"Symbol of Christianity?"

[WhiteWarrior]

What do you think you know of all those crosses running around in the world did you know the cross is the single most selling piece of jewelry? The bible is the #1 selling book? and Christianity the #1 religion? Well all these amazing statistics make sense considering the amount of faith today which is a good thing but what I want to talk about is "symbols"

Do you know the second commandment?
Exodus 20:4
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below

Deuteronomy 4:15-18
Idolatry Forbidden
You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

Folks it is unfortunate that Christianity has done this they have created images and idols (crosses with jesus a man on them!) mainly the catholic church but still most protestants still have crosses as their symbols.

Why do we need symbols as idols can't we worship God without pictures of painted Jesus? Yashua is painted in my heart I took down the picture my mom had because I don't know this man Jesus in christianity I know Yashua the christ.

What do you think are these symbols bordering idolatry that was forbidden long ago?? Remember a wooden cross won't save you, a paper bible won't save you, a popular religion won't save you, a mystery man won't save you, a only the savior can save you.

 

[handy]

I think there is a world of difference between a symbol and an idol. One is simply a declaration to other folks of a certain mindset one has. I don't think that there is any difference between wearing a necklace with a cross or crucifix on it and wearing a sweatshirt with an American flag with "God Bless America" emblazoned across it or having a "fish" on the bumper of one's car.

For many, the cross even isn't that much of a symbol, as it is a popular form of jewelery. I don't know if you are old enough to remember peace symbols. When I was a kid a necklace with a peace symbol on it was very popular as jewelery. Most of my friends had them, and none of us little 7-10 year olds were radical hippies. I was surprised when my parents wouldn't let me get one, because of what the peace sysmbol represented to them. You see so many today who wear crosses, yet have no affiliation with Christianity. To them, the cross is like the peace symbol was to me when I was a kid, a popular form of jewelery.

I'm not saying that there are not some who do elevate crosses and crucifixes into iconic, even idolarty. If one actually genuflects before a cross, or prays and kisses it, then yes, one is straying into idolarty. Your point about the Bible is a good one. Some raise the physical bible to iconic status, rather than just recognizing that the ink, paper, and paste is nothing, it's the words contained within with which the Spirit brings us to life. Just because some are wrong and do place the ink, paper and paste upon a pedalstal, doesn't mean that we should stop printing bibles.

But for most folks, that simply isn't what wearing a cross is all about. It's just jewelery, that for some is a statement regarding who they are.

 

[Devekut]

I think we also have to consider the laws regarding images in light of the Incarnation...

God entered into this world and became visible in flesh as a man. In this sense Heaven came to earth and revealed spiritual realities in earthly things. God showed us his image.

Of course idolatry is always wrong, but the Incarnation does give us permission to represent Christ with images.

 

[DanR]

We cannot earnestly adhere to commandments we cannot read, unless the OP is leading a reductio ad absurdum.

But I agree about images. Besides, none of those pictures I see depict Jesus' probable appearance, according to Scripture:

short and ugly.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I think there is a world of difference between a symbol and an idol...

There is also a world of difference between having a symbol and worshiping one.

 

[ChristineES]

I will only be in trouble if I start worshiping my cross and my Bible. I haven't done that yet, so I am OK. Icons are different that idols.

 

[Imagican]

Ahh, interesting post.

Indeed, the cross is very popular. But this makes NOTHING clear as to it's validity as a 'symbol' of Faith in ANYTHING other than an 'emblem'.

You have duly noted that we have been COMMADED NOT to worship 'graven' images. Many would 'argue' that simply possessing a 'symbol' is NOT any 'form' of worship.

I have voiced my understanding on this issue in the past. It brought MUCH controversy. For MANY are under the assumption that what they LIKE is more important than following that which we have been COMMANDED.

'Jesus Fish' and 'crosses' do NOT 'make' one a 'Christian'. These sybols are worn by everyone from 'Subversive Rappers' singing about rape, murder, and their LOVE of money, to the likes of Madona and others that report a 'belief' and following of the occult. So simply wearing the emblem is OBVIOUSLY not confined to those that BELIEVE in, or follow Christ.

My view is that if I were Christ, I BELIEVE that each time I was reminded of the PAIN and suffering I endured upon the 'cross' ESPECIALLY by one wearing this emblem that did NOT even UNDERSTAND what it STOOD for, (symbolically speaking), I believe that it would cut me to the bone. Just a 'personal observation' of course.

I will let The Word speak for itself. And I will let the Spirit convict that which it will. And for that which is 'immune' to The Spirit, (un-filled), then it matters LITTLE what I have to offer to 'start with'.

But this is an interesting subject. for 'some' will INSIST upon thier crosses as if it is 'the cross' that they worship rather than Our Savior that suffered upon it. As IF it were a 'piece of wood' that brought them their liberty rather than the Son of God that DIED upon it.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

handy,

But for most folks, that simply isn't what wearing a cross is all about. It's just jewelery, that for some is a statement regarding who they are.

This I would agree upon 100 percent. And it is in the intricacy of what you have stated that would offer an 'expanation' of whether the cross is 'right' or 'wrong' to be USED as a symbol of Christianity. Think about it.

Is 'religion' more important than a following in faith of our Lord and Savior? And, if what you have offered; that there ARE those that wear this 'symbol' that don't even wear it to 'symbolize' their BELIEF AND FAITH IN Christ Jesus, could this POSSIBLY BE a 'way' to comminicate to others our ''belief' AS Christians? For one NEED NOT BE a Christian in order to exhibit this symbol.

Let me ask this of those that don't SEEM to understand the issue: Have you EVER READ the OT and what we have been warned of so far as 'symbols' are concerned? If NOT. Let me know and I will direct you to the information.

It's absolutely amazing how the WORLD has infiltrated The Church. That the WILL of man has OVERCOME the Will of God; EVEN in the churches that 'claim' to BE FOLLOWING TRUTH. And what's MORE amazing is that when those that ENCOUNTER the TRUTH simply choose to ignore it in favor of their 'desires'.

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

If only they would hang something around their neck that said "Don't believe me!"

A nonbeliever with a gold cross hanging around their neck, is still a nonbeliever.


I remember hearing of a boy in school who heard of the above listed commandments. He decided that doing any form of artwork was evil in the sight of God because we were forbidden to make graven images. See how destructive it can be to take part of a verse and proclaim it as a whole.

Adrian Rogers used to say "A half truth proclaimed as a whole truth, is a lie."

 

[Imagican]

If only they would hang something around their neck that said "Don't believe me!"

A nonbeliever with a gold cross hanging around their neck, is still a nonbeliever.


I remember hearing of a boy in school who heard of the above listed commandments. He decided that doing any form of artwork was evil in the sight of God because we were forbidden to make graven images. See how destructive it can be to take part of a verse and proclaim it as a whole.

Adrian Rogers used to say "A half truth proclaimed as a whole truth, is a lie."

And I propose that IF one MAKES one of these 'graven' images and worships it AS God, (or even His Son), that THIS is the POINT that I offered. You have chosen to attempt to INSERT words into a place that they were NOT nor are they offered BY ME.

And a non-believer wearing a cross around their neck IS NOT 'simply' a NON-Believer with a 'cross' around their neck, they are a MOCKER of Christ as would ANY would BE that 'pretend' to BE followers of Christ and DO NOT. In other words, it's NO DIFFERENT that 'proclaiming' to BE a Christian and NOT following Christ. A contradiction which IS Satan's way in which he MOCKS that which is Holy.

And in reference to the 'peace sign' in a previous reply: A peace sign IS nothing other than a 'broken cross'. Do your research and you will find that this ANCIENT symbol was 'adopted' by a 'group' of people that had NO IDEA what it stood for. It was NOT 'created' by Hippies. It IS an ANCIENT symbol used in the occult. NOTHING NEW, just REINVENTED without even an understanding of it's significance to those that adopted it.

Are you people unaware of the POWER of words and symbols? Do you NOT 'understand' that these have POWER over the hearts of those that 'worship' them? I would imagine that each of you are aware of the statement offered by Christ that it is NOT what 'goes into your mouth' that makes one 'unclean', but what comes OUT OF IT. Do you UNDERSTAND what this is SAYING?

Words and SYMBOLS have POWER. The words that we utter have the power to KILL, to HEAL, to CREATE, etc.......... And the symbols that we choose ARE WORDS with MEANING, cemented in the design whether it be gold, silver, bronze or PAINT. Even that offered in GESTURE by the formation of sybols created by the manipulation of one's HAND. We were EVEN told to beware of the 'symbolism' of the HANDSHAKE. For it HAS a 'purpose'. They are NOT simply 'play things'. To even THINK this is to be UNAWARE of the TRUTH. But then, I guess the addage; 'Ignorance is Bliss' certainly has a ring of 'truth' to it.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I will only be in trouble if I start worshiping my cross and my Bible. I haven't done that yet, so I am OK. Icons are different that idols.

The ONLY 'difference' is in their DESIGN and PURPOSE. And icon IS an IDOL if it emphasises WORSHIP of said item.

And the SIMPLE FACT that some seem ADDICTED to 'crosses and such', PROVE that they ARE INDEED items of 'worship'.

For we WORSHIP that which we ADORE. And to ADORE it to LOVE. That which we LOVE, IS that which we WORSHIP.

Been through this before with some of the 'same' people. Surprised that they still remain ignorant as to WHAT 'worship' IS.

MEC

 

[turnorburn]

What then the word graven, and what's this all about with Jesus hanging on the cross. He finished that, so why did we put him back up there? I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander, God said it, I believe it, that settles it. If you want to know the mind of God read the Scriptures, but isn't that the way we are? when he says no we say yes. Its been that way from the beginning. I suppose we could start up a thread on graven images, but I prefer not to, I refuse to debate with our creator..

In His Service,
turnorburn

I think there is a world of difference between a symbol and an idol. One is simply a declaration to other folks of a certain mindset one has. I don't think that there is any difference between wearing a necklace with a cross or crucifix on it and wearing a sweatshirt with an American flag with "God Bless America" emblazoned across it or having a "fish" on the bumper of one's car.

For many, the cross even isn't that much of a symbol, as it is a popular form of jewelery. I don't know if you are old enough to remember peace symbols. When I was a kid a necklace with a peace symbol on it was very popular as jewelery. Most of my friends had them, and none of us little 7-10 year olds were radical hippies. I was surprised when my parents wouldn't let me get one, because of what the peace sysmbol represented to them. You see so many today who wear crosses, yet have no affiliation with Christianity. To them, the cross is like the peace symbol was to me when I was a kid, a popular form of jewelery.

I'm not saying that there are not some who do elevate crosses and crucifixes into iconic, even idolarty. If one actually genuflects before a cross, or prays and kisses it, then yes, one is straying into idolarty. Your point about the Bible is a good one. Some raise the physical bible to iconic status, rather than just recognizing that the ink, paper, and paste is nothing, it's the words contained within with which the Spirit brings us to life. Just because some are wrong and do place the ink, paper and paste upon a pedalstal, doesn't mean that we should stop printing bibles.

But for most folks, that simply isn't what wearing a cross is all about. It's just jewelery, that for some is a statement regarding who they are.

 

[francisdesales]

What then the word graven, and what's this all about with Jesus hanging on the cross. He finished that, so why did we put him back up there? I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander, God said it, I believe it, that settles it. If you want to know the mind of God read the Scriptures, but isn't that the way we are? when he says no we say yes. Its been that way from the beginning. I suppose we could start up a thread on graven images, but I prefer not to, I refuse to debate with our creator..

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock and unto the Gentiles foolishness; but unto those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ [is] the power of God, and the wisdom of God. For that which is foolish of God is wiser than men, and that which is weak of God is stronger than men. 1 Cor 1:22-25

Yes, we should listen to God speaking - the Gospel is that Jesus died and has Risen. And WE continue to preach Christ crucified. God's wisdom is greater than man's so we should accept that and remember that Christ did die on a cross. The corpus is a reminder that God became flesh and redeemed us - Oh, what a price we have been purchased for...

Consider why Paul said "we preach Christ crucified", rather than "we preach Christ risen"...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

For we WORSHIP that which we ADORE. And to ADORE it to LOVE. That which we LOVE, IS that which we WORSHIP.

Been through this before with some of the 'same' people. Surprised that they still remain ignorant as to WHAT 'worship' IS.

MEC

What a very strange train of logic and I wonder if YOU know what "worship" is, in the Biblical sense. (not poetic)

We are commanded to love our neighbors BY GOD. EVERYONE is our neighbor. Thus, we are to love EVERYONE. Unfortunately, you equate love with worship. According to you, it appears that God commands us to worship our neighbor AND worship ONLY Him. Is God contradicting Himself?

Rather, I think there is a major flaw in your argument.

Regards

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Another thing that Adrian Rodgers used to say:

"You would never scold a blind person for not being able to see. So don't ever scold a non-Christian for not acting like a Christian."

 

[Imagican]

For we WORSHIP that which we ADORE. And to ADORE it to LOVE. That which we LOVE, IS that which we WORSHIP.

Been through this before with some of the 'same' people. Surprised that they still remain ignorant as to WHAT 'worship' IS.

MEC

What a very strange train of logic and I wonder if YOU know what "worship" is, in the Biblical sense. (not poetic)

We are commanded to love our neighbors BY GOD. EVERYONE is our neighbor. Thus, we are to love EVERYONE. Unfortunately, you equate love with worship. According to you, it appears that God commands us to worship our neighbor AND worship ONLY Him. Is God contradicting Himself?

Rather, I think there is a major flaw in your argument.

Regards

Yes fran,

I not only equate love with worship but state that they ARE the SAME. And we are commanded to worship God ABOVE all else.

You would most definitely call it 'strange'. For your belief would NOT allow such an understanding. For the CC to TEACH that LOVE = Worship would be to prove that they WORSHIP many things that we have been commanded NOT to worship.

I will leave it to YOU fran. Have you ever took the time to 'look up' what 'worship' IS?

Those that live FOR the world worship those things OF this world, (the creature over the Creator). But if one can 'alter' in their minds and hearts WHAT worship IS, then they are able to DO so 'without' accepting the conviction in their hearts.

It is NOT worship of money that is stated in The Word, but the LOVE of.................. And I contend that if there be those that DO NOT recognize the 'meaning' of the word, then they are most certainly unable to understand the PRINCIPLE, (most elemental), of that offered by God and HIs Son.

Perhaps we 'begin' to SEE why there are SO many that refute most EVERYthing that I offer. WOW, could this 'truly' BE? That there are so many that 'claim' understanding but don't understand even the 'basics' of the book that they 'claim' to be instructed by.

fran,

I have NOT been exposed to a 'religion' that would discourage the reading of The Word. I, therefore have 'chosen' to read it. And not JUST for the sake of 'having something to read', but in an attempt to "UNDERSTAND" what has been offered in it's pages. That 'deeper meaning' that so many seem to have LOST INTEREST in.

But I will stop here, (for now). You do the 'good folks' out there a favor and explain to them WHAT 'worship' IS. I have offered my definition, you give em yours.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Another thing that Adrian Rodgers used to say:

"You would never scold a blind person for not being able to see. So don't ever scold a non-Christian for not acting like a Christian."

gabby,

I 'thought' that we were discussing 'TRUTH' here. I didn't realize that it was some kind of 'game'.

I have scolded nor judged ANYONE other than their ACTIONS; whether they do or do NOT adhere to the teachings of Christ and His apostles. And this we HAVE been TOLD to DO. There is NO way that we can understand what is truth and what is NOT if we simply sit back and say; "oh, it's ok, ain't that cute". We MUST start by the ACCEPTANCE of truth whether it CONFORMS to our 'desires' or NOT.

I ask YOU, personally. HOW would you FEEL if you had offered such a PAINFUL sacrifice for those that remembered you to wear a PISTOL, or a NOOSE, or a model of a bacteria, or switchblade around their neck. If you were able to 'see' this AFTER your death, HOW would you FEEL about it? Now is THIS Love of your Savior?

And I contend that it was the 'gentiles' that created this 'worship' of a symbol. The 'same' people that NAILED Christ TO the cross. For there was NO cross in Judaism. It was a ROMAN custom. So this sybol would have had NO significance to the Jews other than a 'sign of fear'. Just as a 'noose' seems to infuriate the black community, I would propose that the Jews would have viewed it in the EXACT same way durring the time that the Romans USED it to MURDER Jews.

I await your reply

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

gabby,

I 'thought' that we were discussing 'TRUTH' here. I didn't realize that it was some kind of 'game'.

Ditto. Just a reminder that non Christians can not be expected to behave like Christians. Even if it were possible to clean em up and make em follow the rules, they would still be non Christians.

I have scolded nor judged ANYONE other than their ACTIONS; whether they do or do NOT adhere to the teachings of Christ and His apostles. And this we HAVE been TOLD to DO. There is NO way that we can understand what is truth and what is NOT if we simply sit back and say; "oh, it's ok, ain't that cute". We MUST start by the ACCEPTANCE of truth whether it CONFORMS to our 'desires' or NOT.

I don't quite follow you here. Your thread is questioning the symbol of Christianity and what is or is not proper, correct? Keeping in line with my previous post, and building on that thought, this is the opinion that I hold:
I see nothing wrong with a Christian wearing a gold Cross.
It makes no difference if a non Christian does.

I ask YOU, personally. HOW would you FEEL if you had offered such a PAINFUL sacrifice for those that remembered you to wear a PISTOL, or a NOOSE, or a model of a bacteria, or switchblade around their neck. If you were able to 'see' this AFTER your death, HOW would you FEEL about it? Now is THIS Love of your Savior?

Been there done that. Some of the worst abuse I have suffered has been at the hand of folks that I have tried to help. Some days I can understand perfectly why Jesus did what He did. Other days I wonder why He bothered.

And I contend that it was the 'gentiles' that created this 'worship' of a symbol. The 'same' people that NAILED Christ TO the cross. For there was NO cross in Judaism. It was a ROMAN custom. So this sybol would have had NO significance to the Jews other than a 'sign of fear'. Just as a 'noose' seems to infuriate the black community, I would propose that the Jews would have viewed it in the EXACT same way durring the time that the Romans USED it to MURDER Jews.

I await your reply

MEC

Perhaps I could relate to the point that you are trying to make. Having grown up on a slave farm, I tend to think it foolish when someone displays a confederate flag with the claim that they do it in honor of their grandfathers ~ everyone else sees it as a symbol of slavery. Ironically, they live in a country where they are free to do so. To one, the flag says grandfather, but to another it says that the person bearing the flag is in agreement to slavery.

Not so with the cross. I tend to believe that when anyone sees the symbol of the cross, their immediate thought is "Christianity". I suppose it is in the eye of the beholder. Scripture has much to say about the cross. So do some of the most beloved hymns and choruses. I tend to think that the enemy of the Cross would like nothing better than to see that symbol abolished.

Wearing a cross around one's neck. What a great reminder of Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Paul tells us in Col 1:20 and Col 2:14 about the power of the Cross:
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

In fact, Paul even goes so far as to say that he glories in the cross.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

MEC,
What is it that you would have us do?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

This started going through my mind after my last post:

So I'll cherish the old rugged cross,
till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
and exchange it some day for a crown.

Then I thought of one of my favorite hymns:


I WILL GLORY IN THE CROSS

I boast not of works or tell of good deeds, for not have I done to merit His grace
All glory and praise shall rest upon Him, so willing to die in my place

I will glory in the cross, in the cross, lest His suffering all be in vain
I will weep no more, for the cross that He bore, but I will glory in the cross

My trophies and crown, my robe stained with sin, twas all that I had to lay at His feet
Unworthy to eat from the table of life, until His love made provision for me

I will glory in the cross, in the cross, lest His suffering all be in vain
I will weep no more, for the cross that He bore, but I will glory in the cross

I will weep no more for the cross that He bore but I will glory in the cross
I will glory in the cross!


By the way MEC, I was addressing the op, and it appears as if you have taken my comments personally.

 

[Imagican]

No gabby,

Not 'personal'. There has been little offered in this thread so I simply addressed you for you ARE one that has replied.

You make reference to songs devoted to Christ dying on the cross. I ask you, what does this have to DO with a 'symbol' worn around one's neck? UNLESS of course, this song is devoted NOT to Christ, but the 'cross' itself?

And, you have offered that the 'flag' of the confederacy CAN bring feelings of fear and sadness for those that accept it in the manner of it 'symbolizing' slavery. I would disagree but that is NOT what we are here to discuss. To some certainly, but to others it stood for a 'government' that was never allowed to succeed.

And in the 'same' manner, I would offer that the 'flag' is NOT to BE worshiped EITHER.

We were NOT told NOT to worship 'certain graven images'. The command expressedly commanded that 'thou shalt worship NO graven image". Pretty explicit this commandment. Now, it's ONLY a 'matter' of determining WHAT an image IS. And then, what worship IS. When we come to the TRUTH of these TWO, ONLY then are we able to make an accurate determination of WHAT this commandment LITERALLY means.

I cannot convince ANYONE of ANYTHING that 'chooses' to accept something different. But I can offer that in the same 'respect' of the LOVE OF MONEY, worship could be substituted for the word LOVE and it would have the SAME meaning. And there is NO difference in worshiping money, sex, drugs, rock n roll, chocolate, or gold and diamonds. The end result is the 'same'. Placing something MATERIAL above or equal to that which is Spiritual.

So, I do believe that I have attempted to 'stay' with the OP. Sometimes one cannot offer every word in reply to someone else BY staying completely within the topic, but I usually try. Somethings I guess are just DEEPER than some 'understand'. And in this manner it may 'seem' that the replies vere away. I can tell that often I need start at the beginning instead of the end of 'understanding'.

And gabby, you and I have participated in many such debates. I hope that you know me well enough by now to know that I pick on NO ONE intentionally. i simply reply to those that ARE participating. I, like anyone else can get frustrated when they are 'ganged up on', but even when this happens I simply attempt to TYPE FASTER, (he he he). I take NOTHING on these forums 'personal'. For I KNOW no one here and they don't know me. So, while I might get frustrated and filled with 'unbelief' at times, (no, my faith is NEVER shaken, just the incredulity of some of the statements that I read), I do NOT take offense.

MEC