Sticking up for our Catholic Brethren

[stranger]

Imagican wrote:
In reference to the debate of 'prayer for the dead', I don't know that it could either help or hurt but I have found NO biblical reference to it having ANY effect on the JUDGEMENT of God. There HAVE been instances where men were able to intercede to alter God's intentions concerning the LIVING, but I have found NO instance of men being able to alter God's Intentions to the DEAD.
. . .

Hi MEC,

Every time I attend a funeral we pray for the dead - it is good to commit the person into the hands of God and it is good to plead for God's mercy on their behalf. This happens at funeral services and is the normal practice at least at Christian funerals. Does this affect the judgment of God? In the above context which is readily practised universally (I assume) prayers have effect - otherwise prayering out funerals would be reduced to a mere courtesy. Also we would have to say pray in all circumstances except at funerals.

In scripture Elijah pushed and was pushed past 'conventional boundaries'. He raised the widows son and was taken to the valley of bones where God asked him 'Can these bones live'?
So while it is always God at work - the instrument , in this instance- 'Elijah' is used and his talking to God is prayer. So it depends on how we view prayer or limit it in our convential understanding. There is the perspective that before the final judgement there is always hope - is there not?

 

[francisdesales]

francis - you said that there are examples of vicarious 'salvation". Of this is where I challenged you.

I understand that healing work of Christ - the physical healings - that is NOT the same thing as salvation.

Also, the verses you provided does not speak to "salvation".

It would seem that you and I disagree on what "salvation" means.

Apparently. That's "OK". Since you believe in "Sola Scriptura", your opinion is as good as the next person, so it will never be known what God HIMSELF means by "salvation", only what one culls from his own resources and reading ability...

I guess God expects only the person who can read commentaries (and read, period) to grace His presence in the afterlife. Only the smart people will be in heaven, for those who actually buy into Sola Scriptura...

And in regards to limiting God - God limits Himself through His Holy Word - God cannot operate outside of His Word. If God does, then He violates His Word - and His Word would no longer have any authority.

You are joking, right? God's Word found in the Bible is only PART of HIS revelation to mankind. It is not His complete revelation. Jesus Christ is the complete revelation to mankind, at least in this life. God cannot operate outside His Word, you say. However, what exactly IS the MEANING of this Word??? If we line up 10 Protestants, we'd get 12 opinions on even very important subjects, like "what does salvation mean?" or "does God save man through baptism?", or numerous other "important" questions... These boards show the fatal error of the Protestant idea of individual bible interpretation.

We are human. Our understanding of Scriptures (you and me) is not, nor will it EVER be perfect in this life. You are coming across as quite arrogant to tell me HOW God is limited by "His Word". Know this. There were a lot of Jews who THOUGHT they understood God's Word. They read the Scriptures all the time and worshipped the Lord. Yet, many completely missed His revelation. What makes you think a fallible human will understand God's ways completely, even after the coming of the Holy Spirit in a new way? If God decides to save men through the actions of other men, who are we to complain? Have you considered that your understanding of the Scriptures may be incorrect and that God doesn't have to answer to your understanding of His Word???

God can operate outside of YOUR UNDERSTANDING of His Word.

Regards

 

[Solo]

And those who adhere to the lies of Roman Catholicism follow the blind into the ditch. What a shame!

One good point is that they will all think that they are in purgatory awaiting someone to pray them out of their torment into God's Kingdom. :wink:

That is the only good point for they will never leave what they have been taught is purgatory!

 

[Guest]

francis -

• Can God operate outside of the Written Word?
  
  Can God operate in a way different from the Written Word?
  
  Does the Writen Word contain all that we need to know of God?
  
  Can Jesus Christ contradict the Written Word?

Salvation can mean but only one thing - The Word teaches what Salvation is, why we need it, who can receive it, how to receive it, and by whom it was obtained.

 

[francisdesales]

francis -

• Can God operate outside of the Written Word?
  
  Can God operate in a way different from the Written Word?
  
  Does the Writen Word contain all that we need to know of God?
  
  Can Jesus Christ contradict the Written Word?

Salvation can mean but only one thing - The Word teaches what Salvation is, why we need it, who can receive it, how to receive it, and by whom it was obtained.

Can God operate outside of the written word? Yes. He created the world before the "Written" word was ever put to paper...

Does the written word contain all that we need to know of God? I don't know. If it did, why did God take the form of man?

Can God operate in a different way? Who is God, the Bible or Him?

Can Jesus Christ contradict the written word? I would say "can the written word contradict Jesus?"

Your emphasis on the Bible over and above God is akin to idolatry. Quite frankly, we worship God (or we ought to, anyway), not the Bible. Your emphasis should be reversed. The Bible RECORDS God's revelation. It does not determine anything that God can or cannot do. God is not subject to the Scriptures. They RELATE WHO God is, they don't set the "ground rules" for what God "can" do!

As to "salvation can only mean one thing", that is silly, because people who read the Scriptures DISAGREE with what salvation means... Unless you think you are infallible and everyone else who disagrees with you, Catholics or Protestants, are ALL wrong...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

And those who adhere to the lies of Roman Catholicism follow the blind into the ditch. What a shame!

One good point is that they will all think that they are in purgatory awaiting someone to pray them out of their torment into God's Kingdom. :wink:

That is the only good point for they will never leave what they have been taught is purgatory!

You should adhere to your signature line...

 

[Guest]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made, without him nothing was made that has been made." - John 1:1-3

The Scriptures reveal WHO God is, WHAT God has done, is doing and will do. God has provided for us the Written Word and the Living Word - both are tied together. They cannot be seperated.

• Fact of Sin: Romans 3:23
  
  Result of Sin: Romans 6:23
  
  God's Love: Romans 5:8
  
  Salvation for whom: Romans 10:13
  
  Salvation how: Romans 10:9
  
  Salvation why? Romans 14:9

I really do not see anything silly about it, do you?

 

[Solo]

And those who adhere to the lies of Roman Catholicism follow the blind into the ditch. What a shame!

One good point is that they will all think that they are in purgatory awaiting someone to pray them out of their torment into God's Kingdom. :wink:

That is the only good point for they will never leave what they have been taught is purgatory!

You should adhere to your signature line...

I do. If it was not for God's gift of discernment, I would not know that the Roman Catholic institution is teaching doctrines of devils.

You should listen to Godly council...It would save you from a very unpleasant future.

The plagues of the Harlot of Babylon will be poured out on those who rejected God's plea for them to come out of her.

All those who are in the middle of the teachings of Roman Catholicism better humble themselves and listen to God Almighty instead of the liar that men call the pope.

 

[stranger]

Hi all,

We know that the gospels do not contain everything that Jesus said and did:
John 21:25 (New American Standard Bible)

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

From this text alone we can safely suppose that Jesus said and did things of which we have no written record in scripture. So can God operate outside scripture? Yes, of course.

 

[stranger]

The baptism for the dead. . .

This has always intrigued me insofar as it is about the most mysterious thing Paul ever wrote. But perhaps Romans 6 :1-4 'baptism' into Christ's death' removes some of this mytique. So for starters let's assume that the dead being spoken of in the reference 'baptism for the dead - refers to the dead in Christ. It is a privilege to be dead in Christ lest anyone think otherwise. The other option is to be dead in Adam and that is a lost estate.

Now I put it to you - Can the dead in Christ be taken two ways: to refer to the physically living as well as to the physically dead? Drew and I have had extensive discussions about the principle 'first comes the physical and then the spiritual '. . . So if you are out there Drew - feel free to respond to this one.

If we consider those living - are we looking at a group that are yet to be raised in Christ? Hence they are baptised into the death in Christ but not yet into the resurrection of Christ? Does this in any way relate to the carnal and the spiritual man?

 

[Guest]

Hi all,

We know that the gospels do not contain everything that Jesus said and did:
John 21:25 (New American Standard Bible)

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

From this text alone we can safely suppose that Jesus said and did things of which we have no written record in scripture. So can God operate outside scripture? Yes, of course.

However, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the author of Scripture, that which Jesus did and wasn't recorded cannot violate that which was written. Also, it is safe to be sure that we are not in need of knowing that which was recorded.

 

[francisdesales]

The Scriptures reveal WHO God is, WHAT God has done, is doing and will do. God has provided for us the Written Word and the Living Word - both are tied together. They cannot be seperated.

The Scriptures are PART of God's Word to us. They do not tell us completely who God is or what God is doing and will do. It gives the big picture of salvation. IF the Scriptures were so clear on God and salvation and so forth, why is there an "Apologetic" section on this forum? By your thinking, people should be able to obtain everything they need to know about God and His plan by merely reading the Bible... Clearly, you are not considering that there are numerous Christians out there who have different OPINIONS of what consists of salvation or how God works or who He is...

All from "bible believing" Christians, no less.


Sorry, your verses that you give me are not all that the Bible says about those various subjects. IF the Bible is the Word of God, we should take ALL of it into account. Thus, tossing a few bible verses around is not much good when trying to figure out what God means by "sin" or "salvation". Again, I point you to the disunion in the Protestant communities over these very questions. You say one thing, but reality is something totally different - there is little unity of doctrine among Protestants because they consider themselves the interpreter of Scriptures. Thus, it seems obvious to me that God did NOT intend for man to read the Scriptures unaided by a Church and figure out God and His plan - even the Bible says this much (eg. Acts 8:30-31 - "Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?")

Fortunately, we can know God's plan more fully through an infallibly-led guide, the Church. The Church is my guide on reading the Scriptures.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Hi all,

We know that the gospels do not contain everything that Jesus said and did:
John 21:25 (New American Standard Bible)

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

From this text alone we can safely suppose that Jesus said and did things of which we have no written record in scripture. So can God operate outside scripture? Yes, of course.

However, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the author of Scripture, that which Jesus did and wasn't recorded cannot violate that which was written. Also, it is safe to be sure that we are not in need of knowing that which was recorded.

Reallly?

When if someone said "Jesus was married"?

Wouldn't that be an important piece of information - but does not violate the Scriptures??? How do you defend the position that Jesus was not married? Or didn't have kids?

The Bible ITSELF does not say it includes ALL that Christians need to know. That is your denomination saying that. Show me a verse of Scripture that says the Bible includes EVERYTHING we need to know to be saved...

Jesus established a Church to ensure that we know everything we need to know, not a book.

Regards

 

[Guest]

Reallly?

When if someone said "Jesus was married"?

Wouldn't that be an important piece of information - but does not violate the Scriptures??? How do you defend the position that Jesus was not married? Or didn't have kids?

The Bible ITSELF does not say it includes ALL that Christians need to know. That is your denomination saying that. Show me a verse of Scripture that says the Bible includes EVERYTHING we need to know to be saved...

Jesus established a Church to ensure that we know everything we need to know, not a book.

Regards

Francis - there is no need to shout. First it is rude. Second, it doesn't make your arguement any stronger - you are just merely making it "louder".

I would support my conclusion by Scripture, but it really would not matter to you would it? You have made it abundantly clear that you do not take the word of Scripture, but rather trust the word's of men over that of the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God.

I have already provided you a list of Scriptures so that one knows that they need salvation, how to obtain salvation, why salvation is provided, and who secured it. This it appears you have rejected for the teachings of your denomination - that places an infalliable man higher than the Word of God - both the Written Word and the Living Word.

 

[stranger]

Hi aLV,

A little more on what Jesus said and did which is not recorded in scripture. That this was also revelation I do not deny - nor do I think that you have a contrary view about this. Agreed? That 'which Jesus said and did that is not recorded in scripture' would not contradict what Jesus said and did that was recorded in scripture. Agreed?

So far so good. Now the apostles who were with Jesus for about three years would have known and heard many things that Jesus said and did that were not recorded by them in their writings. Yes, they were guided by the Holy Spirit as they later wrotes their letters to the churches, I am NOT suggesting otherwise, AND they were guided by the Holy Spirit when they taught or preached the Gospel. etc. What then was the distinguishing factor? It was their apostolic faith and authority both when they wrote the letters that are now in the NT and when they taught face to face. Agreed?

To summarise. . .

The same apostles who wrote the letters now found in the NT taught in the churches and homes in the 1st century, face to face, under the guidance of the same Holy Sipirt.

 

[francisdesales]

Francis - there is no need to shout. First it is rude. Second, it doesn't make your arguement any stronger - you are just merely making it "louder".

I am not shouting, ALone. I did not capitalize every letter. The larger-than normal font is for emphasis. If I was shouting, I would "cap lock" my letters - you should know that by now - that is what people do when they want to shout. I suppose you are getting frustrated with me. Well, let's slow down a bit here.

I would support my conclusion by Scripture, but it really would not matter to you would it? You have made it abundantly clear that you do not take the word of Scripture, but rather trust the word's of men over that of the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God.

Supporting your conclusion from Scripture - and I disagreeing with your conclusion - does not mean that I am making it abundantly clear that I do not take the Word of Scriptures! As I have noted very recently, many Protestants equate "my opinion" with "God's meaning of His Word". Thus, when they read John 6, they think they have interpretated correctly God's Word based on opinion, not on any supporting evidence that discounts the Real Presence. The fact of the matter is that your opinion is just that - opinion - to me. I do not consider you an authoritative figure when discussing Scriptures. Nothing personal, but your opinion is as good as anyone else who reads the Bible and reads commentaries, thinking that they have all the answers by themselves - while calling their opinions "God's Word".

We BOTH trust the words of men, because the Bible was written by men and vouched for by men. That cliche is getting pretty old, while failing to realize the nonsense behind what it says... We base our faith upon the stories told by men to other men - that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. This is based on what men have told other men up to this day. Can you deny this?

I have already provided you a list of Scriptures so that one knows that they need salvation, how to obtain salvation, why salvation is provided, and who secured it.

You have given me one verse for each category. You are a pastor, no? Do you use one verse to explain these incredibly deep subjects? I presume you have read the Scriptures. You know well that I can also post one verse lines that tell a different view of how one is saved, how to obtain it, why it is provided, etc...

And I again ask you, where does the Bible tell us that IT includes EVERYTHING we need to be saved, or to know EVERYTHING God wants us to know about Him? If that was the case, than why didn't Jesus use the Muslim method - drop a "koran" out of the sky from God himself? The fact remains - for emphasis -

that Jesus established a Church, not a book, to spread the Good News.

This it appears you have rejected for the teachings of your denomination - that places an infalliable man higher than the Word of God - both the Written Word and the Living Word.

Wrong. The Pope is not "higher" than the word of God!!! The reason why you are confused and put forth a false dichotomy is that you think you know God's intent of every passage of Scriptures. Thus, when the Pope says something that offends your own "infallible" understanding, such as discussing purgatory, you condemn the Pope with your false accusations. Somehow, you believe without realizing that YOU are an infallible authority! I am not buying it.

It all comes down to authority. Who are you going to believe? Yourself, or someone who claims to have been given authority by God Himself through the Scriptures? That is our difference. You support the former, I follow the later. Since you support the former, you cannot contenance how I can possibly disagree with you because you think you are infallible - whether you admit it or not. Thus, any disagreement with you brings your sad accusation that I "don't follow the Word of God"! More correctly, you should be saying that I "don't follow my UNDERSTANDING of the Word of God".

Think about this. Why do you think YOU have a monopoly on the understanding of Sacred Scriptures?

Regards

 

[Solo]

for emphasis

God's Word establishes those who are called out and separated from the world in the assemblies of believers through the Justification which is in Jesus Christ through the teaching and Sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The Church is not the Roman Catholic cult that teaches false teachings so that unbelievers remain unbelievers!

 

[Guest]

Francis - there is no need to shout. First it is rude. Second, it doesn't make your arguement any stronger - you are just merely making it "louder".

I am not shouting, ALone. I did not capitalize every letter. The larger-than normal font is for emphasis. If I was shouting, I would "cap lock" my letters - you should know that by now - that is what people do when they want to shout. I suppose you are getting frustrated with me. Well, let's slow down a bit here.

9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info. We want to respect copyrighted material. Plus, you stand a better chance of getting your post read if it contains a link with an excerpt from source that's relative to your point.
Refrain from all caps and bold, large fonts.

francis - I am not getting frustrated at you. Though, I am getting frustrated at your position.

I would support my conclusion by Scripture, but it really would not matter to you would it? You have made it abundantly clear that you do not take the word of Scripture, but rather trust the word's of men over that of the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God.

Supporting your conclusion from Scripture - and I disagreeing with your conclusion - does not mean that I am making it abundantly clear that I do not take the Word of Scriptures!

francis - You support your positions not with the Word of God, but with what your denomination tells you. You do not search the Scriptures for yourself, you do not rely on the Holy Spirit to guide you in understanding - you rely on your denomination. You have stated this clearly: "The Church is my guide on reading the Scriptures."

We BOTH trust the words of men, because the Bible was written by men and vouched for by men. That cliche is getting pretty old, while failing to realize the nonsense behind what it says... We base our faith upon the stories told by men to other men - that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. This is based on what men have told other men up to this day. Can you deny this?

The Scriptures were written by the Holy Spirit - they are the very Words of God - not men. God used men to pen - but God provided the words. I base my faith on the infalliable Word of God - not the words of men.

 

[francisdesales]

The Church is not the Roman Catholic cult that teaches false teachings so that unbelievers remain unbelievers.

Stick to your signature. Your fallicious opinions have been duly noted.

 

[francisdesales]

- Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info. We want to respect copyrighted material. Plus, you stand a better chance of getting your post read if it contains a link with an excerpt from source that's relative to your point.

Refrain from all caps and bold, large fonts.

Are you upset at MY one sentence of large font, or do you also take Protestants to task who do this MUCH MORE than I do? Really, now. I expect a similar note sent to Solo, who quite regularly uses large font. (gasp!). While I think about it, you should include a few other MODERATORS besides Solo, as well. Maybe they forgot that rule #9.

francis - I am not getting frustrated at you. Though, I am getting frustrated at your position.

Ditto! I will just say that the Catholic position is certainly reconcilable with Scriptures. Also, when one reads the first Christians, we can conclude how they actually read the Scriptures, and it doesn't seem to match your point of view. Frankly, this is key to my personal reason why I remain Catholic. The men closest to the Apostles would certainly know what was taught regarding the Eucharist or salvation. Thus, when I see our views match, I cannot comprehend why you are frustrated at "our" position, unless you are not aware of the Church Fathers who were writting in the second century about these subjects.

francis - You support your positions not with the Word of God, but with what your denomination tells you. You do not search the Scriptures for yourself, you do not rely on the Holy Spirit to guide you in understanding - you rely on your denomination. You have stated this clearly: "The Church is my guide on reading the Scriptures."

The Church guides my overall understanding, just as Philip gave the understanding of the Church to the Egyptian in Acts 8. Just because we are told how to interpret the Scriptures doesn't mean we don't read them and benefit from what they say. Nor does it mean we are idiots who must have everything told to us. The Church is a guide, an infallible one. My position is supported by Scriptures. The problem is that we disagree on what different words mean or how verses fit into the big picture. I understand that Scriptures can be read different ways. You seem to believe they can only be read one way. Clearly, you are not aware that the very first Christians also had to deal with men who "used the Scriptures" to support their own false ideas of God. I would suggest you consider glancing at St. Ireneaus - who makes the same argument: The Gnostics use the same Scriptures, but don't read them correctly. Thus, he refutes their positions on who God is, just as I refute your position on other subjects. It doesn't mean that I don't follow Scriptures. It means that our views differ.

Thus, I tire of this cliche that Catholics don't follow the Word of God. We just read it differently than you do. Can't we be honest here?

The Scriptures were written by the Holy Spirit - they are the very Words of God - not men. God used men to pen - but God provided the words. I base my faith on the infalliable Word of God - not the words of men.

That relies on the faith of men and the understanding of the Church. It is not self-evident. You base your faith on the FACT that men have told you that the Bible is the Word of God, not that the Bible proves ITSELF as God's Word. And when I say "Bible", know that I mean ALL the books found in them. Many of the separate books of this compendium do not make it obvious that they are from God. Philemon? Esther? And a number of others had been debated throughout the earliest history of forming the canon. If it was so obvious, there would be no deuterocanonicals in the OT or the NT. Thus, we rely on the decisions made by other men, relying on their word that they were guided by God to compile the Scriptures, understanding that God was behind it BY FAITH.

Regards