you don't have the TRUTH within you. Nor do you have the Holy Spirit, for that matter...

And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32

Regards
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Joe,

Thank you for confirming that you do not understand the process of being born of God, born again; and the culmination of the justification, sanctification, and glorification of the Believer in his redemption at the resurrection of the body when Jesus Christ returns. At this moment, the new creature born of the Spirit is joined with the new resurrected flesh.

Until the return of Christ Jesus, that which is born of the flesh remains flesh in which no good thing dwells; however, all believers have been born of the Spirit which is the Spiritual New Creature of the Inward Man that battles with the corrupt sinful flesh.

Do believers continue to sin? The born of the Spirit inward man New Creature does not continue to sin, but the corrupt flesh born of the flesh continues to sin.

Does sin keep the believer from being redeemed of his sinful flesh at the return of Jesus Christ? No. It is at that point that the sinful corrupt flesh is done away with.

The flesh is sinful from the birth of the flesh until the change or resurrection at Jesus' return. At that time the corrupt will put on incorruption, and the mortal will put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)
 
Atonement said:
By the way Smiling_grin we are only using your verbiage..
Click to expand...

I know, I didn't know how to put it, sorry.
I'm not very good at explaining stuff. But anyway, I know I read it somewhere, because when I read it, it caught my attention: I never knew before.
 
Solo said:
Joe,

Thank you for confirming that you do not understand the process of being born of God, born again;
Click to expand...

You mean "according to me", not according to the Word of God. It is clear from our conversations that we read the Scriptures differently. Being born again doesn't mean we cannot return to sin.

Solo said:
...and the culmination of the justification, sanctification, and glorification of the Believer in his redemption at the resurrection of the body when Jesus Christ returns. At this moment, the new creature born of the Spirit is joined with the new resurrected flesh.
Click to expand...

The new creation is not some ontological change that overrides man's freedom to choose to have faith and to follow Christ in our daily lives. The new creation merely means we have been given the tools to follow Him - Grace. We can choose to utilize the grace given to us - or not. If we choose not to follow Christ in our daily lives and return to the ways of sin as before, are we saved TODAY? Hardly. Our slavery to sin clearly is proof that we are not saved from our wicked ways. We are told to believe and obey - in the present tense. To pick up our cross DAILY, not one day in the past. We are told that those who believe (present tense) are the ones who have eternal life, not the ones who believed once in their past life. You may believe otherwise, but the Bible clearly tells us that the Spirit works within those who believe and obey, not someone who made some declaration 20 years ago.

Solo said:
Until the return of Christ Jesus, that which is born of the flesh remains flesh in which no good thing dwells; however, all believers have been born of the Spirit which is the Spiritual New Creature of the Inward Man that battles with the corrupt sinful flesh.
Click to expand...

That dualism is proven false when one considers that Christ came IN THE FLESH. You are confusing FOLLOWING the Flesh and the Spirit with the flesh ITSELF. IF the flesh is worthless, than Christ's death in the FLESH was worthless, as well... You are merely resurrecting the heresy prevalent among the Gnostics - a dualism that sees the flesh as evil, an anchor that keeps man's spirit from ascending to God. This is all from a misunderstanding of the greatest thing that ever happened in the history of mankind - the Incarnation.

Solo said:
Do believers continue to sin? The born of the Spirit inward man New Creature does not continue to sin, but the corrupt flesh born of the flesh continues to sin.
Click to expand...

Oh, is that your explanation? So if you commit a major sin, you are going to go before God and tell Him that it wasn't really you that sinned, but your evil twin attached to you??? Sorry, that isn't going to fly. YOU will be judged, not Christ's righteousness. Since even Christians will be judged, it follows that our actions will be the determination of whether we had faith or not - since good works are the result of faith, a faithless person will NOT bring forth good works. The evil works of a person show his faith, not some proclamation. 1 John makes that clear.

Solo said:
Does sin keep the believer from being redeemed of his sinful flesh at the return of Jesus Christ? No. It is at that point that the sinful corrupt flesh is done away with.
Click to expand...

Our sin is the only thing that keeps us from God. Why? Because sin is a rejection of God. Tell me how are you going to reject God and at the same time say you have faith in God??? Your double-talk is sad, Mike, especially because you don't see it...

Regards
 
Atonement said:
deceased, dead, past away, gone, or whatever you want to call it, it's all the same. People who have DIED.. I don't think you'll find it
Click to expand...
Okay, maybe I was wrong. Maybe I read it on another forum and the poster was mistaken. I do remember reading it somewhere, probably on a foorum post (not this one.) I read so many things and sometimes I get mixed up. sorry if I was wrong.
 
smiling_grin said:
Okay, maybe I was wrong. Maybe I read it on another forum and the poster was mistaken. I do remember reading it somewhere, probably on a foorum post (not this one.) I read so many things and sometimes I get mixed up. sorry if I was wrong.
Click to expand...
Ah.......here it is.


1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to

2 Macc. 12:44-46 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
(For if he had not hoped that the that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

45And because he considered that the who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

46It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.


Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, an. In Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

However, there's A TON more from the source http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
Biblical evidence (and most of it ISN'T from the Apocrypha).
 
grin... this is from a post of mine in the "Mormonism" thread. Very timely indeed. It's a must read for those who insist on interpreting this passage as though it were a commandment for the church:

I got this from CARM a couple of weeks ago, It was used in my discussion of this on the other Site I mentioned.

Quote:
But, the Mormons are incorrect. They have usurped this verse and taken it out of context. So, let's examine 1 Cor. 15 briefly so we can see what Paul is talking about when he mentions baptism for the dead.

In Verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ is the first one raised -- in a glorified body -- and then who are His at His return. Next, verses 24 - 29 mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mention by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.2 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we. This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.
Click to expand...
http://www.carm.org/questions/baptismfordead.htm
 
francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Joe,

Thank you for confirming that you do not understand the process of being born of God, born again;
Click to expand...
You mean "according to me", not according to the Word of God. It is clear from our conversations that we read the Scriptures differently. Being born again doesn't mean we cannot return to sin.
Click to expand...
No where does the Scriptures teach that a born again believer does not remain in his sinful corrupt mortal flesh. The flesh is not cleaned at the moment of being born again, but the NEW CREATURE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD does not sin. How many times have you heard this truth and completely ignored and/or rejected it? Every time you heard it. Why? Because you refuse to come to the light and be born again.

francisdesales said:
Solo said:
...and the culmination of the justification, sanctification, and glorification of the Believer in his redemption at the resurrection of the body when Jesus Christ returns. At this moment, the new creature born of the Spirit is joined with the new resurrected flesh.
Click to expand...
The new creation is not some ontological change that overrides man's freedom to choose to have faith and to follow Christ in our daily lives. The new creation merely means we have been given the tools to follow Him - Grace. We can choose to utilize the grace given to us - or not. If we choose not to follow Christ in our daily lives and return to the ways of sin as before, are we saved TODAY? Hardly. Our slavery to sin clearly is proof that we are not saved from our wicked ways. We are told to believe and obey - in the present tense. To pick up our cross DAILY, not one day in the past. We are told that those who believe (present tense) are the ones who have eternal life, not the ones who believed once in their past life. You may believe otherwise, but the Bible clearly tells us that the Spirit works within those who believe and obey, not someone who made some declaration 20 years ago.
Click to expand...
And again you show your ignorance to the truth of GOD'S SALVATION through the JUSTIFICATION (Righteousness) of JESUS CHRIST, the daily SANCTIFICATION (Being Set Apart) of the HOLY SPIRIT, and the GLORIFICATION (being fully redeemed body, soul, and spirit) of GOD'S NEW CREATION never having been alive prior. JESUS CHRIST and HIS FIRST FRUITS.

If you ever become born again, you too will understand all that God Almighty has to offer of HIMSELF in the SALVATION THAT HE FREELY gives to us.

francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Until the return of Christ Jesus, that which is born of the flesh remains flesh in which no good thing dwells; however, all believers have been born of the Spirit which is the Spiritual New Creature of the Inward Man that battles with the corrupt sinful flesh.
Click to expand...
That dualism is proven false when one considers that Christ came IN THE FLESH. You are confusing FOLLOWING the Flesh and the Spirit with the flesh ITSELF. IF the flesh is worthless, than Christ's death in the FLESH was worthless, as well... You are merely resurrecting the heresy prevalent among the Gnostics - a dualism that sees the flesh as evil, an anchor that keeps man's spirit from ascending to God. This is all from a misunderstanding of the greatest thing that ever happened in the history of mankind - the Incarnation.
Click to expand...
Once again your ignorance of GOD'S GREATEST GIFT TO MANKIND is telling. It is by your words that one can know your position apart from Jesus Christ. You lack the understanding of Jesus' teaching of needing to be born, not only of the flesh; but also of the Spirit. You call it duality and call Jesus a liar with your ignorant comment, any God should send you to hell just for that; however, HE is a loving, patient, merciful God and he will continue to send you the truth until you die. At that time there will be no mercy for your soul as you have continued to live in the lies built of your own definition of righteousness.

francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Do believers continue to sin? The born of the Spirit inward man New Creature does not continue to sin, but the corrupt flesh born of the flesh continues to sin.
Click to expand...
Oh, is that your explanation? So if you commit a major sin, you are going to go before God and tell Him that it wasn't really you that sinned, but your evil twin attached to you??? Sorry, that isn't going to fly. YOU will be judged, not Christ's righteousness. Since even Christians will be judged, it follows that our actions will be the determination of whether we had faith or not - since good works are the result of faith, a faithless person will NOT bring forth good works. The evil works of a person show his faith, not some proclamation. 1 John makes that clear.
Click to expand...
God does not see the sins of a born again believer. HIS GRACE supplants the righteousness of HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST in its stead. Only those who are not BORN AGAIN will be condemned for their sin. A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER HAS HAD HIS SIN DEBT PAID. Hang on to your sin though, because you are going to pay for every single one that you have ever committed.
francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Does sin keep the believer from being redeemed of his sinful flesh at the return of Jesus Christ? No. It is at that point that the sinful corrupt flesh is done away with.
Click to expand...
Our sin is the only thing that keeps us from God. Why? Because sin is a rejection of God. Tell me how are you going to reject God and at the same time say you have faith in God??? Your double-talk is sad, Mike, especially because you don't see it...
Click to expand...
Your sin keeps you from God because you reject God and His SON JESUS CHRIST by refusing HIS SALVATION in JESUS through the SPIRIT. A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER WILL NEVER REJECT GOD, but you have rejected HIM BEFORE BEING BORN AGAIN.

Your understanding of GOD's SALVATION reveals your ignorance in the matter.

May God have mercy on your soul.
 
vic C. said:
grin... this is from a post of mine in the "Mormonism" thread. Very timely indeed. It's a must read for those who insist on interpreting this passage as though it were a commandment for the church:
Click to expand...

1Cor 15 and baptism of the dead is not a commandment, but a valid practice, according to Paul. It is evident that Christians were indeed curious about the afterlife and KNEW that they were able to pray for them. This is evidenced in Judaism by 2 Macc 150 years before Christ - whether you believe this is Scripture or not, it still shows a valid practice and belief.

Also, archeological evidence of the second century AD makes it clear that Christians prayed for the departed - as seen by tombstone markers and grafitee. Other Jewish inter-testimental literature show that theology of the day had considered that prayers for the sake of the dead were valid and effective.

Naturally, this idea, similar to the idea of resurrection, came from the development of Judaism in contact with Hellenism. These are all valid traditions that are not once refuted in the NT Scriptures. They were part of everyday life that the Apostles did not find repulsive - asking God for mercy for a departed soul is not exactly something that would go against His desires for us here on earth.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
1Cor 15 and baptism of the dead is not a commandment, but a valid practice, according to Paul. It is evident that Christians were indeed curious about the afterlife and KNEW that they were able to pray for them. This is evidenced in Judaism by 2 Macc 150 years before Christ - whether you believe this is Scripture or not, it still shows a valid practice and belief.

Also, archeological evidence of the second century AD makes it clear that Christians prayed for the departed - as seen by tombstone markers and grafitee. Other Jewish inter-testimental literature show that theology of the day had considered that prayers for the sake of the dead were valid and effective.

Naturally, this idea, similar to the idea of resurrection, came from the development of Judaism in contact with Hellenism. These are all valid traditions that are not once refuted in the NT Scriptures. They were part of everyday life that the Apostles did not find repulsive - asking God for mercy for a departed soul is not exactly something that would go against His desires for us here on earth.

Regards
Click to expand...

frances - forgive me for perhaps being dense here, but where does Paul say that it is a valid practice?

God's mercy is shown to us while we are on earth, and it is realized after we die. In other word's it has already been decided at the point of death. There is not effecieincy in asking for mercy after the person dies.
 
aLoneVoice said:
frances - forgive me for perhaps being dense here, but where does Paul say that it is a valid practice?

God's mercy is shown to us while we are on earth, and it is realized after we die. In other word's it has already been decided at the point of death. There is not effecieincy in asking for mercy after the person dies.
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Thanks! Paul nowhere is condoning this PAGAN practice. This whs part of my point; Paul says "they" not "we" in the verse.

1 Cor 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

THEY, as in heathens in the nearby Pagan city of Eleusis. This whole passage is about the Resurrection, not baptism. You can't just derive doctrine from passages that don't pertain to the so-called doctrine.. and you can not ignore history just to justify adhering to a questionable doctrine. The Orthodox got it right when they denounced this pagan practice a couple hundred years later.

Please read the link I provided and for some more info:

http://www.irr.org/mit/baptdead.html

Now if want your church to be associated with this errant Mormon practice, be my guest... I want no part of condoning it or the Hellenistic rituals carried over from Jewish customs.
 
There's a reason why the LDS church wants this doctrine to be true and why they practice it. Mormonism isn't but about 150 years old. Baptising for the dead allows them to "Make Mormons" from those who were born before Joseph Smith. Also, if one of their family that died in the past did not accept Mormonism or in some other way were not Mormon then they baptise them as Mormons by proxy. In other words, those who weren't mormon will be after the so called baptism.
Now, I don't know about anyone else here but if my grandfather wasn't christian and I "baptise" him that sure doesn't mean that "Presto!" he's christian and will be saved.
rolleyes.gif
 
Potluck said:
There's a reason why the LDS church wants this doctrine to be true and why they practice it. Mormonism isn't but about 150 years old. Baptising for the dead allows them to "Make Mormons" from those who were born before Joseph Smith. Also, if one of their family that died in the past did not accept Mormonism or in some other way were not Mormon then they baptise them as Mormons by proxy. In other words, those who weren't mormon will be after the so called baptism.
Now, I don't know about anyone else here but if my grandfather wasn't christian and I "baptise" him that sure doesn't mean that "Presto!" he's christian and will be saved.
rolleyes.gif
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Catholics don't baptize the dead (or the unborn). It's just a point that's all.
 
smiling_grin said:
Catholics don't baptize the dead (or the unborn). It's just a point that's all.
Click to expand...

Of course they don't baptise for the dead. The practice is not biblical.
But Mormons do. One must ask what results are expected for doing so and are those results taught in the bible. Paul asks a question and the Mormons take it up like it's a christian truth to suit their own purposes. Baptising for dead simply is not a scriptural truth. I can't make anyone a christian, a mormon or muslim by baptising them after they die.
 
So,

In accepting the CC as a valid spiritual 'brotherhood' should we EMBRACE their practices as well as the individuals? Should we hesitate to point out to others the practices that they follow that we KNOW to be WRONGfUL?

As we are to love EVEN our enemies we are CERTAINLY to love our Catholic brothers and sisters as well. But that does NOT alter the FACT that we should CERTAINLY 'stand up' and fight for what is RIGHTEOUS and PURE.

Bowing to a POPE and offering him WORSHIP is NOT what we have been taught in the Word. NOT EVEN the apostles would allow this type of honor to placed upon THEM, (those that were ACTUALLY IMPOWERED by Christ HIMSELF). So HOW could a 'religion' of Christianity be TRUSTED that would follow such 'man-made' teachings? And HOW could these that follow such teachings be 'trusted' to TRULY be following ONE God and ONE SON? Dangerous indeed to trust in 'man-made' teachings that DO NOT follow The Word and 'political correctness' will mean LITTLE when one is held accountable for NOT pointing out the errors that our brothers may circum to. For causing one to 'stumble' is JUST as likely to be something that we DO as something that we DO NOT DO.

As has been offered on NUMEROUS occasions; we are certainly NOT to persecute our brothers and sisters simply because they have followed 'false teachings', but we are CERTAINLY not to attempt to EMBRACE such either and ARE accountable to WARN those that we CLEARLY SEE following FALSE DOCTRINE. Political corrctness will NOT be 'an excuse' upon 'judgement'.

MEC
 
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