"Symbol of Christianity?"

[Imagican]

Free,

That's an EASY one:

Graven Image: ANYTHING made by the hands of MEN that resembles ANYTHING either LIVING or DEAD. And that's a LITERAL; ANYTHING. Carving, sculpture, drawing, painting, casting, engraving, ect...............

The Bible even goes into 'what' a graven image IS.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Free,

That's an EASY one:

Graven Image: ANYTHING made by the hands of MEN that resembles ANYTHING either LIVING or DEAD. And that's a LITERAL; ANYTHING. Carving, sculpture, drawing, painting, casting, engraving, ect...............

The Bible even goes into 'what' a graven image IS.

MEC

Yea, like the angels on the Ark of the Covenant that God told Moses to build only a few chapters later...

Anything???

 

[Gabe]

Using your definition, how does a cross shape qualify as a graven image? It does not represent anything living nor dead.

 

[Imagican]

Free,

That's an EASY one:

Graven Image: ANYTHING made by the hands of MEN that resembles ANYTHING either LIVING or DEAD. And that's a LITERAL; ANYTHING. Carving, sculpture, drawing, painting, casting, engraving, ect...............

The Bible even goes into 'what' a graven image IS.

MEC

Yea, like the angels on the Ark of the Covenant that God told Moses to build only a few chapters later...

Anything???

There is a MAJOR difference in WE 'choosing' to make 'graven images' of OUR OWN DESIGN and following the INSTRUCTION of God to create HIS will and HIS design..........

And you will find that there were ONLY a COUPLE of instances where God commanded that specific items BE created for specific purposes. The banner with snakes and the ark. Later there were specific designs offered concerning the 'temple'. But these examples are the EXCEPTION rather than the RULE and these exceptions were GIVEN by God Himself.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Using your definition, how does a cross shape qualify as a graven image? It does not represent anything living nor dead.

If it does NOT represent 'something DEAD', then PLEASE, by all means, tell us what it DOES represent? It most certainly represents the MEANS by which the Romans murdered their enemies or those that they considered criminals. No different than the 'hangman's noose' or the 'electric chair'. These ARE objects 'created by the hands of MEN' JUST like the cross used to murder Christ.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

There is a MAJOR difference in WE 'choosing' to make 'graven images' of OUR OWN DESIGN and following the INSTRUCTION of God to create HIS will and HIS design..........

What is that MAJOR difference? According to you, its OK if God breaks His own commandments a few chapters later? THAT is our example to follow??? "Do as I say, not as I do", according to YOU???

I posit that God doesn't mean what you are saying...

Making idols for the purpose of worship is offensive to God, not creating art. We have already had this long conversation, and nothing has changed, I guess.

Regards

 

[Gabe]

Using your definition, how does a cross shape qualify as a graven image? It does not represent anything living nor dead.

If it does NOT represent 'something DEAD', then PLEASE, by all means, tell us what it DOES represent? It most certainly represents the MEANS by which the Romans murdered their enemies or those that they considered criminals. No different than the 'hangman's noose' or the 'electric chair'. These ARE objects 'created by the hands of MEN' JUST like the cross used to murder Christ.

MEC

According to the definition you provided us, that still does not make a cross a graven image. Are you making this all up, as you go along?

 

[Free]

Free,

That's an EASY one:

Graven Image: ANYTHING made by the hands of MEN that resembles ANYTHING either LIVING or DEAD. And that's a LITERAL; ANYTHING. Carving, sculpture, drawing, painting, casting, engraving, ect...............

The Bible even goes into 'what' a graven image IS.

MEC

I'm sure I've told you this before but you are wrong. And that is what happens when you take things out of context. The Bible is clear that "graven image" is anything that is formed by men for the purpose of worshiping that very thing in and of itself.

As has been pointed out, the logic or your response can lead to all sorts of absurd conclusions.

 

[Imagican]

There is a MAJOR difference in WE 'choosing' to make 'graven images' of OUR OWN DESIGN and following the INSTRUCTION of God to create HIS will and HIS design..........

What is that MAJOR difference? According to you, its OK if God breaks His own commandments a few chapters later? THAT is our example to follow??? "Do as I say, not as I do", according to YOU???

I posit that God doesn't mean what you are saying...

Making idols for the purpose of worship is offensive to God, not creating art. We have already had this long conversation, and nothing has changed, I guess.

Regards

What you insist IS 'art' doesn't exist in The Word. That is man's way of defining HIS OWN will.

Show me God's GRANTING the ability to create art as described in The Word.................

What you call art can be anything from 'graven images' to pornography. Man exercising HIS will in total disregard to the commandments of God Himself.

What God commands CANNOT disobey HIS will or commandments. As I already 'tried' to explain; When God told us to take unto us NO graven images, His intent in this command was NOT confining to HIMSELF. His desire was to KEEP us from creating 'false gods' for us to worship.

But when He HIMSELF commands that an object be made, that is NOT the same as US creating our OWN will.

There IS a commandment that also says that we are NOT to kill. But we know from the Word that God HAS commanded that His followers KILL. There is a difference in US deciding who we will kill for OUR will and God commanding us to kill for HIS WILL. Nothing contradictory here. For we are like newborns in the knowledge of God. His wisdom is NOT the 'same as ours'. His is to do with as HE wills.

Fran, I have read your posts and you know as well as I that there are 'symbolic' words offered and then there are LITERAL words offered. The difference is in UNDERSTANDING. Some are obvious and some are much more subtle. You KNOW this. yet you continue to deny that which you haven't been 'taught'.

The words that I offer are as plain and pure as they can be. I am 'creating NOTHING' nor am I simply interpreting what I WANT them to BE. I am simply offering them as they have been offered to me. I am NOT a 'genius' and don't NEED to be in order to understand the 'will of God'. All I have to do is SUBMIT to His will and allow HIM to guide my understanding. That and TRUST what He offers without allowing OTHERS to influence those 'truths'.

The world is lost and the world would like nothing better than to take ALL with it. The world has learned to love it's OWN and teach that WE are our OWN God's and able to create our OWN will. This is an illusion and a lie created by and perpetuated by the Father of LIES. For this is EXACTLY the means of HIS demise and what he wishes for us ALL that are willing to follow the SAME path.

Think about it.............

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

What you insist IS 'art' doesn't exist in The Word. That is man's way of defining HIS OWN will.

Show me God's GRANTING the ability to create art as described in The Word...............

Say what? You want the bible to tell you it is OK to breath, eat, and color with crayons???



If you really want evidence, look into the building of the Ark in Exodus. God took men already TRAINED in arts and crafts to build Him a quality item, not made in China...

What you call art can be anything from 'graven images' to pornography. Man exercising HIS will in total disregard to the commandments of God Himself.

The Bible doesn't tell us it is wrong to create art, only to worship false gods.

What God commands CANNOT disobey HIS will or commandments. As I already 'tried' to explain; When God told us to take unto us NO graven images, His intent in this command was NOT confining to HIMSELF. His desire was to KEEP us from creating 'false gods' for us to worship.

But when He HIMSELF commands that an object be made, that is NOT the same as US creating our OWN will.

Still, the point is that man is not prevented from building or creating art - unless its reasoning is to supplant God Himself.

There IS a commandment that also says that we are NOT to kill.

Actually, the command is not to murder. But that's another discussion.

Fran, I have read your posts and you know as well as I that there are 'symbolic' words offered and then there are LITERAL words offered. The difference is in UNDERSTANDING. Some are obvious and some are much more subtle. You KNOW this. yet you continue to deny that which you haven't been 'taught'.

Oh, yea, I agree. Understanding words are helpful. It boggles the mind that you put forth such an interpretation that all art is banned by God, that's all.

The words that I offer are as plain and pure as they can be.

Plainly wrong, Mike. Have you ever considered the most holy of places in the Old Testament was full of ornate art, the building ITSELF being a testimony to man's desire to build beautiful buildings for the worship of God?

No, you probably haven't. Rather than allowing some common sense to invade your theories, you prefer to rant on something that a hopelessly minisicule minority of Christians would agree with (thankfully). It smacks of extremism akin to the Taliban in Afghanistan who destroyed a number of cherished pieces of culture in a similar display of strange interpretation of what they considered Sacred Scriptures. This is not the will of God.

I am 'creating NOTHING' nor am I simply interpreting what I WANT them to BE. I am simply offering them as they have been offered to me. I am NOT a 'genius' and don't NEED to be in order to understand the 'will of God'. All I have to do is SUBMIT to His will and allow HIM to guide my understanding. That and TRUST what He offers without allowing OTHERS to influence those 'truths'.

You still are wrong, no matter how little you create or how unintelligent you are. God's Will is not to destroy art. God's Will is to worship Him and submit to His ways.

The world is lost and the world would like nothing better than to take ALL with it. The world has learned to love it's OWN and teach that WE are our OWN God's and able to create our OWN will. This is an illusion and a lie created by and perpetuated by the Father of LIES. For this is EXACTLY the means of HIS demise and what he wishes for us ALL that are willing to follow the SAME path.

Art is not necessarily associated with the "world" and ways that move man to disregard God. Art often moves the mind TOWARDS God.

Think about it.............

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

This entire subject can be summed up in this:

God IS THE Creator. When we attempt to usurp this authority, we find ourselves in utter contrast to HIS will.

You would contend that it's OK to create. I am of the OPPOSITE spectrum in that I BELIEVE that OUR purpose is to become CLOSER to God in ANY way that we are ABLE.

The creative 'arts' as you would have them is VANITY. It is US 'trying' to BE 'creators'. Yet there is ONLY ONE true Creator. Nothing that we are ABLE to do is able to compete with that which exists in OUR OWN CREATION. In other words; WE WERE CREATED. Everything that we are ABLE to DO was 'given to us'. Nothing NEW under the Sun.

Only in our OWN minds and hearts are we ABLE to 'create' ANYTHING. And that which we DO fool ourselves into believing ARE 'our creations' are only vain ATTEMPTS to create. For ALL that exist WAS created BY Our Creator.

How much MORE could EACH of us accomplish if we spent the TIME spent on ATTEMPTED creation on learning to be CLOSER to Our Creator? How much MORE could we accomplish if we spent that time 'helping others' and bring a deeper understanding of the truth to humanity?

Instead, many would choose to waste their time on trivial pursuits that only offer appeasement to their and other's vanity.

And you don't understand a word of what I speak? Hmmmmm.............

We are commanded to DEVOTE ourselves to God through His Son. IF we are to TRULY believe in Father and Son then there is NOTHING as important that we are ABLE to perform as developing the relationship that we have with God THROUGH His Son. This would BE a FULL TIME JOB. Are we to simply 'sit back' and expect 'someone else' to support us while we persue this relationship? Of course not.

There have ALWAYS been artists as far back as we are able to trace mankind. But we also find that these artists were of OTHER religions. When we study the Israelites we find that there was LITTLE if ANY art involved with their society. There is REASON for this. If they had persued this endeavor there is little doubt that they would have been any LESS inspired than any others that did so. But they didn't. WHY? There can be ONLY ONE REASON. They honored the commandment offered to them and we find that each time that they veered from this they were punished immeasurably.

Of course anyone that would defend this direction would TOTALLY disagree with what I offer. But the picture is really much simpler than those that INSIST upon their OWN way would have it.

We are NOT meant to be FREE to DO whatever we choose. We have been given a basic written guide as to our behavior. That which we exhibit towads God and EACH OTHER. And NO WHERE in this guide is it offered that we are to 'create art' FOR each other.

First of all, we have NO control over our 'breath'. God was brilliant enough to take care of involuntary muscles FOR us so that we wouldn't HAVE to control our breath.

Eating? There is MUCH written of this function. What we were GIVEN TO eat and much offered as to 'how it is to be eaten'.

But NEVER have we been instructed to 'waste' our time creating 'art'. It appeals to man's vanity no different than the jewelry that we have been WARNED about wearing. Many ignore or outright DENY that which takes away from their DESIRES, but the information IS there in written form for ANY to read and understand that SO CHOOSE.

You indicate that because what I offer does NOT conform to this world's VIEW of things that I MUST be wrong. I contend that because YOURS DOES that you would be much more likely to be confused or misled than myself. For the 'world IS lost'. We are to SEPARATE ourselves from this world. Since we are alive this cannot be done in a PHYSICAL way. So it MUST be 'spiritual'. Yet when we accept the WAYS of this world, that IS SPIRITUAL.

He will be greatest that serves the most. This in NOT in reference to 'self service' or vanity.

I find it difficult to understand how ANYONE that has read the Word has obtained not even the mearest GIST of the words that I offer. We can see it in almost EVERY chapter of the NT. The sacrifice that we are to offer is NOT our physical lives in death. But death to the life that the WORLD would have us live. The sacrifice of self FOR others and God through His Son Jesus Christ.

For what is the PURPOSE of 'art' or 'jewelry' if it serves NO purpose in the NEXT LIFE? It ONLY serves to appease our OWN VANITY. Regardless of HOW one tries to justify it for their OWN purposes, it serves NO purpose but OUR OWN. It CANNOT honor God in the least and can ONLY 'take away from' rather than 'add to' our relationship. It can ONLY 'get in the way'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[St Francis]

Is it vanity if I want to proclaim my faith in Christ for all to see? There are many ways to proclaim one's faith: Words, or deeds; love, charity. Maybe wearing a symbol of the faith is yet just another way. I don't think its fair to ascribe the motivation of "vanity" to everyone who wears a cross. One could just as easily say that it is vanity for you to post lengthy posts trying to show us all how knowledgable you are. That argument is just as sound.

 

[Gabe]

The definition of a graven image he provided us, goes against his own arguement. Maybe it would help if he kept his post's short and to the point; less likely to confuse himself that way.

 

[Imagican]

Is it vanity if I want to proclaim my faith in Christ for all to see? There are many ways to proclaim one's faith: Words, or deeds; love, charity. Maybe wearing a symbol of the faith is yet just another way. I don't think its fair to ascribe the motivation of "vanity" to everyone who wears a cross. One could just as easily say that it is vanity for you to post lengthy posts trying to show us all how knowledgable you are. That argument is just as sound.

Isn't it our PURPOSE to KNOW God's will?

If one feels that the knowledge offered to another is vanity if they choose to share it then, so be it. I do not 'think' so.

Our profession of faith means LITTLE in comparison to our 'actions'. That is the TRUE profession of one's faith. How we treat each other and how we develope our relationship with God through His Son.

We have been shown the 'truth' through the Word and there is MORE that is able to be offered to those that are willing to ask and accept it.

We have already been shown that it is the 'world' that recognizes the 'some' are MORE important than others. To those that KNOW and LOVE God, these have NO place in such a 'system' of importance so far as wealth or power.

It was pointed out distinctly that we are NOT to honor one simply for the jewelry they wear or the clothing that they wear. And we also know that the words were offered that it's more difficult for a 'rich man' to enter into heaven than a 'poor one'. This in itself tells us MUCH concerning 'vanity'.
For the man that is vain is able to convince himself that he HAS all that he NEEDS regardless of a relationship with God. This man has already convinced himself that he IS able to BE his OWN God.
Regardless of 'his words', his actions speak MUCH louder in truth.

Ever notice how MOST crosses created to BE jewelry are MADE out the most precious materials known to 'mankind'? Do you NOT believe that there is 'reason' behind this as well? Gold, silver, precious metals and stones? That is EXACTLY what those that WORSHIP such things have used to MAKE their gods since the beginning of history as we know it. We even have a specific example that Aaron USED just such materials to make his 'golden calf'. If there any way to deny the significance offered here?

The dicussion IS 'the cross as a symbol of Christianity'. So I assumed that we were discussing whether it was legitimate or NOT? While there are many words offered concerning the cross of Christ, there is NO indication in ANY place written that we were EVER meant to 'create graven images' of 'the cross'. NEVER ANY indication that it was to hold such a place of reverence that we find it held today. NOT A SINGLE WORD OFFERED.

Yet we DO have the commandment offered to the Hebrews COMMANDING them to make NO graven images.

While Fran would try to compare this commandment to God commissioning work that is HIS will, that is irrelevant. For God is able to KNOW the 'why' of what He offers us when we are often barely even able to HEAR the words. Much LESS able to UNDERSTAND them.

Ours is to FOLLOW. NOT decide whether we WANT to or not. Or to even UNDERSTAND the REASON that we are to follow or how following it will be to our advantage. But we DO know that we have been TOLD to be 'separate' from this world. That the world has ONE understanding and that OURS is to BE 'different'. I see many a Christian, (or those 'claiming to BE'), attempting to SAY that they love and follow God through His Son but choose to DO SO as if they are JUST another 'part' of 'this world'. Is this EVEN POSSIBLE? For MOST of what we have been offered in Word indicates that it is NOT.

For HOW will the world recognize that WE are different if we LIVE JUST AS THEY? What we love and what we 'adore' IS that which we worship. Whether it be power, money, material possessions, sex, drugs, etc............What we DEVOTE our lives TO is that which we LOVE and what we LOVE IS that which we worship.

Now, WHERE does 'art' or symbolism FIT into this equation? For the pagans BEFORE Christ and those that worship 'other gods' and such TODAY use sybolism and art to represent their gods and beliefs. How are we to separate ourselves from those that do the SAME things if we do those same 'things' ourselves. Especially when we consider that WE have commanded NOT to live in such a manner. What kind of testimony do WE offer when we live JUST like those that DON'T believe in Christ? Seems like kind of seriously 'watered down' testimony to ME.

What I offer here are words and ideas. They are certainly NOT for EVERYONE. For most won't even understand them. That is to BE expected. And there will certainly BE those that DO understand them and simply choose to DENY them for their OWN benefit. I simply hope that there may well be those that are TRULY seeking, that have NOT allowed themselves to be influenced to the point that they are able to overcome both in order to HAVE a 'better understanding'. My words are ONLY able to LEAD to understanding. i can MAKE no one do ONE SINGLE THING that they choose NOT to do.

While the churches have fed the flocks bogus teaching for two thousand years, that does NOT make it IMPOSSIBLE to 'overcome' that which is NOT 'truth'. Some HAVE recognized the 'truth' and I can assure you that I am NOT the 'only' person on this planet that HAS this understanding. But it will rarely be spoken of in the organized religions of our day for to do so may well alienate 'some' and that is NOT what the churches WANT. They WANT all the followers of THEIR teachings that they are able to gather. And they will ignore and eliminate whatever they find that discourages others from following THEM. This is apparent when we look around at the different denominations and how they are quickly becoming 'as one' in the WAY in which they congrigate. Their big screens, their music, their 'two lines of scripture a week'. Whatever it takes to PLEASE the congregation: Superbowl parties, yoga classes, singles nights, Whatever they can 'come up with' that is PLEASING to the congregation regardless of the possible 'effects' these things may well have 'AGAINST' the BETTERMENT of the congregation.

But MOST certainly WILL refuse to accept 'these words'. For they are JUST as 'caught up' in their OWN 'pleasure' as the churches are in offering it.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

God IS THE Creator. When we attempt to usurp this authority, we find ourselves in utter contrast to HIS will.

True, and has nothing to do with the idea that God doesn't want us to make art... That is YOUR will, not God's. Man must purge society of all art? You and the Taliban would get along just fine.

You would contend that it's OK to create. I am of the OPPOSITE spectrum in that I BELIEVE that OUR purpose is to become CLOSER to God in ANY way that we are ABLE.

They aren't mutually exclusive. God told us to be fruitful and multiply AND to be stewards of the earth. That means we are tasked with making things. God also gave us the tools mentally to ENJOY art, especially as a means of expression of heart-felt feelings that go beyond words.

The creative 'arts' as you would have them is VANITY.

I'm going to cut to the chase, rather than address each of your rant's points. I have heard them before and they are no less funny then before...

Do you wear clothes? Live in a house? Have money? :naughty

According to you, you are not living God's will, since EVERYTHING is vanity unless we can "take it" to the next life... "Naked we enter and naked we shall leave".

Take care and have a fine day - but try not to look at the wallpaper in your house. It's evil...

And that cat you have... Better get rid of it post-haste! It is vanity and won't get you into heaven. Get rid of that picture of that cat, as well. You might worship it as a graven image...

See how ridiculous this line of reasoning is, Mike? It is just plain silly and is a result of incorrectly interpretating the Word of God.

Regards

 

[St Francis]

Is it vanity if I want to proclaim my faith in Christ for all to see? There are many ways to proclaim one's faith: Words, or deeds; love, charity. Maybe wearing a symbol of the faith is yet just another way. I don't think its fair to ascribe the motivation of "vanity" to everyone who wears a cross. One could just as easily say that it is vanity for you to post lengthy posts trying to show us all how knowledgable you are. That argument is just as sound.

Isn't it our PURPOSE to KNOW God's will?

Yes. But it is just as much our purpose to proclaim our faith.

If one feels that the knowledge offered to another is vanity if they choose to share it then, so be it. I do not 'think' so.

I did not say that vanity was your motivation. I was merely illustrating that the argument of "vanity" that you make against crosses on chains could just as easily be made against your posts. And if vanity is not YOUR motivation, then you should admit that it may not be the motivation of people wearing crosses either.

 

[Imagican]

God IS THE Creator. When we attempt to usurp this authority, we find ourselves in utter contrast to HIS will.

True, and has nothing to do with the idea that God doesn't want us to make art... That is YOUR will, not God's. Man must purge society of all art? You and the Taliban would get along just fine.

Fran,

I have offered my message without involving a SINGLE individual by name. I have also spoken without regards to denomination or individual insult. What you have offered here is a direct attack against ME personally. Comparing my offerings against vanity and the Taliban is a bit extreme wouldn't you say?

You would contend that it's OK to create. I am of the OPPOSITE spectrum in that I BELIEVE that OUR purpose is to become CLOSER to God in ANY way that we are ABLE.

They aren't mutually exclusive. God told us to be fruitful and multiply AND to be stewards of the earth. That means we are tasked with making things. God also gave us the tools mentally to ENJOY art, especially as a means of expression of heart-felt feelings that go beyond words.

You don't KNOW that anything you have offered in this statement has ANY bearing on TRUTH. As far as your statement is concerned it would be JUST as easy to say that these tools were offered by SATAN. For the tree of knowledge which we were COMMANDED NOT to partake of, would be the WAY in which we obtained the tools to which you refer.

The creative 'arts' as you would have them is VANITY.

I'm going to cut to the chase, rather than address each of your rant's points. I have heard them before and they are no less funny then before...

Do you wear clothes? Live in a house? Have money? :naughty

There IS a difference in HAVING these things and 'worshiping them'. I am FORCED, by the nature OF the world in which I live to 'earn money' in order to pay my taxes and buy food and such. But that does NOT dictate that I MUST live FOR these items. I do NOT live in a house that I purchased to IMPRESS others, nor have I decorated it in a manner to impress.

I do have SOME money but it is a means of survival and not something that I LIVE FOR.

According to you, you are not living God's will, since EVERYTHING is vanity unless we can "take it" to the next life... "Naked we enter and naked we shall leave".

I am also forced, by LAW, to live by CERTAIN standards. The law insists that I MUST wear clothing when out in public. And there is a BIG difference in outter wear designed for protection against the elements and those designed and purchased to IMPRESS others. My wardrobe IS very basic and plain. NOT because I fear vanity in the obtainment of garments. I simply don't allow these types of feelings to dominate my life. I am satisfied with 'what I HAVE' without a need or desire to 'have it all'.

Take care and have a fine day - but try not to look at the wallpaper in your house. It's evil...

I don't have 'wall paper' in my house so I don't think I'll have to worry about that one.

And that cat you have... Better get rid of it post-haste! It is vanity and won't get you into heaven. Get rid of that picture of that cat, as well. You might worship it as a graven image...

And if I put my cat ahead of my neighbors or ahead of God then I certainly would have a 'problem'.

See how ridiculous this line of reasoning is, Mike? It is just plain silly and is a result of incorrectly interpretating the Word of God.

No, Fran, it stems from the ability to 'let go' and 'accept'. While many would follow what OTHERS teach them, I have simply chosen to be led by a 'different source'.

And Fran, I didn't come to these understandings TOTALLY through inspiration. I have lived in The World and FOR the world in the past. I am well aware of the subtle way it is able to seduce. I am NOT 'blind' as you and others would indicate. No, far from it, my friend.

At one point we NEED to make decisions and allow our understanding to flourish IF we desire to PLEASE God. The CLOSER we are able to get to HIM the MORE we are able to understand through His urgings. If we allow the things of this world to intervene, we essentially cut ourselves off from what we would otherwise 'be able' to understand. When my car becomes MORE important than the time that I spend in prayer, then that car becomes 'one of my gods'. If money is more important than God or my family, then lucre BECOMES 'my god'.

So many are so confused over such issues that they are unable to even SEE the truth behind the words that I offer here.

We were told to 'run the race like we mean to WIN it'. Not just to 'sign up'.

MEC
Regards

 

[Gabe]

God IS THE Creator. When we attempt to usurp this authority, we find ourselves in utter contrast to HIS will.

True, and has nothing to do with the idea that God doesn't want us to make art... That is YOUR will, not God's. Man must purge society of all art? You and the Taliban would get along just fine.

Fran, I have offered my message without involving a SINGLE individual by name. I have also spoken without regards to denomination or individual insult. What you have offered here is a direct attack against ME personally. Comparing my offerings against vanity and the Taliban is a bit extreme wouldn't you say?

It seems a pretty accurate comparison to me. You may not have insulted anyone on this thread individually but anyone with a pair of eyes can see that your posts are full of insults to anyone in general who does not hold to your viewpoint.

You would contend that it's OK to create. I am of the OPPOSITE spectrum in that I BELIEVE that OUR purpose is to become CLOSER to God in ANY way that we are ABLE.

They aren't mutually exclusive. God told us to be fruitful and multiply AND to be stewards of the earth. That means we are tasked with making things. God also gave us the tools mentally to ENJOY art, especially as a means of expression of heart-felt feelings that go beyond words.

You don't KNOW that anything you have offered in this statement has ANY bearing on TRUTH. As far as your statement is concerned it would be JUST as easy to say that these tools were offered by SATAN. For the tree of knowledge which we were COMMANDED NOT to partake of, would be the WAY in which we obtained the tools to which you refer.

And it would be just as easy to say that they are NOT.

The creative 'arts' as you would have them is VANITY.

I'm going to cut to the chase, rather than address each of your rant's points. I have heard them before and they are no less funny then before...

Do you wear clothes? Live in a house? Have money? :naughty

There IS a difference in HAVING these things and 'worshiping them'. I am FORCED, by the nature OF the world in which I live to 'earn money' in order to pay my taxes and buy food and such. But that does NOT dictate that I MUST live FOR these items. I do NOT live in a house that I purchased to IMPRESS others, nor have I decorated it in a manner to impress.

I do have SOME money but it is a means of survival and not something that I LIVE FOR.

You are right; there IS a difference in HAVING these things and 'worshiping them'. but this is the difference that you continually ignore, when the criticism is aimed at US for wearing a cross. Hypocrite, Mike?

Everything else is a load of nonsense. Its not GOD's word, its MEC's word. Joe has brought up a very good point, which you have countered with rubbish. You are not FORCED TO DO ANYTHING! You do not need a Job, you do not need money and you do not need a house; Christ did not have any of these things and if we are to follow your extreme out-of-context interpretation of Scripture, then neither do you. Apparently, the homeless are more Godly than you.

You have a house..Why? You could have settled for a flat or a room or maybe even the streets, anything else is PURE VANITY.

You have decorated your house but not to impress...Why? You could have left it how it came. When your carpets wear-out, buy a new one? No, just rip it out and make-do with the floorboards, anything else is PURE VANITY.

You have a Job...Why? You do not need a house, you do not need money and the last I heard; a homeless person has no need to pay Tax. As for your food, put your trust in God because He will provide (as He has for millions of homeless people who DO still manage to find food) anything else is PURE VANITY. Think of all the hours you could have dedicated to God but instead you have chosen MONEY.

According to you, you are not living God's will, since EVERYTHING is vanity unless we can "take it" to the next life... "Naked we enter and naked we shall leave".

I am also forced, by LAW, to live by CERTAIN standards. The law insists that I MUST wear clothing when out in public. And there is a BIG difference in outter wear designed for protection against the elements and those designed and purchased to IMPRESS others. My wardrobe IS very basic and plain. NOT because I fear vanity in the obtainment of garments. I simply don't allow these types of feelings to dominate my life. I am satisfied with 'what I HAVE' without a need or desire to 'have it all'.

No, you are NOT forced, by LAW, to live by CERTAIN standard. The law insists that you MUST wear clothing when out in public but it does not say WHAT clothes. You could very easily adopt the simple and modest dress of a Buddhist Monk, but you will not because of.... Vanity and (heaven forbid) it would be TOO unworldly for you to bear.

Take care and have a fine day - but try not to look at the wallpaper in your house. It's evil...

I don't have 'wall paper' in my house so I don't think I'll have to worry about that one.

I still cannot believe that someone who talks as you do, actually owns a house. Material possessions: SATAN will be pleased

And that cat you have... Better get rid of it post-haste! It is vanity and won't get you into heaven. Get rid of that picture of that cat, as well. You might worship it as a graven image...

And if I put my cat ahead of my neighbors or ahead of God then I certainly would have a 'problem'.

Yes, I also highly doubt ANYONE here puts a cross before his or her neighbour or God, but you seem to refuse to accept this, so why should we accept what you say?

See how ridiculous this line of reasoning is, Mike? It is just plain silly and is a result of incorrectly interpretating the Word of God.

No, Fran, it stems from the ability to 'let go' and 'accept'. While many would follow what OTHERS teach them, I have simply chosen to be led by a 'different source'.

You obviously have NOT been able to 'let go' and 'accept' in the way that you expect others to, have you? And the 'different source' that you have chosen, seems like VANITY to me.

Gabriel

 

[francisdesales]

I have offered my message without involving a SINGLE individual by name. I have also spoken without regards to denomination or individual insult. What you have offered here is a direct attack against ME personally. Comparing my offerings against vanity and the Taliban is a bit extreme wouldn't you say?[/b]

I mention your name because you clearly look down upon anyone who doesn't adhere to your personal theological mistakes. I don't attack you personally, just the notion that we are to burn all our art and topple all cultural symbols.

Which, as it happens, is the same idea of the Taliban. Comparisons can be made because the end is the same. With your brow beating sermons and your idea that only you "UNDERSTAND" the Word of God, I can only imagine what sort of world you'd "make" if you had the power the Taliban had in Afghanistan... (note how I use the fancy "quotes and caps" around "understand"...)

You don't KNOW that anything you have offered in this statement has ANY bearing on TRUTH. As far as your statement is concerned it would be JUST as easy to say that these tools were offered by SATAN. For the tree of knowledge which we were COMMANDED NOT to partake of, would be the WAY in which we obtained the tools to which you refer.

Now that's just crazy talk. Again.

The Tree of Knowledge doesn't refer to building things, but the knowledge of good vs. evil.

I wonder if you have considered WHERE God recruited those builders to build the Ark of the Covenant, or Noah's Ark, or the Temple of Jerusalem? Are you seriously saying that man's skill to work with his hands is relegated to growing crops?

:biglaugh

There IS a difference in HAVING these things and 'worshiping them'.

Now, if you only took your own advice to heart, this conversation would end.

None of us here worship the crosses around our necks or the statues in our churches, or paintings in our kitchen...

The rest ...

Gabriel has already answered. No one is "forcing" you to get a job, live in a house, or even wear clothes.

You deny the very things of yourself that you accuse everyone else here of being guilty of. We don't have things to impress, even artwork. Some of us just enjoy it.

So, hopefully, you are beginning to see the hypocrisy of your point. According to every spiritual book that addresses the subject, self-delusion is the biggest and most difficult fault to combat.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Is it vanity if I want to proclaim my faith in Christ for all to see? There are many ways to proclaim one's faith: Words, or deeds; love, charity. Maybe wearing a symbol of the faith is yet just another way. I don't think its fair to ascribe the motivation of "vanity" to everyone who wears a cross. One could just as easily say that it is vanity for you to post lengthy posts trying to show us all how knowledgable you are. That argument is just as sound.

What's MOST important is what we DO, NOT what we SAY.

For those that TRULY follow Christ will be apparent in their ACTIONS, not what they WEAR.

MEC