Summing up “the soul of man”

[Chopper]

Very true. Studied it for decades now and I still do not have all that much of a solid sight on what will transpire other than I do know this, that the time of the devil and his messengers will have an ending. OF this much I am quite entirely certain. That ending for them will be eternal and it will be torture. Rev. 20:10. But even in this sight, I have had to take into considerations that I do not have a very solid handle on what exactly an anti-Christ spirit really is, NOR do I really want to know NOR do I think it's required to know. For all I know the LoF to an antiChrist spirit may be an inverse form of paradise, to them. These are not easy subjects. If we let our own minds trap us, it's not a good thing. I remain OPEN to what the Spirit shows me and I have changed a lot from where my studies began i.e. having had to extract my mind from certain propositions that certain camps made and that I bought into early in my faith, such as the various pre/mid/post trib postures, all of which I'd consider quite entirely LACKING today.

I actually have a far greater hope from Revelation and end time studies today than from where I started. See Rev. 5:12-13 combined with Isa. 11:9, Hab. 2:14 and Heb. 11:8 for pictures of my personal HOPE, which has grown quite strong in that direction. The days of Noah that Jesus speaks of in Matt. 24 for example is actually shown also by Isa. 54:8-10, and is a reflection of this same HOPE. But, just as those Waters of Gods Word are meant for OUR COMFORT, they are DESTRUCTION to Gods enemies, whom the devil and his messengers ARE. The Words of Gods Mercy are actually messages of DESTRUCTION to their ears. Do you catch the 'inverse drift' here? He's quite fascinating, this Living Word of ours. Far more than meets the surface analysis.


Again, agreed. I think all of us would concur that we ourselves have some losses to be incurred in judgment as well. And, I suspect we will be quite entirely happy about those losses. For example, I'm quite sure that Paul looked forward to ditching the evil present with him and this sin indwelling his own flesh. Romans 7:17-21. I am quite certain Paul looked forward to ditching the contrariness of his own flesh to the Spirit, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15 etc. Get the picture of JUDGMENT here? I certainly do.

How this might play into the end time narratives, I can not say, other THAN I believe that to be 'caught up' in the flesh, IF we are still here, may not be all that pleasant of an experience with us, considering the above, but, on the other side of that polishing/firing it is likely we'll all see much better, tears along the way, notwithstanding. Do we really have any idea of being translated from mortality into immortality, 1 Cor. 15:42 to end of chapter? I simply can not imagine what that really entails. It's quite beyond my mind/experience presently, other than the occasional tastes I've received along the way of this present life to keep me going.

We also know that we won't be harmed by the second death, Rev. 2:11, Rev. 20:6, BUT to me that doesn't preclude some amount of "exposure" to same. Rev. 14:10-11 shows this "torture" to transpire in the "presence of the Lamb," so, yeah, do the math. IF we are in/with the Lamb, it may be very much as the E.O. describes. I do not discount their sights. I do discount "exclusive" arrogance of avoidance postured by any sect at the expenses of other believers.

My Son Skip and I have had to explain, as best as we could, folk who want to know about the final place of abode for the unsaved. There have been those who already had their minds made up as to what they believe but to start off, they acted as if they knew nothing. Some of these people follow TV Preachers like Joel Olstein (sp) sorry, and a bunch of others. So, over the years we've heard a mess of idea's.

The point I'd like to make about the thinking that the LOF will not be so bad is, I try and ask people to see hell or the LOF from God's perspective not man's. Since the Godhead is omniscient, I can't even begin to imagine the conversation that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit had to discuss in order to undue the disobedience of Adam that passed on to mankind a sin nature and death.

The Godhead knew what would happen to the One who would rescue mankind and to give each man, woman and child an opportunity to become a child of God instead of a disobedient reject-er of the plan of Salvation. I can't even imagine the thoughts that ran thru Jesus' mind when He knew that He would have to leave the matchless union of the Godhead, and incarnate into a human.

I remember when my older Sister went off to college. She really didn't like leaving the closeness of our home but knew she needed to advance her education. My Parents were very tearful, having to leave their Daughter away from home. This doesn't come even close to what the Godhead had to experience but it does give us a little glimpse into some of the feelings.

God the Father, had to let His only Son, Who had been with Him for all eternity backward, go from His presence and live for a time on what had become a stained and sinful earth. Jesus had His own feelings about leaving the union of the Godhead....Philippians 2:6 "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." (ESV) Or to be held onto and not leave.

Now, the fact that the Holy Spirit would not leave Jesus alone must have had a sense of relief that He wouldn't be all alone. For 33+
years God the Father gave instructions to His Son. Jesus was absolutely loyal to His Father to obey Him and honor Him as Jesus and His Spirit went about preaching His Gospel, healing the sick and casting out demons.

So, whenever we think of what the Godhead put in place for the good of mankind, to refuse the Gospel and become an enemy of God, the justice of God takes over and grace ends with that refusal. The justice of God demands punishment. No one but God knows what sin really is and what an offense it is to our loving holy God.

 

[smaller]

The point I'd like to make about the thinking that the LOF will not be so bad is, I try and ask people to see hell or the LOF from God's perspective not man's.

Pertaining to the LoF we do have to observe and theoretically rely on certain hard line facts about it, "as it is written", scant as the information is.

We do know for example that death itself will be somehow placed into the LoF, and therefore the LoF is termed the second death. It is in the instance of death, which is A POWER, the "death of death" or the second death. How that is exactly, we can't really perceive.

Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

The above may speak differently to many, but it appears to me that only God has control over the spirit of any person and no one can avoid the day/time of their own appointment with death.

We know also that death is a power from here:

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Again, a rather deep subject, above. Just gleaning out the fact that death is "a power."

And this power of death finds it's own ending, here, and from these states of death/hell, "the dead" come forth unto the JUDGMENT of works.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Additionally and contrary to the opening posters claim, here we see certain continuing conditions:

Rev. 22:
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The opening poster CLAIMS his paper addresses these scriptures and explains that they don't mean what they actually SAY, but that claim is a lie. There is only one footnote to Rev. 22:15, and the paper explains nothing other than that some people, like me for example, read it as it SAYS. There is no counter postured other than the unsupportable supposition being put forth in the paper argument. Suppositions are worthless in the face of facts.

As late in the scriptures as Rev. 22:11 & 15 we see both "continuation" and "existence" of certain, supposedly, "THE DEAD." Just because we read the term "dead" it does not mean they are actually DEAD=NO LONGER EXIST as shown earlier in this thread, where the dead were shown to be entirely active, and even ALIVE in the flesh on earth. Matt. 8:22, Luke 9:60, Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13.

Since the Godhead is omniscient, I can't even begin to imagine the conversation that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit had to discuss in order to undue the disobedience of Adam that passed on to mankind a sin nature and death.

Salvation was planned long before Adam showed up in the dust compilation. It was not a plan B on Gods part after Adam supposedly "blew it." I don't buy the common "blame Adam and Eve" narratives. God had every intention of a FIRST NATURAL MAN, and afterwards, after the flesh DIES, then A SPIRITUAL MAN. And this the scriptures show us, in extensive details from 1 Cor. 15:42 through the end of that chapter for example.

The first natural man, the flesh of Adam, was made precisely by God to disobey in sin, and to then to DIE. The "natural man" has a Divine Appointment with the DEATH of his flesh.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Do we see the failure of Adam therein? OR do we see the intentions of God were/are for the natural man to FAIL? The natural man was always meant to FAIL. That was and still is Gods Own Plan.

Paul shows us, precisely, that Gods Ways are, first, the natural, and then afterwards, the spiritual. The natural man HAS to fail in that equation:

1 Corinthians 15:46
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

The above is actually a consistent "pattern" that God Operates by throughout the scriptures. There is a showing first in the natural, but there is a spiritual meaning and intention that comes "afterwards."

Even His Own Son came first in the natural, and afterwards, a Glorified Body, the first Son in the natural being conformed to this same pattern of the death of the natural man, and the raising of the Spiritual Man, His Own Self:

Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

The Godhead knew what would happen to the One who would rescue mankind and to give each man, woman and child an opportunity to become a child of God instead of a disobedient reject-er of the plan of Salvation.

I don't buy into the "opportunity" Gospel. It's not a business pitch. Buy now before it's too late! That's not how it works.

We are PRECISELY CALLED OUT by God in Christ Himself, to be saved. It's not all on the 'person.' God in Christ Himself IS Completely Involved and has to be in order for anyone to be "hear" and "be saved." Otherwise they remain in the intentionally planned state of "not hearing or seeing." Romans 11:8 (and a veritable mountain of likewise stated scriptures) that show God Himself puts upon people the "spirit of slumber/stupor" so they CAN'T HEAR or SEE.

So, whenever we think of what the Godhead put in place for the good of mankind, to refuse the Gospel and become an enemy of God, the justice of God takes over and grace ends with that refusal. The justice of God demands punishment. No one but God knows what sin really is and what an offense it is to our loving holy God.

Being a professional salesman, my own fleshly nature would LIKE very much to think that God in Christ is a sales pitch, an "opportunity" for some to be saved, and THEN link the salvation of others to ones ability to "make a sales pitch" and "close" people for Jesus. That's exactly how the "closer Baptists" think and act out.

I actually detest that entire mindset.

 

[Bick]

1. I'm just getting into this, lf that is allright. First of all, it is important that the Scriptures, as literal as possible, be used, such as Young's Literal Translation or Rotherham's Emphasized Translation, be the final word.
2. Let's start with "Gehenna." It was referred to by Jesus when speaking to Israelite multitudes ad his disciples. From history we know it was a place outside the Jerusalem walls, where the offal, the garbage of the city was throne, as well as the dead bodies of animals and criminals. There fires were always burning, and maggots were feeding on what was not burned up.
3. He warned them about sinning so bad that they could be judged by the Jewish Sanhedren and be condemned to the "fires of Gehenna (hell in the KJV)." Notice---these were human beings, not disembodied spirits.
4. Gehenna was a place on earth during Jesus earthly ministry and does not exist now. I do believe it will be outside the walls of the restored Jerusalem during the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM.
5. It cannot be the lake of fire.
6. Ref: Mat. 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mar.9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5.
7. 
   
8. condemned to

 

[Free]

I'm just getting into this, lf that is allright. First of all, it is important that the Scriptures, as literal as possible, be used, such as Young's Literal Translation or Rotherham's Emphasized Translation, be the final word.

If you want to make the argument that a certain translation should be the final word, then it must be the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, not an English translation. If you are making the argument that the Bible should be the final word, then I'm sure all would agree.

He warned them about sinning so bad that they could be judged by the Jewish Sanhedren and be condemned to the "fires of Gehenna (hell in the KJV)." Notice---these were human beings, not disembodied spirits.

There were three different levels of judgment being discussed, the last of which was divine judgement which resulted in being thrown into hell.

It cannot be the lake of fire.

Here I believe that Butch5 and atpollard are correct--Gehenna was a metaphor that Jesus used for the lake of fire. Jesus speaks of Gehenna as the final destination for the unbeliever and John uses the lake of fire for the final destination of the unbeliever. Both final destinations of the unbeliever, both burning with fire. The logical conclusion is that they are one and the same place.

Ref: Mat. 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mar.9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5.

Just how do each of these verses support anything you have said? Posting references, even the verses themselves, tells us nothing about how you think they support your position. I am willing to discuss any of them, especially since I think most of them prove your position to be in error--in particular Matt.10:28; 18:9; 23:15; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5.

 

[Bick]

May I enter in? Believe it or not, there is no word in the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures that literally means "eternal", "forever", or "everlasting.
The words are used by those scholars with preconceived beliefs in the immortality of man and "conscious eternal torment" for the lost.
For instance: the Hebrew word "Olam" is rendered one of those above, yet, it is doubled, it is used in the plural as well as in the singular.
"Olam" literally , means "age," which is generally an unknown length of time, but not unending.
Something that is "eternal" could not be doubled; so it is rendered "for ever and ever" in a number of verses (1 Chr.16:36, 29:10, Neh. 9:5, Jer. 7:7, Jer. 25:5, Dan. 2:20, and 7:18b).
As for when "olam" is plural, it would make no sense to render it "eternals" as if there could be more than one eternity. Yet, it is rendered "for ever" 4 times, "everlasting 4 times, and some other phrases.
My point is, the translators used the word "ever" insread of "age" in too many places to list right here. And this rendered pretty much the same in the NT, for the noun "aion" and its adjective, "aionios".

 

[Chopper]

I appreciate your thinking on these words for eternal. Theologians have taken all ten, 3 Hebrew, and 7 Greek meanings of the word eternal and have come up with what they feel is forever or everlasting. I'll list them....

1. H3068
יְהֹוָה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.
Total KJV occurrences: 6521

2. H5769
עֹלָם עוֹלָם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.
Total KJV occurrences: 438

3. H6924
קֵדְמָה קֶדֶם
qedem qêdmâh
keh'-dem, kayd'-maw
From H6923; the front, of palce (absolutely the fore part, relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially (before, anciently, eastward): - aforetime, ancient (time), before, east (end, part, side, -ward), eternal, X ever (-lasting), forward, old, past. Compare H6926.
Total KJV occurrences: 87

4. G126
ἀΐ́διος
aidios
ah-id'-ee-os
From G104; everduring (forward and backward, or foward only): - eternal, everlasting.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

5. G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 128

6. G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Total KJV occurrences: 71

7.G684
ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
Total KJV occurrences: 20

8. G1685
ἐμβάλλω
emballō
em-bal'-lo
From G1722 and G906; to throw on, that is, (figuratively) subject to (eternal punishment): - cast into.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

9. G3801
ὁ ὢν ὁ ἦν ὁ ἐρχόμενος
ho ōn ho ēn ho erchomenos
ho own ho ane ho er-khom'-enos
A phrase combining G3588 with the present participle and imperfect of G1510 and the present participle of G2064 by means of G2532; the one being and the one that was and the one coming, that is, the Eternal, as a divine epithet of Christ. (Each “and” (G2532) was ommited from the phrase because of limited space.): - which art (is, was), and (which) wast (is, was), and art (is) to come (shalt be).
Total KJV occurrences: 4

10. G5020
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o'-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

There you have them....God bless.

 

[Bick]

Thank you for your input, Chopper. Maybe you are aware that "the usage of a word determines its meaning." If we take a KJV bible and read all the verses where any of the three time words are used, we will find that subject (s) in practically all cases, do not exist "for ever." Such as: the rainbow promise;
the land given to Israel; the Aaronic priesthood; all the rituals and rules given by Moses; the servant serving his master; the spoils of Ai; the "everlasting hills"; the gates of the then Jerusalem, and many more.
Personally, I don't believe humans in those days had any concept of "eternity."

 

[Bick]

Consider the Greek scriptures:
Regardless of how the "scholars" render "aion" and "aionios,
by their usage they should be rendered "age" and "age lasting"
or "age during." Ref: Young's Literal Translation, Rotherham's
Emphasized Bible, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott ànd the Concordant
Version of the New Testament (actually "eon" and "eonian" are used.

​

 

[Chopper]

Yes Bick. Usage is a big test of words. Even different customs and Countries where language differs.

 

[atpollard]

Personally, I don't believe humans in those days had any concept of "eternity."

I can't speak to the ancient Hebrews, but the Greeks were aware of the concept by around BC 450 at least since Zeno's Paradoxes on motion touch on the concept of infinite time. That would probably be close to the time Ezra and Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem.

 

[Bick]

Continuing: yes, "aidios" is usually translated "eternal." I have one version where it is rendered "imperceptible".

Too many places in most English Versions, "world" is used for "aion" instead of "age" which adds to the confusion. As you know, "kosmos" is the word for "world."

Again, take the word "never." In John 4:51,2 we read in most versions, "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see/taste of death."
NOTICE: this is not true for anyone who keeps His saying. But, translated correctly it would read "death no not shall see for the eon."
Christ came preaching to Israel repent for the kindom of the heavens is ay hand. Their hope was to be resurrected and live during the Messianic Kingdom (the coming age), which is what He promised.

The ages come to an end (Heb 9:27). There are ages past (Rom.16:25 )
"...in age-past times kept silent..." Rotherham Bible
This present age we are living in: Rom.12: 2; 1Cor. 1:20, 2: 6, 8; Gal. 1:4.
There are ages to come: Eph. 1:19, 2:7.
God has a plan for the ages: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him." (Eph. 1:10) KJV.
Also Col. 1:20 tells us that God through Christ will reconcile all things unto him making peace through the blood of his cross. HALLELUJAH!
God through Christ made the ages (worlds KJV). Heb. 1:2; He is the king of the ages, "Now unto the King of the ages--Incorruptible, invisible, alone God be honor and glory unto the ages of the ages."









As for the ages of time, they are not endless. There are ages past (Rom. 16:25), the present age

 

[smaller]

Thank you for your input, Chopper. Maybe you are aware that "the usage of a word determines its meaning." If we take a KJV bible and read all the verses where any of the three time words are used, we will find that subject (s) in practically all cases, do not exist "for ever." Such as: the rainbow promise;
the land given to Israel; the Aaronic priesthood; all the rituals and rules given by Moses; the servant serving his master; the spoils of Ai; the "everlasting hills"; the gates of the then Jerusalem, and many more.

We should understand that the O.T. is more than anything, a deployment of types, shadows, figures, similitude's and things to come. Heb. 10:1, Hos. 12:10, Col. 2:16-17, etc at length.

Therefore where we see terms therein, in the O.T. and find deployments of "everlasting" or "forever" we need to bring in the appropriate understandings.

Personally, I don't believe humans in those days had any concept of "eternity."

Hebrews/Israel had the concept of eternity from the beginning. Gen. 3:22.

So did people who looked into the night sky and endless space.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The bottom line with the poster in question is this. He wants to claim that the soul of the unbeliever terminates. There is proof of the continuation of man's soul post death. There is also proof of "destruction." But that destruction or destroying does not equate to "discontinuation."

2 Thessalonians 1:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Chopper]

We should understand that the O.T. is more than anything, a deployment of types, shadows, figures, similitude's and things to come. Heb. 10:1, Hos. 12:10, Col. 2:16-17, etc at length.

Therefore where we see terms therein, in the O.T. and find deployments of "everlasting" or "forever" we need to bring in the appropriate understandings.


Hebrews/Israel had the concept of eternity from the beginning. Gen. 3:22.

So did people who looked into the night sky and endless space.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The bottom line with the poster in question is this. He wants to claim that the soul of the unbeliever terminates. There is proof of the continuation of man's soul post death. There is also proof of "destruction." But that destruction or destroying does not equate to "discontinuation."

2 Thessalonians 1:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I'm glad that you posted your Scriptural evidence of "everlasting destruction" because it's the Truth. There seems, that I've read several folk in our membership, that believe the soul of unbelievers terminate upon death. The involvement in the lake of fire extinguishes their soul. Their opinions of fire that completely destroys, is their supposed truth.

 

[Bick]

We should understand that the O.T. is more than anything, a deployment of types, shadows, figures, similitude's and things to come. Heb. 10:1, Hos. 12:10, Col. 2:16-17, etc at length.

Therefore where we see terms therein, in the O.T. and find deployments of "everlasting" or "forever" we need to bring in the appropriate understandings.


Hebrews/Israel had the concept of eternity from the beginning. Gen. 3:22.

So did people who looked into the night sky and endless space.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The bottom line with the poster in question is this. He wants to claim that the soul of the unbeliever terminates. There is proof of the continuation of man's soul post death. There is also proof of "destruction." But that destruction or destroying does not equate to "discontinuation."

2 Thessalonians 1:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Bick]

It doesn't sound like you have a grip on the basics Butch, such as devils being 'in and with' mankind. Just where do you think these wicked spirits go when a person dies or they are cast out? It's not the LoF, yet. That was my point. And the citings correspond to that fact.

So we either understand the Divine Principle that's going on with the scriptures or we don't. I honestly don't know how anyone can read the Gospels and NOT see that that the devil and his messengers operate IN MAN.

Surprisingly though, an unfortunate amount of readers miss the most blatantly obvious matter of the N.T. in that regards. Mark 4:15.



The little drill:

Butch: Gehenna is the LoF
me: The LoF comes at the conclusion of this wicked age. Gehenna is prior to the finale.

The LoF has not transpired yet and is EASILY proven not to have transpired yet. Sin still exists in the world, sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, therefore the devil is NOT yet in the LoF. Fairly easy to understand.



It would appear that the entire category of subject matter of "the dead" sailed by you awhile back in this thread.

Moving on. You can have the last word. I don't entertain those who have no interests in understanding other positions. I understand every position you have because I "took the time" to examine them.

Do me a likewise courtesy sometime.

Later.

Where is the literal LOF today that "disembodied souls" of unbelievers, with no brain, no senses, unable to feel anything, are suposedly in torment before being judged?

Imagine, an all loving, gracious God will have the majority of His own creation suffer torment in flames of fire, some for thousands of years. How preposterous! Yet, the truth is, it can't be "eternally", for they must be raised to be judged for their deeds by Christ on His great white throne!
A study will show that the teaching of "immortal soul" and "conscious eternal punishment of the wicked" started with Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century A.D.
There was nothing like this in the Originals, and this
can be affirmed by going to literal translations such as: Young's Literal Translation, Rotherham's Bible and Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott.

Certainly the Bible is full of figures of speech, metaphors, but we IMO, must read it as literal, unless the context shows different.
For instance, "Being dead in trespasses and sin." Paul was addressing people who, obviously, weren't literally dead; they were figuratively dead.
And the same for the man Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead." Only one was literally dead.

 

[smaller]

Where is the literal LOF today that "disembodied souls" of unbelievers, with no brain, no senses, unable to feel anything, are suposedly in torment before being judged?

If you came up with that kind of a question from reading my posts/content I'd suggest to go back and read them over again.

Imagine, an all loving, gracious God will have the majority of His own creation suffer torment in flames of fire, some for thousands of years. How preposterous! Yet, the truth is, it can't be "eternally", for they must be raised to be judged for their deeds by Christ on His great white throne!

Your sight leaves out other possibilities, which I also covered prior. FOR EXAMPLE, we know that there are anti-Christ spirit(s), emphasis, spirit(s) from 1 John 4:3, which if you read that term you'd laugh at the ignorance of the first question above. We have departed the "literal arena" and went into the unseen. Are there literal antiChrist spirits? Yes, but we should know enough to say they are not "literal" in our 5 sense world application of the term literal.

Do we really have any idea what an anti-Christ spirit really is, other than against Christ in every way? I'd suggest that the LoF could even be a form of anti-heaven for anti-Christ spirits.

So needless to say I haven't bought into the "classic nonsense sensationalism" that the subject of the LoF has attached to it by the torturing fire mongers who use it to manipulate their flocks with FEAR. I don't suffer manipulation well, or for long.

A study will show that the teaching of "immortal soul" and "conscious eternal punishment of the wicked" started with Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century A.D.
There was nothing like this in the Originals,

And I'd suggest you're not paying attention. The eventual destruction, both present tense and permanent tense, of the wicked is written about from cover to cover in the Bible. Jesus certainly didn't change the courses of those disclosures. He actually made it more amplified. See examples such as Matt. 23:33 and Matt. 25:41 for two of MANY such disclosures. Jude 1:7 similar. Paul had similar disclosures in 2 Thes. 1:8. James in James 5:3. Peter in 2 Peter 3:7. Even in the O.T. a sent away to the wilderness scapegoat is part of the rituals for purposes of judgments.

These concepts are not recent inventions in any case, although I wouldn't disagree that certain older sects twisted the sights beyond any legitimate recognition, such as with your Augustine observation above. We should know how one upmanship works well enough by now. I don't think Augustine was all that accurate in his assessments, personally. It was manipulating control and fear mongering in the church against the flock. But if we managed to read Paul in Acts 20:29 we should be able to SEE with our own eyes, in retrospect, that Paul was warning about what would come, which DID come in the form of Augustine's sights in this particular matter.

and this
can be affirmed by going to literal translations such as: Young's Literal Translation, Rotherham's Bible and Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott.

And I'd suggest that you may be having a radical reaction in the reverse of the above.

I asked the opening poster and I'll ask you, what is your problem with the devil and his messengers, clear unseen adverse spiritual entities, being destroyed, tortured, forever and ever in the LoF. IF you have a problem with that, you really shouldn't. It may not be what you think.

Certainly the Bible is full of figures of speech, metaphors, but we IMO, must read it as literal, unless the context shows different.

I have the opposite sight. Very little of the scriptural discourses are strictly literal. They are largely associative terms BECAUSE the information therein confers matters that are spiritual in nature, which matters are unseen to us for the most part. God in the O.T. for example Spoke to the prophets deploying "similitude." Read: NOT LITERAL in/by our 5 sense world. Hos. 12:10. The Bible conveys a priority world, above and superior to our 5 sense world. Paul viewed vast segments of the O.T. as allegory, for example in Gal. 4 and 1 Cor. 9.

Your counter observation may be good for believers who think that there is a literal lake in our literal 5 sense world with literal flesh people in it, but that would be a strawman argument for anyone who is semi familiar with the terms and conditions of more legitimate and acceptable theology dialogs.

So, literal, NO. I certainly don't view the LoF as a 5 sense literal lake of fire. No way. It's in a completely different realm/arena.

Even studying the simple term "FIRE" in the scriptures will yield a superabundance of interesting information, and not all of it in the "dire and foreboding" judgment sense. There are in fact MANY different FIRE and fire associated terms with many different workings, some actually very beneficial to mankind/believers.

Just saying there is one type of fire, only literal and only destructive, would be utter nonsense for Bible study purposes. If anyone took that route I'd have to part company for Bible studies with them quickly with the brand of simple ignorance.

For instance, "Being dead in trespasses and sin." Paul was addressing people who, obviously, weren't literally dead; they were figuratively dead.
And the same for the man Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead." Only one was literally dead.

Indeed, and yes, the term dead, just like fire, does have many different meanings. Not all of them dead in our senses of the "literal physical dead."

We'd all do ourselves well to lend more credence to the details of these matters, and not buy into every little story and posture that rolls down the hills of christian theology.

 

[freewill]

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Please allow me to explain a little more of what I see concerning those verses.

First though I would like you to read a brief history of the life and work of Dr. Spiros Zodhiates presented here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiros_Zodhiates in order to see why I think you should take heed of what he wrote concerning Romans 1:20. His mother tongue was Greek and he is now recognised by many evangelical Christians as an authority in the Koine Greek language.


The apostle Paul then once wrote in his letter to the Romans... “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” Romans 1:19-20 KJV, and these verses have been used throughout much of Christian history in order to teach many to believe and preach that all who will be condemned will have received enough knowledge and understanding of God for Him to justify condemning them to everlasting torment.

In his study helps on Romans 1:20, KJV however, Zodhiates wrote: “The word translated “Godhead” is not the Greek theotes (2320) which indeed would have meant the Godhead; but theiotes (2305) which means merely divinity, the demonstrated power of the Godhead and not the essence and the character of the Godhead. By looking at nature one can conclude that indeed God is all powerful, but not necessarily that He is an all-loving God of righteousness and justice. There is only so much of God that one can know from God’s creation (v. 19), but to know the essence of God as a triune Deity, one needs to receive His revelation by faith. The rejection of what knowledge a person does have of God is what brings condemnation on him.”

Also, the apostle Paul himself explained that before God moved upon him, his ignorance of God was so great that he began working to destroy God's church 1 Timothy 1:13.
Acts 22:4 NIV tells us that he actually “persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison”. If then a Zealous Pharisee like Saul could be so blind to God's self-sacrificing love for fallen mankind and be so violently opposed to God, how can other Jews and Gentiles begin to rightly understand the true meaning of God if they have not first been carefully taught?

“By looking at nature one can conclude that indeed God is all powerful, but not necessarily that He is an all-loving God of righteousness and justice.”


Furthermore, when Paul wrote those words in his letter to the Romans there was no such thing as Darwin’s theory of evolution. As fanciful or as flawed as it may be, this theory that all life on earth began to evolve completely by chance over 3 billion years ago is now being taught by many intellectual and influential atheists involved in ‘science’ as though it was a proven fact. Consequently, it has not only allowed many lost souls to reason God out of their concept of reality but over the years it has also allowed them to indoctrinate a vast and growing number of children to do the same.

It is also now widely taught and believed that according to atheistic or secular science, the universe itself started over 13 billion years ago, and that it was also formed through a purely natural process without any need to include a creator God in the equation. What is more, this theory is also now being taught as fact by the media and by schools and universities to countless millions across the world. The so called evidence for evolution then which atheists and secularists keep gathering, is being naively accepted by more and more lost souls as evidence proving the Genesis account of creation is simply not true. It has therefore become all too easy for many to think it must be right to dismiss out of hand the creation story and the fall of man upon which the rest of the Bible stands as just another myth or fairy story. There are many therefore (agnostics, atheists, humanists, as well as pagans etc.) who are still living and dying never rightly understanding the good they ignored and offended. In which case, those who through no fault of their own were born to die corrupted never knowing the God of truth or never rightly understanding the good they kept offending, would never have been able to understand just how dangerous or offensive they really were. Condemning such as these to be tortured forever then would be like condemning dangerous and hopeless wild animals to suffer in the same way: it would do no good and would be eternally seen as an act of unnecessary and extreme cruelty to say the least.

...and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.

God willing, I will post my reply to smaller's Jan 12 comments later.

 

[smaller]

God willing, I will post my reply to smaller's Jan 12 comments later.

I look forward to seeing how you might eliminate the hard line Word facts of Rev. 20:10, Rev. 21:8, Rev. 22:11 & 15, etc. Should be entertaining.

 

[freewill]

I look forward to seeing how you might eliminate the hard line Word facts of Rev. 20:10, Rev. 21:8, Rev. 22:11 & 15, etc. Should be entertaining.

In Revelation 20:10 we are clearly told, “The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever”. But please note, this verse tells us that only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are spoken of here. No one else is included in this verse.

Revelation 14:9-11 also speaks clearly to me of everlasting torment, “Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”” But note again, we are being told here of everlasting torment coming only upon those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. In other words, this statement made by the third angel does not by any means tell us all of the condemned will be given the same condemnation as the demonic worshippers mentioned here.

Furthermore, those worshippers of Revelation 14:9-11 can be seen worshipping the beast and his image after the “the eternal gospel” was seen being proclaimed “to those who dwell on the earth – to every nation and tribe and language and people”, as Revelation 14:6 explains. In which case, the sentence of endless torment given to those seen worshipping the beast and his image appears to be given not only because of their satanic worship and their receiving of the mark of the beast but also because they were made aware of the eternal gospel. Having been given knowledge of the truth and of the meaning of good and evil, and having been shown the way of salvation those demonic souls are moved only to offend with all the lust and venom of Satan himself. By their unrelenting hatred and contempt for God and truth they will bring the greater condemnation upon themselves.

So yes, God warns of a punishment of endless torment in these verses, but certainly not for every condemned soul.The key to living forever is knowing God but how we react to that knowledge in this life will largely determine our state in eternity. The wages of sin is death as revealed in Genesis chapters 2, 3 and 5 and elsewhere in the Bible, but the wages for the vilest form of evil can also be seen described in Scripture as being a punishment of endless torment. God alone is immortal and He will give immortality to whoever He has decided shall have immortality.

...and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.

 

[Chopper]

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

All "unbelievers" in Christ Jesus, their names are not written in the Lambs Book of life. That includes everyone who is not Blood bought thru Christ Jesus' cross work, EVERYONE! Notice please that they are cast into the lake of fire where Satan and his followers are.