Bible Study Suffering, divine sovereignty and free will

[keptandprotected]

Our church is doing a study relating the old testament to the new testament, and to see grace at work in both covenants and see how the gospel was formed and grew out of the old testament promises of a Messiah, Christ.

We talked about the 10 commandments and the Law in general. In the last study we talked about the blessing and the curse of the Law (Deuteronomy 30:19). So God laid out expectations for the Israelites to always follow Him faithfully (Deuteronomy 30:16-18) or they would perish.

In Galatians 3:19-29 Paul implies that the ones under the Law in the old testament were supposed to look forward to the Messiah, a perfect and holy One who could fulfill the Law, since they would find out no one could keep the Law (Romans 3:1-20).

So didn't God know the people weren't going to be able to keep the Law way back in Deuteronomy? Even Joshua knew they couldn't (Joshua 24:19). And keeping in mind, the nation of Jews not able to keep the Law brought wrath and judgment.

What I am seeing is that God purposely put the nation of Israel into a spot where if they were to fall away, which they did and God knew they would, He would choose to show them wrath and judgment, sending them into captivity, and then choose to heal the remnant through the Redeemer Jesus Christ. (Of course this all is under the divine sovereignty of God and the existence of free will).

I really see a universal theme of lamentation and suffering (from wrath that was bound to occur) as a tool used by God to humble people in order they would come to Christ. I really believe that God knew from Genesis that He would have to show His people wrath in order to heal them through Jesus. Not eternal wrath, but wrath as discipline. Eternal wrath is different, it's based on rejecting the faith of the Messiah. But disciplinary wrath (Isaiah 60:10) lasts only temporarily, and refines us in the fire. For God's chosen can be anywhere (Psalm 139:7-8) and God is still with them.

 

[Brother Mike]

Our church is doing a study relating the old testament to the new testament, and to see grace at work in both covenants and see how the gospel was formed and grew out of the old testament promises of a Messiah, Christ.

We talked about the 10 commandments and the Law in general. In the last study we talked about the blessing and the curse of the Law (Deuteronomy 30:19). So God laid out expectations for the Israelites to always follow Him faithfully (Deuteronomy 30:16-18) or they would perish.

In Galatians 3:19-29 Paul implies that the ones under the Law in the old testament were supposed to look forward to the Messiah, a perfect and holy One who could fulfill the Law, since they would find out no one could keep the Law (Romans 3:1-20).

So didn't God know the people weren't going to be able to keep the Law way back in Deuteronomy? Even Joshua knew they couldn't (Joshua 24:19). And keeping in mind, the nation of Jews not able to keep the Law brought wrath and judgment.

What I am seeing is that God purposely put the nation of Israel into a spot where if they were to fall away, which they did and God knew they would, He would choose to show them wrath and judgment, sending them into captivity, and then choose to heal the remnant through the Redeemer Jesus Christ. (Of course this all is under the divine sovereignty of God and the existence of free will).

I really see a universal theme of lamentation and suffering (from wrath that was bound to occur) as a tool used by God to humble people in order they would come to Christ. I really believe that God knew from Genesis that He would have to show His people wrath in order to heal them through Jesus. Not eternal wrath, but wrath as discipline. Eternal wrath is different, it's based on rejecting the faith of the Messiah. But disciplinary wrath (Isaiah 60:10) lasts only temporarily, and refines us in the fire. For God's chosen can be anywhere (Psalm 139:7-8) and God is still with them.

First, God never choose anyone to suffer.
2nd, David, Moses, Joshua, Arron, Abraham, Jacob, Issac, Ruth, the list goes on of people that God extremely blessed though none of them were perfect. These folks had something the others the suffered did not. They had Faith in God and His goodness.

God does not use the Curse too Humble anyone. IN fact the scripture tells US to humble ourselves, not God doing the humbling.

Jas_4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

The law was set in place for a standard. Not to just God's people, but to the World. It's still wrong to steal, commit adultery and so on. In fact the Law is perfect and has not been changed. What was removed was the ordinances of the law. Not the law itself.

And if you look up those refined by God's So called fire, they were not refined but destroyed.

Breaking the law brought the curse and it was not meant to correct, refine or make humble. The curse is designed for one purpose only. That is to destroy you.

Deu 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

Go back, study again but this time with the eyes of faith.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Our church is doing a study relating the old testament to the new testament, and to see grace at work in both covenants and see how the gospel was formed and grew out of the old testament promises of a Messiah, Christ.

We talked about the 10 commandments and the Law in general. In the last study we talked about the blessing and the curse of the Law (Deuteronomy 30:19). So God laid out expectations for the Israelites to always follow Him faithfully (Deuteronomy 30:16-18) or they would perish.

In Galatians 3:19-29 Paul implies that the ones under the Law in the old testament were supposed to look forward to the Messiah, a perfect and holy One who could fulfill the Law, since they would find out no one could keep the Law (Romans 3:1-20).

So didn't God know the people weren't going to be able to keep the Law way back in Deuteronomy? Even Joshua knew they couldn't (Joshua 24:19). And keeping in mind, the nation of Jews not able to keep the Law brought wrath and judgment.

What I am seeing is that God purposely put the nation of Israel into a spot where if they were to fall away, which they did and God knew they would, He would choose to show them wrath and judgment, sending them into captivity, and then choose to heal the remnant through the Redeemer Jesus Christ. (Of course this all is under the divine sovereignty of God and the existence of free will).

I really see a universal theme of lamentation and suffering (from wrath that was bound to occur) as a tool used by God to humble people in order they would come to Christ. I really believe that God knew from Genesis that He would have to show His people wrath in order to heal them through Jesus. Not eternal wrath, but wrath as discipline. Eternal wrath is different, it's based on rejecting the faith of the Messiah. But disciplinary wrath (Isaiah 60:10) lasts only temporarily, and refines us in the fire. For God's chosen can be anywhere (Psalm 139:7-8) and God is still with them.

Hi there struggling. I'm delighted that your Pastor has chosen to teach on that theme. I'm a student of the Old Covenant because there is so much useful theology there. As Mike has said so accurately....

The law was set in place for a standard. Not to just God's people, but to the World. It's still wrong to steal, commit adultery and so on. In fact the Law is perfect and has not been changed. What was removed was the ordinances of the law. Not the law itself.

.

I see these Scriptures in Romans 11 as vital information showing a shift from Israel being the vessel of God to spread the Gospel to the world, to the Gentiles being that vessel....
Romans 11:1 "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life."
11:4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."
11:9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever."
11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
11:12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!"

 

[keptandprotected]

First, God never choose anyone to suffer.
2nd, David, Moses, Joshua, Arron, Abraham, Jacob, Issac, Ruth, the list goes on of people that God extremely blessed though none of them were perfect. These folks had something the others the suffered did not. They had Faith in God and His goodness.

God does not use the Curse too Humble anyone. IN fact the scripture tells US to humble ourselves, not God doing the humbling.

Jas_4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

The law was set in place for a standard. Not to just God's people, but to the World. It's still wrong to steal, commit adultery and so on. In fact the Law is perfect and has not been changed. What was removed was the ordinances of the law. Not the law itself.

And if you look up those refined by God's So called fire, they were not refined but destroyed.

Breaking the law brought the curse and it was not meant to correct, refine or make humble. The curse is designed for one purpose only. That is to destroy you.

Deu 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

Go back, study again but this time with the eyes of faith.

Mike.

Mike, I'm a newbie just trying to understand and put some pieces of the puzzle in my mind together. I can tell you didn't agree with me. That's alright because I don't know if I do either now. I see what you're saying. God knew they couldn't keep the law, but expected faith even when they messed up.

By the way, in the original post, that was my initial take on things and not that of my pastor or of our church.

Thanks for straightening me out on that one.

 

[Brother Mike]

Mike, I'm a newbie just trying to understand and put some pieces of the puzzle in my mind together. I can tell you didn't agree with me. That's alright because I don't know if I do either now. I see what you're saying. God knew they couldn't keep the law, but expected faith even when they messed up.

By the way, in the original post, that was my initial take on things and not that of my pastor or of our church.

Thanks for straightening me out on that one.

You have a awesome heart, so with that you can go far and be used mightily of God. Understanding God's Character and Nature is key to being effective on Earth If you and I don't know God and He is mysterious then how we going to be a help to anyone else?

The law was put in place to show what sin was as the strength of sin is the law. (1 Cor 15:56)

The law was also put in place to protect God's people from the god of this World. You disobeyed God, Satan would wipe you out. Any disobedience could be death as Satan had the right. Jesus removed the devils rights to mankind and gave us victory over that rat.

God then revealed the problem to the church.

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Jesus main purpose was not to just save us from our sins. That was not our issue, the issue was with the author of death and sin.

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus came because there was a wicked spiritual authority on earth greater than the power of flesh human beings.

If you understand God integrity then you get a clear picture of how things work. God's integrity surpasses our knowledge, but we can grasp it.

Adam obeyed Satan. God gave the earth to Adam. Since Adam obeyed the devil then by default the devil now has the right to rule over what God gave to Adam. This is when death reigned by one mans sin.

Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

God could have just squashed the devil and Let Adam continue on. However, back to God's integrity. He would have to take away from Satan something Adam gave to Him. The earth God gave to man, the Heavens belong to God.

Psa_115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

God's integrity will not even cross the devil. Satan will never say at any time God was unfair. This is why it took a Man (Jesus) to come to earth and live the law perfectly. So, because the devil got so much access through Adam's sin and death reigned, the reverse happened to all those that accept Jesus as Lord. God still left mankind with the choice to serve the devil, but provided a way to not be under the devils authority any more.

Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

God was fair the whole time. Those that tried to keep the law to please God failed, those that trusted God by faith, despite their many shortcomings always had victory. David is a great example of this who God gave victory after victory in many battles to David. David and His men would Mow through whole armies. Not God's best as David had to much blood on him to build God's Temple, but God still honored and loved David.

You can see the differences. Job for example, lived in fear and obeyed God out of fear of what could go wrong. When the Sabeans and Chaladean came to destroy and take Job's stuff, Job just sat there like a school girl crying. David would have said, "Lord, shall I pursue them and get my stuff back, you are with me."

As you read scripture, think about relationships and trust. Don't think about religion and doctrines of Election v.s Foreknowledge, but what things are common to you and your own natural relationships on Earth. God is no different.

God bless you. Long enough.
Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi there struggling. I'm delighted that your Pastor has chosen to teach on that theme. I'm a student of the Old Covenant because there is so much useful theology there. As Mike has said so accurately.... .

I see these Scriptures in Romans 11 as vital information showing a shift from Israel being the vessel of God to spread the Gospel to the world, to the Gentiles being that vessel....
Romans 11:1 "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life."
11:4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."
11:9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever."
11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
11:12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!"

Good thought on this Chopper. I tend to think of people as people and not as Israel, china and so on. The Ordinances of the law were removed and hence Paul Mentioned "Their Table" You can't make God happy keeping all the feast and yet not trust in Him. I suppose since Israel wanted to keep God by their works, then it makes sense to find a people who were not custom to doing that and believing God by faith through the Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless Brother Chopper.
Mike.